Guest SP-1 Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Yeah, but so is HHH. So no matter who they put "in charge", whether it's Bischoff, Gerwitz, Russo, Sullivan, Jimmy Hart, Bret Hart, or Vern Gagne's ghost, it's still the Anabolic Game who will still be pulling the strings. I dunno. Isn't the whole basis of the Triple H Power Claim that he's banging Stephie? If Bischoff is in control of RAW, Trips won't have that advantage anymore. And you know . . . maybe Bisch will stand up to him. Maybe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest SP-1 Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Yeah, but so is HHH. So no matter who they put "in charge", whether it's Bischoff, Gerwitz, Russo, Sullivan, Jimmy Hart, Bret Hart, or Vern Gagne's ghost, it's still the Anabolic Game who will still be pulling the strings. Yeah, but Trips has power likely due to his banging Stephie baby if he has any at all. If Bisch truly has the book on RAW, Trips loses that advantage. EDIT: The board is being exceptionaly ghey. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest notJames Report post Posted January 2, 2003 I will admit I have a bias against Bischoff, but it's definitely not unfounded. He had one of the biggest multimedia corporations at his beck and call and what amounted to Ted Turner's corporate ATM card, but he still couldn't make it work. It was either a case of too much or too little. The nWo would have been a perfect angle if he had a) kept it a small elite band of renegade heels (heel being the operative word, not tweeners) and b) booked a satisfying end to it where wCw finally triumphed. But he kept adding more and more bodies to the heap, diluting the formula into just another watered-down heel stable. What was so great about Vincent or Scott Norton other than doing the jobs that Hogan and Nash should have done? Where was the final blowoff? What great impact did the Wolfpac have other than feeding Nash's blow-dried ego and making Sting look like a blind sheep? Do I even have to mention nWo Nitro?!? And yes, going live for two hours was significant, but I think he didn't use the time to his advantage. With all that talent at his disposable, why was he constantly signing more and more wrestlers that he never used? Why were so many ex-WWF superstars used over the "homegrown" talent if wCw was such a great company? And if Bischoff was so good to his cruisers, why were they never given worthwhile programs or merchandising? Name me three long-lasting and enthralling cruiserweight feuds/storylines that didn't feature either Eddy Guerrero, Rey Misterio, or Chris Jericho. Don't even get me started on his predatory tactics, specifically giving away RAW spoilers and feeding Schiavone the anti-Mick Foley crap. Sure, Vince and his "Billionaire Ted" skits were equally stupid and misguided, but if your product is so good, shouldn't you be able to sell its strong points instead of jabbing at your opponent's shortcomings (imagined or otherwise)? As for the PPV-level matches on free TV, it's kinda obvious how that was a detriment to their product as a whole. Once they shot their load with Hogan v. Goldberg on Nitro, what was left for them to sell for the PPVs? Hotshotting kills wrestling promotions. This is how I base my distaste for Bischoff's booking practices. Has he learned from his mistakes? I don't know. Frankly, he hasn't earned my trust enough to give him the benefit of the doubt. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Army Eye Report post Posted January 2, 2003 From what I understand, Bischoff was so busy with his booking of the nWo (and subsequently his on-air role within it) that he neglected many of the minor midcard feuds that were going on, so he basically gave everyone carte blanche to do what they would. Thus Raven was able to do his Flock thing. It's also evident in how Jericho crafted his campaign against Goldberg, which eventually came to nothing because the higher-ups didn't think it was a credible feud. If Bischoff the Great was so good with the talent, why would he okay Jericho's tirades against the bald asshole if he was just going to cut it off at the knees? I've always heard that Goldberg was the one who vetoed the feud once it was about to come to fruition. Bischoff wanted it to happen, but Goldberg refused, so Bischoff instead offered Jericho a spot in the NWO, which he declined, so he ended up only being slighly elevated to TV-title level. And I doubt the ratings for Nitro rose solely on the strength of the nWo. They had tons of cruisers who actually wowed the crowds with wrestling instead of tired catchphrases and sign language, Goldberg's unimagined success, the Horsemen, the aforementioned Flock... If you're going to paint Bischoff as the genius behind the nWo (which he wasn't), how do you explain the Ultimate Warrior? Or the Fingerpoke of Doom? Or the B-Team? So you're saying that Bischoff should only get credit for the bad stuff and not the good? Or what? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest notJames Report post Posted January 2, 2003 The boss is the boss. Goldberg should never have been able to pull a power play. Just like SurSer '97, HBK "losing his smile", the Austin Situation, etc. And yes, the man in charge should accept the praises for his accomplishments as well as shoulder the responsibilities for his failings. Too bad one side outweighed the other too much and too often. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Joejigatame Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Goldberg didn't want to get involved with Jericho because he felt it was a comedy angle that would damage his credibility. Bischoff then wanted to end it in a Goldbergian squash match, but Jericho said no. Also, wasn't it Ted Turner's idea for Nitro, not Bischoff's? I'm pretty sure Turner wanted to go head-to-head when Vince refused to sell to him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ravenbomb Report post Posted January 2, 2003 2) Raven basically booked his own angles because all the other bookers were too busy with their nWo lovefest. That's the only reason he got over. Bischoff had zero to do with it. This is why I think they should have Raven book on Raw. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BorneAgain Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Well, as long as this doesn't mean a return of the Eric Bischoff Show I think I'll be okay with him on power on Raw. As a side note, Raven could be a good booker for Raw. In fact I believe he booked for Raw way back in 93 didn't he? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TheAnvil Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Name me three long-lasting and enthralling cruiserweight feuds/storylines that didn't feature either Eddy Guerrero, Rey Misterio, or Chris Jericho. Dean Malenko Vs. Ultimo Dragon "Sugar" Shane Helms Vs. Chavo Guerrero Jr. "Flyin'" Brian Pillman Vs. Jyushin "Thunder" Lyger I mean, who cares if they featured Eddie Guerrero, Rey Mysterio Jr or Chris Jericho? They were part of the reason why people bothered to watch the Cruiserweight division, so you can't really exclude them. I remember when Billy Kidman & Rey Mysterio Jr. were trading victories weekly, and I was still anticipating their PPV matches. They just worked well, and the matches were not always the same. They would "learn" from their previous matches. Something that the WWE should take into consideration.. especially with the "Smackdown 6." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ram Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Name me three long-lasting and enthralling cruiserweight feuds/storylines that didn't feature either Eddy Guerrero, Rey Misterio, or Chris Jericho. Would Malenko/Syxx count? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest notJames Report post Posted January 2, 2003 "Sugar" Shane Helms Vs. Chavo Guerrero Jr. I was referring to wCw during the height of their popularity, but I'll grant you that. In fact, at that point, it was probably the only thing I was even remotely interested in on the wCw side. (I hated Helms' music, though.) Did the Pillman/Lyger feud last very long? And was it an actual feud/storyline, or did they just have a lot of matches against each other? My remembrance of wCw is somewhat clouded (especially during the nWo era), so I don't know if Malenko and Syxx had any kind of meaningful feud. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Steviekick Report post Posted January 2, 2003 screw Bischoff... give Dusty Rhodes the book! Even though he had many bad ideas, he did come up with a few good ones..like Wargames Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Steviekick Report post Posted January 2, 2003 screw Bischoff... give Dusty Rhodes the book! Even though he had many bad ideas, he did come up with a few good ones..like Wargames Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Steviekick Report post Posted January 2, 2003 screw Bischoff... give Dusty Rhodes the book! Even though he had many bad ideas, he did come up with a few good ones..like Wargames Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Steviekick Report post Posted January 2, 2003 screw Bischoff... give Dusty Rhodes the book! Even though he had many bad ideas, he did come up with a few good ones..like Wargames Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Coffey Report post Posted January 2, 2003 "Sugar" Shane Helms Vs. Chavo Guerrero Jr. I was referring to wCw during the height of their popularity, but I'll grant you that. In fact, at that point, it was probably the only thing I was even remotely interested in on the wCw side. (I hated Helms' music, though.) Did the Pillman/Lyger feud last very long? And was it an actual feud/storyline, or did they just have a lot of matches against each other? My remembrance of wCw is somewhat clouded (especially during the nWo era), so I don't know if Malenko and Syxx had any kind of meaningful feud. The Pillman/Lyger feud was just a couple of matches. Like the first Nitro match and a PPV match. They were good though, and helped garner crowd interest. I'd also like to give StevieKick credit for being the first person I have ever saw quadruple post. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest geniusMoment Report post Posted January 2, 2003 Well notJames I will admit that you are right in that Bisch has not done anything to earn back my trust yet, but I am willing to give him a shot. I agree he didn't use the cruisers as well as he could have. I must disagree on the main event matches though. Main event matches doesn't mean hotshotting, it means putting on matches featuring big stars. Your right the hogan-goldberg match was a mistake because that is hotshotting. Also bisch employed the same horrible ending to every nitro for about 2 and a half years, the nwo run in. With all that said I still feel it is worth a shot, you did make me see your points though, good argument Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JasonX 0 Report post Posted January 3, 2003 Goldberg didn't want to get involved with Jericho because he felt it was a comedy angle that would damage his credibility. Bischoff then wanted to end it in a Goldbergian squash match, but Jericho said no. Also, wasn't it Ted Turner's idea for Nitro, not Bischoff's? I'm pretty sure Turner wanted to go head-to-head when Vince refused to sell to him. Actually Nitro WAS indeed Bisch's idea. You see, while Turner did want to go head-to-head with the WWF, no one would ever mention the idea of doing a live show that would air at the same time as Raw on Monday Nights because such a show would cost a shitload of money to put together and the fear amongst the various figures running WCW was that Turner would not only veto such an idea but would fire the person who suggested it because of the monetary commitment such a show would require. But Bischoff lucked out and Turner oked the proposal and the rest was history.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest notJames Report post Posted January 3, 2003 Well notJames I will admit that you are right in that Bisch has not done anything to earn back my trust yet, but I am willing to give him a shot. I agree he didn't use the cruisers as well as he could have. I must disagree on the main event matches though. Main event matches doesn't mean hotshotting, it means putting on matches featuring big stars. Your right the hogan-goldberg match was a mistake because that is hotshotting. Also bisch employed the same horrible ending to every nitro for about 2 and a half years, the nwo run in. With all that said I still feel it is worth a shot, you did make me see your points though, good argument Thanks, dude. And you're right, perhaps he deserves a shot. Hell, at this point, anything is better than the current HHHierarchy. I'm just wary of history repeating itself, especially with how well SmackDown! went last night. That show was definitely a ray of hope, and I just don't want anything to spoil it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest midnight_burn Report post Posted January 3, 2003 If Bischoff gets to book Raw it just helps Kevin Nash even more. Being buddies with both HHH and Da Bisch means Big Daddy Quad Tear will be shoved even further down our throats, another injury is the only thing that will save us from Nash dominating the main events with his shitty matches and nice hair. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jobber of the Week Report post Posted January 3, 2003 If Bischoff gets to book Raw it just helps Kevin Nash even more. How does that matter if Nash can barely even move? I think that quad tear finished it. Walking up the ramp will eventually become a problem for that guy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest caboose Report post Posted January 3, 2003 Frankly, Bischoff proved in WCW he can't keep the politics under control. So While on RAW only Triple H seems to have pull. If anyone else showed up with a modicum of power, all hell would break lose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest hiza jujigatame Report post Posted January 4, 2003 One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that Bischoff does seem to learn from his mistakes. When Bischoff came back to WCW in 2000, I remember him making a speech addressing almost every criticism against him. Most importantly, to me, anyway, one of his main points was that he would ressurect the cruiserweight division, which had been pretty much dormant since 1999. If he does that with Raw, through a trade with Smackdown or bringing up guys like Nova and Spanky, I'd probably start watching Raw again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted January 4, 2003 The last decision he did that seemed to show he was learning from his mistakes was handing all creative controll over to someone else. Any new ideas he had, were, apparently, worse than the crack-head booking of Vince Russo, so that shows you how much confidence even Eric had in his booking decisions. Vince is insane. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
