(Observer) Rock's return/RAW ratings draws

[Guest bcu1979]

Some notes from the latest Wrestling Observer:

 

A decision has not been made for Steve Austin's return. But the current plan is for both Austin and Rock to be back on tv before WrestleMania and for both to be wrestling in big matches on the show.

 

Rock is set to return to tv in February but he has only commited to a two month stay at this point - through Mania. The WWE is hoping he will stick around through July or August since he does not have any current movie roles coming up.

 

There is talk that Billy Gunn might not be able to return from his current injury that has caused some nerve damage. If not, he could become a road agent.

 

Nathan Jones is supposed to start full time on the road with the RAW crew this Monday. He's Vince McMahon's new pet project so he is expected to get a huge push. Their idea is to give him a Hannibal Lecter evil-genius type character. He would be a very intelligent guy who would then have a very dark side when he snaps.

 

(What's the point of putting him on RAW when they already have Batista and Kane is about to turn heel?)

 

Meltzer did a big analysis on the RAW ratings in the last quarter of 2002 in the latest issue. He determined that an average RAW main event over the last 3 months added 343,000 viewers. So a wrestler's performance in main events was compared to that number. The following numbers are how many viewers individual wrestlers added when they were in the main event spot.

 

Kane - 580,000

Booker T - 394,000

Triple H - 328,000

Chris Jericho - 323,000

Jeff Hardy -300,000

RVD - 273,000

Ric Flair -120,000

Shawn Michaels - 95,000

 

Interestingly enough, Meltzer also did the overall ratings and Kane was way down on the list. So fans only seemed interested in his matches when he was in the main event.

 

Meltzer's analysis was that no one is really a ratings draw, Michaels was a big flop and Flair's character has been destroyed. Flair was ranked 30th out of 34 characters in the overall ratings.

[Guest Downhome]

Some notes from the latest Wrestling Observer:

 

A decision has not been made for Steve Austin's return. But the current plan is for both Austin and Rock to be back on tv before WrestleMania and for both to be wrestling in big matches on the show.

 

Rock is set to return to tv in February but he has only commited to a two month stay at this point - through Mania. The WWE is hoping he will stick around through July or August since he does not have any current movie roles coming up.

 

There is talk that Billy Gunn might not be able to return from his current injury that has caused some nerve damage. If not, he could become a road agent.

 

Nathan Jones is supposed to start full time on the road with the RAW crew this Monday. He's Vince McMahon's new pet project so he is expected to get a huge push. Their idea is to give him a Hannibal Lecter evil-genius type character. He would be a very intelligent guy who would then have a very dark side when he snaps.

 

(What's the point of putting him on RAW when they already have Batista and Kane is about to turn heel?)

 

Meltzer did a big analysis on the RAW ratings in the last quarter of 2002 in the latest issue. He determined that an average RAW main event over the last 3 months added 343,000 viewers. So a wrestler's performance in main events was compared to that number. The following numbers are how many viewers individual wrestlers added when they were in the main event spot.

 

Kane - 580,000

Booker T - 394,000

Triple H - 328,000

Chris Jericho - 323,000

Jeff Hardy -300,000

RVD - 273,000

Ric Flair -120,000

Shawn Michaels - 95,000

 

Interestingly enough, Meltzer also did the overall ratings and Kane was way down on the list. So fans only seemed interested in his matches when he was in the main event.

 

Meltzer's analysis was that no one is really a ratings draw, Michaels was a big flop and Flair's character has been destroyed. Flair was ranked 30th out of 34 characters in the overall ratings.

Steve Austin and The Rock's return --- Good, it's what we need right now.

 

Length of Rocks stay --- If he doesn't have any movies lined up, he best as fucking hell stay untill July or August. If he doesn't, I'd cut ties with him if I was WWE.

 

Billy Gunn --- Wow, I know you guys aren't a fan but I really hope he can come back and get back with Chuck. I hate to see anyones career ended, no matter who it is.

 

Nathan Jones --- Sweet Jesus, this could be my favorite gimmick ever. It sounds like Waylon Mercy with a little Mankind thrown in, I LOVE IT SO FAR!!!!!!!

 

Ratings --- Oh my God, this Kane thing is weird as hell. I guess we can expect another run with him in the ME's. I am shocked also at HBK's low numbers, and it's also weird that RVD is so far down with even Jeff Hardy over him. Flair is also weird, as is Booker T being so high in my opinion. Good signs on this list, and not so good signs.

[Guest Kingpk]

Nathan Jones is supposed to start full time on the road with the RAW crew this Monday. He's Vince McMahon's new pet project so he is expected to get a huge push. Their idea is to give him a Hannibal Lecter evil-genius type character. He would be a very intelligent guy who would then have a very dark side when he snaps.

Wasn't that Mick's original gimmick? That didn't get over until we found out about Mick the Person instead of Mankind.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

I'm curious, can you post the numbers for the overall ratings?

 

You know, hindsight is really 20/20. I recall just after Survivor Series and people saying that Shawn Michaels being World Champion was just so wonderful because he plays a better top face than any of the current RAW roster. I'm definitely shedding no tears that he was a ratings flop.

 

"Flair's character has been destroyed". Amen. At least he isn't wrestling anymore.

[Guest tpww7]

At least Jones isn't going to be thrown on Smackdown. Raw's already horrible, might as well make it worse.

[Guest Mole]

Rock and Austin returning would be good for WWE.

 

Nathan Jones, eerr, I've never seen him wrestle, but his character seems cool. We'll see how well he does before I comment on anything.

 

That is very interesting about Kane. And no one is a real draw on Raw? I'd like to see the whole list of wrestlers, and their place on the show ratings wise. Is that possible?

[Guest AndrewTS]

Hannibal Lechter = good.

 

Hannibal Lechtor not played by Anthony Hopkins, but by a hoss wrestler named Nathan Jones = WRESTLECRAP!!

 

It will suck, but in a funny kinda way.

 

Get your jobbin' boots on Helms.

[Guest Downhome]

Nathan Jones is supposed to start full time on the road with the RAW crew this Monday. He's Vince McMahon's new pet project so he is expected to get a huge push. Their idea is to give him a Hannibal Lecter evil-genius type character. He would be a very intelligent guy who would then have a very dark side when he snaps.

Wasn't that Mick's original gimmick? That didn't get over until we found out about Mick the Person instead of Mankind.

That gimmick was way over, and MY personal favorite gimmick of all time.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Heheh

 

Vince is truly trapped in the past now. We're getting the return of goofy, over the top gimmicks again!

[Guest LaParkaMarka]

Length of Rocks stay --- If he doesn't have any movies lined up, he best as fucking hell stay untill July or August. If he doesn't, I'd cut ties with him if I was WWE.

What? Yeah, cut ties with the most mainstream guy on the roster. That makes perfect sense. WWE needs the Rock, but Dwayne Johnson sure doesn't need them anymore. They should be begging and pleading to simply have the guy for a couple of months. Say what you will about him as a wrestler, but the guy is tremendously over and could only help with the main event scene.

[Guest bcu1979]

I'm curious, can you post the numbers for the overall ratings?

The entire list would be really long. But I'll post the ones that would interest this board the most.

 

 

Steiner 360,000

Triple H 165,000

Jericho 116,000

Kane 98,000

RVD 92,000

Booker 85,000

Michaels 3,000

Bischoff - 2,000

Test -54,000

Batista - 82,000

Flair -100,000

 

There were some surprises. Victoria was 3rd on the list after Steiner and Triple H. Bubba and Stacy also did surprisingly well. But after Steiner, everyone pretty much bunches up. There's only a difference of 50,000 viewers between Bubba at #5 and Booker at #15.

[Guest Zack Malibu]

I think they were planning on another "evil" character for a while, because until he got saddled with the huge moneymaking "Bling Bling" gimmick, Bull Buchanan was doing a "Cape Fear" gimmick in OVW. Sounds like they're just taking that, thrown in with some Waylon Mercy (which was underrated IMO) and Mankind and come up with a new persona for Jones.

[Guest Downhome]

Length of Rocks stay --- If he doesn't have any movies lined up, he best as fucking hell stay untill July or August. If he doesn't, I'd cut ties with him if I was WWE.

What? Yeah, cut ties with the most mainstream guy on the roster. That makes perfect sense. WWE needs the Rock, but Dwayne Johnson sure doesn't need them anymore. They should be begging and pleading to simply have the guy for a couple of months. Say what you will about him as a wrestler, but the guy is tremendously over and could only help with the main event scene.

Coming in for one for two months is going to do nothing but pop a buyrate, that is all. After he leaves, they'll be right back in the same hole as they were before. If he isn't going to be able to take part in an actual storyline, then he might as well not come back at all. So yeah, I'd cut ties, ESPECIALLY if he isn't leaving for a movie like he has been doing in the past. If he isn't doing that, then he SHOULD stay in WWE untill he DOES have one, period.

 

I'm a huge fan of him, his matches are always entertaining in my book and I always pop for him, but WWE needs him right now, and if he has ANY chance of being there for them, then he better do it.

[Guest LaParkaMarka]

Popping a buyrate is better than nothing though. The hole they created won't be fixed by Rocky coming in, of course, but it won't exactly be hurt by it. Rocky was used last time to pretty good effect, helping elevate Brock. They could just do something similar and it would still help out.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Shame about Billy Gunn, by the way. I was never a huge fan of it, but his ring work was pretty damn good with Chuck, and the matches with 2-Count were very enjoyable, since both of them sold well for them and made them look like champs--they even jobbed to them at least on one occasion.

 

I mean...sure, there were the seven dozen times they pushed him, all failing except for DX, but he could have likely been a part of the Kliq if he'd wanted to and have been pushed regardless, but I never heard of him involved in any politics like that.

[Guest Downhome]

Popping a buyrate is better than nothing though. The hole they created won't be fixed by Rocky coming in, of course, but it won't exactly be hurt by it. Rocky was used last time to pretty good effect, helping elevate Brock. They could just do something similar and it would still help out.

No, poping a buyrate is not better than nothing, it's basicly the same. WWE has thought over and over and over again that by bringing someone in and hotshotting whatever will help, but it never does and it never will. Rocky needs to be in a program, a long standing program, to get something exciting and interesting going on. To give the fans faith that they can still produce interesting angles and the such. The fans are getting more and more pissed with him coming in for only one or two months, and eventually, this trick is not going to work anymore.

 

Besides, if he isn't going to be filming or ANYTHING like that, but still wants to be off, then something best as hell be said about it. They need him, period.

[Guest NYCTA Bus No. PA1767]

Well, I hope this will at least shut these three arguments....

 

*RVD is a draw* - Yes, I have seen this!

*HHH is not a draw in anyway* - It speaks for itself

*Hosses don't draw anything* - I give you Kane

[Guest Downhome]

Well, I hope this will at least shut these three arguments....

 

*RVD is a draw* - Yes, I have seen this!

*HHH is not a draw in anyway* - It speaks for itself

*Hosses don't draw anything* - I give you Kane

According to those numbers, RVD doesn't draw as much as HHH or Kane when in the main event.

[Guest Ram]

From what I've heard about Jones, all he has going for him is his size. Other than that, he sucks ass.

 

So, he's WWE material!

[Guest AndrewTS]

I think they were planning on another "evil" character for a while, because until he got saddled with the huge moneymaking "Bling Bling" gimmick, Bull Buchanan was doing a "Cape Fear" gimmick in OVW. Sounds like they're just taking that, thrown in with some Waylon Mercy (which was underrated IMO) and Mankind and come up with a new persona for Jones.

One problem..

 

IT'S STILL NATHAN JONES!!!

[Guest bcu1979]

I don't have a problem with Rock only coming back for a couple months if he comes back and helps elevate a new guy to main event status. If he's just going to come back to wrestle Goldberg, then I agree they aren't getting any long term traction from Rock's comeback.

 

But who can blame Rock for not wanting to stick around. He's making millions of dollars in a much safer occupation, while not having to deal with all the politics that have turned the WWE into a huge, ugly mess?

 

Who needs to be on the Triple H show when they can be the star in big budget action flicks?

[Guest NYCTA Bus No. PA1767]

Well, I hope this will at least shut these three arguments....

 

*RVD is a draw* - Yes, I have seen this!

*HHH is not a draw in anyway* - It speaks for itself

*Hosses don't draw anything* - I give you Kane

According to those numbers, RVD doesn't draw as much as HHH or Kane when in the main event.

That was my point.

[Guest Downhome]

I don't have a problem with Rock only coming back for a couple months if he comes back and helps elevate a new guy to main event status. If he's just going to come back to wrestle Goldberg, then I agree they aren't getting any long term traction from Rock's comeback.

 

But who can blame Rock for not wanting to stick around. He's making millions of dollars in a much safer occupation, while not having to deal with all the politics that have turned the WWE into a huge, ugly mess?

 

Who needs to be on the Triple H show when they can be the star in big budget action flicks?

Yes, I can blame him. He has a job to do for WWE, and he needs to do it. If he's going to think like that, they might as well free up money for those who are already there, and for some new young stars.

[Guest Downhome]

Well, I hope this will at least shut these three arguments....

 

*RVD is a draw* - Yes, I have seen this!

*HHH is not a draw in anyway* - It speaks for itself

*Hosses don't draw anything* - I give you Kane

According to those numbers, RVD doesn't draw as much as HHH or Kane when in the main event.

That was my point.

I realized that right after I posted that.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Well, I hope this will at least shut these three arguments....

 

*RVD is a draw* - Yes, I have seen this!

*HHH is not a draw in anyway* - It speaks for itself

*Hosses don't draw anything* - I give you Kane

According to those numbers, RVD doesn't draw as much as HHH or Kane when in the main event.

That was my point.

Out of those three, which ones have been pushed, pushed, pushed, and pushed some more, given verbal blowjobs by the announcers, destroy multiple wrestlers with ease?

 

HHH and Kane.

 

Who won a TLC tag match vs. 6 other guys without a tag team partner?

 

Kane.

 

Who hasn't been given a serious push as of late, and when he had the main event slot, no one, smark or mark, would buy as having a chance of hell in winning? Whose recent main event slot was versus HBK, who was pretty much ratings death?

 

RVD.

 

Not to come off as a total mark for RVD, but you can't compare guys who have been pushed (or not pushed) in completely different ways, and gauge any possible future potential from them by that.

 

I'll conceed RVD isn't a draw now, because they don't want him to be. They have no interest in pushing him. However, I do know that when tickets weren't selling well in Honolulu, they turned Steiner vs. HHH into Steiner and RVD vs. HHH and Batista.

 

Take that as you will.

[Guest razazteca]

exactly what Kane matches were the big draws? TLC4 and Elimation Chamber build up or the short live tag champion reign?

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Yes, I can blame him. He has a job to do for WWE, and he needs to do it. If he's going to think like that, they might as well free up money for those who are already there, and for some new young stars.

Well, considering that Vince makes money off of Rock's movies and Dwayne had his blessing to do it anyway, McMahon would be insane to dump Rock now.

[Guest teke184]

Well, I hope this will at least shut these three arguments....

 

*RVD is a draw* - Yes, I have seen this!

*HHH is not a draw in anyway* - It speaks for itself

*Hosses don't draw anything* - I give you Kane

First, keep in mind that all of these numbers are based off the last 16 RAW shows.

 

 

RVD's split his nine main events, coming up big in four of them and badly in five of them. I'd say that some of the lowest were due to who he was paired with.

 

On his poorer-drawing main events, there were the RVD vs. Big Show(ratings death) vs. Jericho vs. Jeff Hardy match, the HHH and Jericho vs. Ric Flair (ratings death) and RVD match, and the RVD vs. HBK (the BLACK PLAGUE of main-event ratings). Of everyone in the main event scene, HBK's numbers are the most pathetic by far, with even the over-the-hill and jobbed out Ric Flair drawing 30,000 more fans than him.

 

The three highest drawing main events, BTW, were the TLC 4 match (Kane, Jericho, Christian, RVD, Dreamer, Bubba, Spike), then the Steiner-HHH confrontation, then the Jim Ross and Jerry Lawler vs. Christian and Lance Storm match. I'm not sure how to explain that last one, but the TLC match was the big draw in the first one and Steiner, as the fresh face in the ME, was the big draw in the second one.

 

On top of that, RVD's midcard numbers have decreased lately because he's been facing Batista and Three Minute Warning, who are some of the biggest ratings losers on the show. The only people who have lost more fans than them on RAW is the Big Show and he's now on SD instead.

 

 

As for HHH's drawing ability, he's had four main events that have drawn and seven which haven't. As Meltzer says, that's okay but NOT for the push he's been given. Hell, Victoria only drew about 10,000 less fans than him (164,000 fans for him and 153,000 for her) and she jobbed to JACKIE somewhat cleanly.

 

On the subject of Kane, Kane was unlike most hosses in that he had PERSONALITY up until the Katie Vick mess. Now he's just the average Angry, Pissed Off Big Man again.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

exactly what Kane matches were the big draws? TLC4 and Elimation Chamber build up or the short live tag champion reign?

Probably TLC4 as that was a ratings winner. That, the casket match and the match where he won the IC title are the only recent times that I can actually recall Kane being in the main event.

[Guest bcu1979]

Yes, I can blame him. He has a job to do for WWE, and he needs to do it. If he's going to think like that, they might as well free up money for those who are already there, and for some new young stars.

I doubt Rock's salary is a big expense for the WWE. Vince gets a nice cut from all his movies that should cover his downside. They also still sell Rock merchandise.

 

And Rock has more than done his share to help the WWE in the future. He helped solidify Lesnar when he put him over clean at SummerSlam. He tapped out to the Crossface when Benoit first jumped to Smackdown. Kurt Angle beat Rock to win his first world title. Jericho beat Rock for his first world title win. Rock put Jericho over 3 times on PPV. No one besides Austin and Triple H have more big match wins over Rock than Jericho.

 

He's the least selfish main eventer since Mick Foley. But (with the exception of Lesnar's win) it was all wasted thanks to certain out-of-control power trips.

 

All the reports are that morale is down - especially on RAW - and payoffs are down.

 

Do you think any other wrestler would have a different attitude if they were in Rock's position?