Guest Lord of The Curry Posted January 8, 2003 Report Posted January 8, 2003 *Spoilers ahead for the book* I just picked up the book and it's a really good read, great photos and nicely written articles, though some of them overlap each other. The book was based on a number of factors, including in-ring skill, drawing power, longevity, entertainment factor and a number of others. Take a look and discuss. 1. Ric Flair 2. Lou Thesz 3. Rikidozan 4. Antonio Inoki 5. Hulk Hogan 6. Andre the Giant 7. El Santo 8. Giant Baba 9. Steve Austin 10. Buddy Rogers 11. Frank Gotch 12. Jim Londos 13. Ed Lewis 14. Stan Hansen 15. Bruno Sammartino 16. The Rock 17. Goregous George 18. Bruiser Brody 19. Riki Choshu 20. Mitsuharu Misawa 21. Verne Gagne 22. Jumbo Tsuruta 23. Terry Funk 24. Mil Mascaras 25. Bret Hart 26. Dory Funk Jr. 27. Tiger Mask 28. Blue Demon 29. Perro Aguayo 30. Nick Bockwinkel 31. Dusty Rhodes 32. Johnny Valentine 33. Freddie Blassie 34. Vader 35. George Hackenschmidt 36. Jushin Liger 37. Toshiaki Kawada 38. Keiji Muto 39. Jack Brisco 40. Harley Race 41. El Hijo del Santo 42. Tatsumi Fujinami 43. Danny Hodge 44. Akira Maeda 45. Chigusa Nagayo 46. Ricky Steamboat 47. Shawn Michaels 48. Shinya Hashimoto 49. Ray Stevens 50. Randy Savage 51. Gene Kiniski 52. Nobuhiko Takada 53. Mick Foley 54. Genichiro Tenryu 55. The Crusher 56. Dick the Bruiser 57. Canek 58. Antonio Rocca 59. The Sheik 60. Den Leo Jonathon 61. Dynamite Kid 62. The Undertaker 63. El Solitario 64. Billy Graham 65. Jerry Lawler 66. Roddy Piper 67. Ultimo Dragon 68. Billy Robinson 69. Jaguar Yokota 70. Lioness Asuka 71. Bobo Brazil 72. Karl Gotch 73. Bert Assirati 74. Salvador Gori Guerrero 75. Bill Longson 76. Killer Kowalski 77. Mildred Burke 78. Abdullah the Butcher 79. The Destroyer 80. Atsushi Onita 81. Ted Dibiase 82. Earl McCready 83. Pat O'Connor 84. Fritz Von Erich 85. Wahoo McDaniel 86. Billy Watson 87. Leroy McGuirk 88. Mad Dog Vachon 89. Yvon Robert 90. Bronko Nagurski 91. Dos Caras 92. Edouard Carpentier 93. Rayo de Jalisco 94. Stanislaus Zbysko 95. Sting 96. Pat Patterson 97. Masahiro Chono 98. Dara Singh 99. Jess Ventura 100. Eddie Graham Well, there ya have it. Overall a very good list, with some people I thought being higher lower and lower got higher. My one main beef is Jumbo Tsuruta at #22. He had everything you'd think to be a top 10 guy, longevity, skill, athleticism, drawing power, influence. Live Audio Wrestling in Toronto has the author John Molinero on in a few weeks and I'm gonna call in and call him on that, because I'm curious about that one.
Guest BAR Posted January 8, 2003 Report Posted January 8, 2003 I thought Dynamite should have been higher but looking at what the factors the list was based on, maybe he shouldn't.
Guest razazteca Posted January 8, 2003 Report Posted January 8, 2003 #93 Rayo de Jalisco, I hope this is the orginal one not the fat slob on current tv.
Guest Dopey Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 Hulk Hogan #5??? Retarded. He's at least 2. I don't care what critiia you use, the biggest name ever in 'sports entertainment' does not deserve #5. I'm going to borrow it from Dangerous A. I will not buy it. To the Authors
Guest CED Ordonez Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 Picking 100 wrestlers based on the thousands upon thousands of wrestlers that have wrestled worldwide throughout history is probably one the hardest wrestling lists to compile. This is going to be an interesting read for explanations of why they feel wrestlers fell into certain spots. I'm a bit disappointed that of the 4 women on the list (Nagayo, Yokota, Asuka, Burke), Akira Hokuto isn't one of them, but it's their list and it's based on so many factors, so the list is bound to step on a few toes.
Guest RavishingRickRudo Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 They purposely put Hogan at #5. They will rationalize it that Thesz, Rikidozan, and Inoki had more impact on the industry but let's call a spade a spade: these guys are flair marks. All 3 of em (Marek and Meltzer edited). That makes them automatically anti-hogan so they put him at #5 for the sake of putting him at #5.
Guest Coffin Surfer Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 This list looks like drawing power was factored about 75% to 90% in the rankings. And I don't give a damn what you factor into it, but Dusty Rhodes better than Kawada at anything positive is bullshit.
Guest Lord of The Curry Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 If drawing power was a factor I don't know if Buddy Rogers or Frank Gotch would've gotten ranked as high as they did. Flair being #1 was terribly, annoyingly predictable, as he seems to be hallowed ground when it comes to #1 lists, untouchable and unquestionable. People more often then not say Flair out of fear of being ragged on or because they don't know better, which bothers me beyond measure.
Guest Kahran Ramsus Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 Saying Flair was not the best wrestler ever is sort of akin to saying Wayne Gretzky was not the best NHL player of all time.
Guest Lord of The Curry Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 Kahran- I'm confused. What are you getting at? That Flair shouldn't be questioned? Also, you could easily make a case for Gordy Howe as best NHL player of all time. I wouldn't, but I know many who would.
Guest treble charged Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 Personally, I'd say that either Mario Lemieux or Bobby Orr are better than Gordie Howe and would therefore have more 'right' to challenge Gretzky for #1 of all time. But anyway, more on topic, it's no secret that Meltzer and Marek (who I dislike tremendously) don't like Hogan at all, so I think them putting Hogan at #5 (which I guess they themselves really didn't do, as they weren't the authors) is kind of just a nod to his drawing power. Because, really, in terms of 'wrestling', that's all Hogan's really got going for him.
Guest Andy Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 I would have put Dynamite Kid higher up. Cheers, Andy
Guest Agent of Oblivion Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 Hokuto really should've been on there.
Guest Lord of The Curry Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 At the back of the book there's a section called "The Next Ten" which I suppose is all the ten who will next have a chance at making the list. In no order, they are: Jun Akiyama Kurt Angle Chris Benoit HHH Chris Jericho Kenta Kobashi Yuji Nagata Satoshi Kojima Manami Toyota Kazushi Sakuraba
Guest Coffin Surfer Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 If drawing power was a factor I don't know if Buddy Rogers or Frank Gotch would've gotten ranked as high as they did. Flair being #1 was terribly, annoyingly predictable, as he seems to be hallowed ground when it comes to #1 lists, untouchable and unquestionable. People more often then not say Flair out of fear of being ragged on or because they don't know better, which bothers me beyond measure. Maybe they only used the drawing power factor on certain people, who else can you explain Hogan, Andre, Baba ahead of great workers that could actually draw as well like Jumbo, Misawa, and Kawada. And I agree with you about Flair, he can't really touch Jumbo who was a draw in three individual decades, not to mention he put out MOTYC in every one of those decades, and he was hell of alot funer to watch than Flair too but that's just me.
Guest ConspiracyVictim Posted January 10, 2003 Report Posted January 10, 2003 Maybe they only used the drawing power factor on certain people, who else can you explain Hogan, Andre, Baba ahead of great workers that could actually draw as well like Jumbo, Misawa, and Kawada. And I agree with you about Flair, he can't really touch Jumbo who was a draw in three individual decades, not to mention he put out MOTYC in every one of those decades, and he was hell of alot funer to watch than Flair too but that's just me. Here is how Meltzer would rationalize it. Sure Jumbo put on many freat MOTYC but Flair worked more consistently with a much harder schedule. You must remember Flair, at times, was working 2 or so shows a day and worked (according to Meltzer) 300 matches or more a year. Sure Jumbo was a draw for longer than Flair but Flair was a draw in NWA Mid Atlantic, AWA, Mid South, and WWF. Whether Flair was alot more fun to watch is really up to each person to decide for themselves. Many people will say that Flair was predictable and he worked the same match for just about every opponent, but then again, it worked for him. Some might even argue that there are better American wrestlers based on pure ability such as The Destroyer...but none of these guys had to work the same schedule as Flair and I think he deserves a place at the top of the list. Hogan on the other hand, should be where he is...#5. Flair and Inoki have both outdrawn Hogan by a good amount. Rikidozan had more of an impact that Hogan ever did and Thesz beats Hogan in Longevity and in ring skill. Im not putting down Hogan but I just think in reality he deserves his spot where he is on the list.
Guest Lord of The Curry Posted January 10, 2003 Report Posted January 10, 2003 In case any of you go to the Wrestling Classics board, there's a really good thread that some guy started about Flair and whether or not he's a legend. Really good read, makes you think twice about Flair as G.O.A.T. The broomstick formula really gets exposed here as well.
Guest Downhome Posted January 10, 2003 Report Posted January 10, 2003 In case any of you go to the Wrestling Classics board, there's a really good thread that some guy started about Flair and whether or not he's a legend. Really good read, makes you think twice about Flair as G.O.A.T. The broomstick formula really gets exposed here as well. I hope you don't mind, but I "borrowed" your posting this and made a post about it over there to get their opinions on it, it should be interesting. I find it odd that The Dynamite Kid was not ranked at least a bit higher. I also find it somewhat odd that Chris Benoit isn't on there at all, but I can understand why he is not considering he has yet to have a really good run as a champion and the such.
Guest Ravenbomb Posted January 10, 2003 Report Posted January 10, 2003 I don't know all the places, I just skimmed over it, but put Thesz at number 1 and Dynamite in the top 5 and I'm cool with it as far as I saw.
Guest Downhome Posted January 10, 2003 Report Posted January 10, 2003 I wonder if HHH will blame Tough Enough for not making this list. :D
Guest Lord of The Curry Posted January 10, 2003 Report Posted January 10, 2003 It's a good book and a good list but there are some things on it that baffles me, the exclusion of Benoit being on of them. The guy was never a draw or an ace champion for a company but there's a few things he has on everybody else in that book 1) Workrate- Unparalelled. Very few in that list can match or beat him. 2) Influence- Ask any JH wrestler in North America who their influences are and I guarantee the name Chris Benoit will come up. Those two should be big enough for him to make the list, even if it's 94 but I guess not.
Guest AlwaysPissedOff Posted January 10, 2003 Report Posted January 10, 2003 To be honest, I wouldn't put Dynamite over Austin or some of the other guys ahead of him. Also, I think Hogan is right where he should be, so I have no problem there. I got beef with Taker being on the list since when you really think about it, he hasn't done jackshit during his tenure in the WWF/E. And finally, no Eddy? What the fuck? If they are going to suggest that Angle and Jericho are going to be the next 10, then where the hell is Guerrero at?
Guest Downhome Posted January 10, 2003 Report Posted January 10, 2003 I just want to know where in the living heck is Tiger Jeet Sighn on this list!?
Guest Lord of The Curry Posted January 10, 2003 Report Posted January 10, 2003 APO- Taker makes the list because of longevity and drawing power. He was a good draw for WWE(F) and is the most enduring character in the federations history.
Guest AlwaysPissedOff Posted January 10, 2003 Report Posted January 10, 2003 I disagree with that, though. His longevity is due to the fact that he'd be completely worthless without the "Undertaker" gimmick and I don't evenr remember him drawing any significant amount of money unless he was hitched to more famous workers like Austin, Rock, and Hogan.
Guest Lord of The Curry Posted January 10, 2003 Report Posted January 10, 2003 I disagree with that, though. His longevity is due to the fact that he'd be completely worthless without the "Undertaker" gimmick and I don't evenr remember him drawing any significant amount of money unless he was hitched to more famous workers like Austin, Rock, and Hogan. Well, the book is recognizing the work of Mark Calloway as The Undertaker. Agreed, he's be worthless without the gimmick, but you can't deny that his staying power in the WWF is nothing short of amazing.
Guest snuffbox Posted January 10, 2003 Report Posted January 10, 2003 I have to agree, at least with the #1 spot. I know its gotten repetitive but I think Ric Flair deserves the top spot on any of these lists. He basically was the NWA for over 15 years, keeping it afloat, and somewhat successful, in the ocean of WWF's Hulkamania. The WWF was huge because it collectively caught the public imagination due to Vince's past business genius. Flair and the NWA thrived with wrestling, with workrate and storylines. He is probably the strongest touring champion of all time, based on his schedule and his performance. The WrestlingClassics thread poses several strong arguements for/against Flair. I definitly feel that the evidence, the history, shows that Flair is the best ever. Strong mic skills, good in ring workrate, adaptability (see brawls with Funk etc, and matchups with greatly varying challengers), capability of carrying almost any opponent to a good match, drawing power, unbelievable charisma, and his longevity.
Guest Sassquatch Posted January 10, 2003 Report Posted January 10, 2003 *shakes head* What kind of requirements and guidelines did this list use when ranking guys? If it was based on money than Hogan is higher than Flair. If it was based on wrestling ability than Flair is higher than Hogan. Once you get past 50, the other rankings are meaningless because you have too many insignificant rankings that no one cares about. These giant lists are all masturbatory and pointless.
Guest dreamer420 Posted January 11, 2003 Report Posted January 11, 2003 I can't agree with Jesse Ventura as 99. He was never much of a talent IMO and only really shined once he was in the broadcast booth. I would also put Dynamite Kid higher on the list too. He was too great of a talent to not be higher.
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