Benoit v Angle "Slow Start"

[Guest Tim Cooke]

I have had quite a few laughs reading people on this board who are crying about the "slow start" of Benoit/Angle or that they chose not to roll around on the mat.

 

First, the "Slow Start."

 

It is called building a match. They took their time in establishing the control of the match. The teases of the sharpshooter finally leading to the sharpshooter is straight out of "Misawa/Kawada/Jumbo/Baba" school of psychology.

 

I was so happy when they decided to not go with the mat work at the beginning. In the last 2 matches, that mat work was nothing but masturbatory stuff for the crowd so they wouldn't get bored early on.

 

If you want to nit pick the match, take a look at an early Angle transition when out of no where he just throws Benoit into the turnbuckle. It is not a bad transition per say, but it does look akward. Or take a look at Angle's late pinfall covers in the match where even though he is selling like he is dead, he can still roll up Benoit's one leg.

 

But not to digress from the actual greatness of the match which included the best double clothesline knockdown that I have seen in a match in the 2000's. The ending worked on many levels.

 

Here's hoping they don't have a rematch at NWO...someone even mentioned a ladder match. Spare me. Let Angle go on to Lesnar, Benoit go on to Rock, and Team Angle go on to Rey Jr/Edge.

 

Tim

 

(I also have had a lot of laughs at HHH's "Great" run in 2000 posts but that is another issue)

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

"(I also have had a lot of laughs at HHH's "Great" run in 2000 posts but that is another issue)"

And that is all your opinion if you didn't like the matches.

[Guest Brian]

They were flawed.

[Guest bob_barron]

I was happy they also didn't do the matwork at the beginning since they had done it so many times.

 

Oh and was there a point to your little line at the end? No. You started a topic about it so just get over it- some of us enjoyed HHH's matches in 2000. You and other people didn't. Okay?

[Guest Downhome]

I don't see how anyone could possibly fault the mat for the "slow start", I just don't.

[Guest bob_barron]

I fault it for being a bit slow in the middle and I kinda am getting tired of the Germans spot

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

I don't care if they were flawed! Every match has flaws! I'm starting to get annoyed with the fact that when someone says they enjoyed a match and IN THERE OPINION they thought it was a good match someone else jumps on there high horse and says "I find it laughable that you even liked that match! Hahaha! I can name several matches that were much better! The work was pedestrian and they were flawed! And you call yourself a wrestling fan! HAHAHA! My opinion is the correct one!" it's so smarmy and annoying. Look if you didn't find the matches good that's fine. But some of us despite the flaws liked them and that doesn't make you any smarter of a wrestling fan. It just means you have different tastes. Understand?

[Guest The Old Me]

(I also have had a lot of laughs at HHH's "Great" run in 2000 posts but that is another issue)

I don't care if you liked it or not, I did.

[Guest nikowwf]

People complain about everything. You can have a 5 star match, wonderful and perfect ine very way and someone will find one 5 second spot which was off and complain about it.

 

Marks live to whine.

Niko

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

I always wondered. If you had like one wish. And you wised that the WWE would have the perfect match. The greatest match ever. There was no disputing it either that this match was the best(i mean you used a magical wish and so it is PERFECT) how many people would say that it wasn't good and that the WWE doesn't have good matches.

[Guest Brian]

No such thing as perfect. Perfection is a fleeting moment. Once you have it, it's not perfect anymore.

 

Anyways, alot of Triple H's matches then were the same now. The brawling was light and weak, mostly out of place and done as a placeholder in the match. He bumped like he did now and sold like he did now, the only difference he actually sold for his opponents and made them look better than now. His pacing was on and off.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Yes well something changed. Because I notice a big difference in those matches then and the matches now. He got noticeably slower and the quality of his opponents has dropped. I notice a difference which is why I like his matches then and dislike the ones now.

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

However he isn't any less smarter of a worker now than he was in 2000. A smart worker could easily overcome the fact he's slow down and bulked up. But, it has been revealed that the reason HHH was having fun matches in 2000 was because he could work fast and keep the ADD boys interested, now that he moves slow he can't be entertaining to save his life. I would have to watch each of the individual matches again, but now seeing that he has no idea what the hell good psychology is, I am starting to think maybe people were working hard to make him look good. Hence the bitterness towards him from the Rock, perhaps.

[Guest XdojimeX]

Totally agreed. I was surprised people we're crapping on the early part of the match. Aside from some of the brawling being a little chippy, its what helped make it great.

 

"It is called building a match. They took their time in establishing the control of the match. The teases of the sharpshooter finally leading to the sharpshooter is straight out of "Misawa/Kawada/Jumbo/Baba" school of psychology."

 

Exactly. The sharpshooter tease was smart because a) its a credible hold with the fans b) it highlights Angle's previous injury (and the Benoit ankle lock later in the bout) without overwhelming the match as the focus c) it had a payoff that closed out the first act and lead into the heart of the match. I was beginning to think Benoit had given up on trying to throw in touches like this in a WWE setting, but this was really cool.

 

The apron ddt was wicked too. The whole tease and buildup to the 3/4th headbutt was tremendous.

 

"I was so happy when they decided to not go with the mat work at the beginning. In the last 2 matches, that mat work was nothing but masturbatory stuff for the crowd so they wouldn't get bored early on."

 

Yeah, they needed to ditch that here. The dueling and parity had run its course, the stakes we're raised here and it was time to build to bombs like they did. But I disagree the amatuer sections didn't serve a purpose in the earlier matches. Style over substance but it still had its purpose in differentiating these two from everyone else on the cards and served as an early tease for the CCF.

 

"Or take a look at Angle's late pinfall covers in the match where even though he is selling like he is dead, he can still roll up Benoit's one leg."

 

I thought Angle's selling and to a lesser extent Benoit's in the finishing stretch was too accelerated in general. Hell, Angle was positively Kobashi-esque after the transition from the big headbutt. But this is WWE post Bret Hart selling and you're not going to get beyond a certain level. Its kind of like they bridged that gap between Hart level work and the (flawed, watered down) paramiters set by the main event style built for Austin and Rock. Whats great about it though is they didn't need any of the gimmicked spots, run-ins or listless crowd brawling that have been the staple of the style for so long to instill the drama. They made it their own.

 

I can see the complaints about the cliched german sequence, but I enjoyed it here more then any other time in their matches. They pretty muched burned it off in those filler matches on smackdown (awful booking) but here they built the near falls around the sequence instead of making them the meat of it like they usually do. And if you watch close they did change it up a bit.

 

The headlock was traditional and well placed by Angle. Its only a rest hold if they're resting from nowhere with no where to go.

 

Wow I haven't geeked out to a match like that in awhile.

 

"But not to digress from the actual greatness of the match which included the best double clothesline knockdown that I have seen in a match in the 2000's. The ending worked on many levels."

 

Yup, boss match.

[Guest HartFan86]

Tim, what's your star rating of Benoit/Angle?

 

And also the double knockdown was pretty sweet...my friend and I got our whole section to start chanting the numbers for the 10 count until eventually everyone did it in the arena. I'm not saying I started it, but I did for my part of the building.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

4 1/2.

 

It is easily the best US match I have seen since 4/11/99 Benoit/Malenko v Raven/Saturn. Austin/Benoit from Raw is up there but lacks the finish and the Smackdown match is way to long and way to goofy for my tastes.

 

Benoit/Angle from 1/19/03, AmDrag v AJ Styles from 11/9/02, AmDrag v Paul London from 12/7/02, and 9/2/02 Vampiro/Shocker v Los Guerreros Infernales would probably be my top 4 men's matches of 2000's.

 

Tim

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Personally, I'd like to see the two do a really intense brawl. Both men can do that style without any trouble, and it's something we've never seen from them. Sometime later this year, they need to do a match where their hatred for each other has totally boiled over, and they go out and potato the shit out of each other for our enjoyment.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

(I also have had a lot of laughs at HHH's "Great" run in 2000 posts but that is another issue)

Wow. You managed to pack in THAT MUCH flamebait in just one sentence. Congratulations! There is no way I could top that.

 

Anyway, HHH had a pretty good run compared to expectations. Consider that they did the whole Ironman match with no run-ins to the end. I think EVERYONE was expecting run-ins, backstage shenanigans, angle developments occuring out of nowhere, just about ANYTHING to hide the fact that neither Rock or HHH looked like they could go any longer than 35 minutes or so.

 

...And yet, somehow, they did. It's not a perfect hour, and it's not a pretty one either, but there you go.

[Guest TheGame2705]

4 1/2.

 

It is easily the best US match I have seen since 4/11/99 Benoit/Malenko v Raven/Saturn. Austin/Benoit from Raw is up there but lacks the finish and the Smackdown match is way to long and way to goofy for my tastes.

 

Tim

uh Benoit/Malenko vs. Raven/Saturn was one of the best US matches? You say Benoit/Austin had a bad finish. I think that Spring Stampede Match had one of the worst finishes ever. Arn Anderson casually walks in the ring, talks to the referee, places down the chair on Saturn or Raven's face, continues to talk, and leaves the ring. HORRIBLE Finish.

[Guest godthedog]

not to kick a man when he's already being argued with on so many different levels, but i totally disagree with making a rematch at NWO. benoit would of course lose it, and there's no way he could come closer to it than he came at the rumble. with the match he gave and the reaction they got, he NEEDS to win his next title shot or his upward momentum will be destroyed and he'll be labelled as the spunky upper midcarder who comes close but can never actually deliver. they need to strike while the iron is hot and, if not give him a title, at least give him some kind of meaningful big win (over, say, undertaker or rock).

[Guest Dmann2000]

not to kick a man when he's already being argued with on so many different levels, but i totally disagree with making a rematch at NWO. benoit would of course lose it, and there's no way he could come closer to it than he came at the rumble. with the match he gave and the reaction they got, he NEEDS to win his next title shot or his upward momentum will be destroyed and he'll be labelled as the spunky upper midcarder who comes close but can never actually deliver. they need to strike while the iron is hot and, if not give him a title, at least give him some kind of meaningful big win (over, say, undertaker or rock).

I was thinking he needs a 'respect' feud with Undertaker culminating in a win at Wrestlemania. Don't think Mark would let Benoit beat him? I think Mark would have no problem letting Benoit look like the pitbull who won't quit and breaks his WM record, because Benoit has respect from the boys in the back. I think a Benoit fued could light a fire under his ass in fact.

[Guest Dmann2000]

In fact the image of Benoit toe to toe with Undertaker (despite being a foot shorter) and yet not backing down an inch, showing all his aggression and emotion gives me goosebumps.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

he NEEDS to win his next title shot or his upward momentum will be destroyed and he'll be labelled as the spunky upper midcarder who comes close but can never actually deliver.

I know. Look how much wonders that moniker has done for Chris Jericho and Rob Van Dam.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"uh Benoit/Malenko vs. Raven/Saturn was one of the best US matches? You say Benoit/Austin had a bad finish. I think that Spring Stampede Match had one of the worst finishes ever. Arn Anderson casually walks in the ring, talks to the referee, places down the chair on Saturn or Raven's face, continues to talk, and leaves the ring. HORRIBLE Finish."

 

I said the Benoit/Angle match was the best US match I have seen since the Spring Stampede Tag Match.

 

And about the ending to that match. It was CLASSIC NWA SOUTHERN STYLE HEEL TAG TEAM FINISH. Arn was Cornette, Benoit was Eaton, and Malenko was Lane in putting over their opponents but being better cheaters in the end.

 

"Personally, I'd like to see the two do a really intense brawl."

 

Bring in Bobby Eaton to help Angle with his punches and I will be down for an all out brawl.

 

Tim

[Guest TheHulkster]

Not only was it a great match, it had the most disgusting snot rocket i've ever seen. Just sprayed all over Angle's face.

[Guest bob_barron]

And that's what's important in the end.

[Guest CheesalaIsGood]

I'm sure somebody could find a flaw in the fact that Angle pretty much stepped on Benoits head while putting on the Anklelock. So what though? It may not have been perfect but the match had just about everything most of the hardcore fans have been asking for. Benoit in a title match. A clean finish. Big respect at the end.

 

Speaking of the ovation at the end... On the heels of Benoits promo, and coming SO close to winning the title. I can see a really good payoff down the road of Benoit winning the title and the reference to this rumble match as Benoit is the guy who didn't let a defeat keep him down making the title win all that much sweeter.