Has there been a match that echoes....

[Guest Dmann2000]

We're heard many wrestlers speak in awe of those two series of matches, I'm just wondering has anyone seen a match that they feel echoes these two classics. Or if not obviously homaging, then any match you've seen, perhaps from the last few years with the emotion/technical/right booking as these two?

[Guest Downhome]

First of all, while the Steamboat/Savage match was great for it's time, in the big picture it's highly overrated. The Flair/Steamboat series (which went on for just under twenty years) really stood the test of time.

 

There have been plenty of match ups that come close to these.

[Guest Dmann2000]

I think what's great about Savage/Steamboat is external factors beyond just the wrestling in the match. The crowd (75,000+ chanting 'Steamboat' is a pretty cool thing to hear), the size of Silverdome, the emotion from both men, each guy wanting every move they did to make an impact. Sure to hear years later that the match was planned point by point and reheased in house shows leading up to the event kinda diminishes its aura (compared to Flair/Steamboat which Ricky said he preferred because of the improv involved in it). But I wouldn't call Savage/Steamboat overrated, just cause the overall impact still brings a big smile to my face.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Choshu and Co v Tsuruta and Co

Tsuruta v Tenyru

Stan Hanson's "1993: vs. the AJPW Natives

Misawa/Kawada

 

All of those series of matches have at least 2-3 matches that are better than the BEST Flair v Steamboat (4/2/89).

 

Tim

[Guest Dmann2000]

Choshu and Co v Tsuruta and Co

Tsuruta v Tenyru

Stan Hanson's "1993: vs. the AJPW Natives

Misawa/Kawada

 

All of those series of matches have at least 2-3 matches that are better than the BEST Flair v Steamboat (4/2/89).

 

Tim

Wow. When someone says there's about a dozen matches better than Flair/Steamboat, you KNOW they're a puro mark.

 

(Not a knock on you at all Cooke, hell I'm the guy who's favorite match is the 1992 Royal Rumble so I'm not much of a good judge of great wrestling)

[Guest Dace59]

New matches have the chance to far better than what has come before.

 

They have new moves and styles to use. New talent, and they can look back at all the classics gone before them, and look to waht the can use/improve.

[Guest wolverine]

There's a lot more than a dozen matches better than Flair/Steamboat. Using that match as a measuring stick of classic wrestling is a clear indictator that you haven't seen enough of it.

[Guest Jubuki]

I'll take "Bob Backlund and Terry Funk matches that spank Flair/Steamboat like a two-bit whore," Alex...

[Guest godthedog]

wait...you mean terry funk used to be GOOD?

 

damn. you learn something new everyday.

[Guest wolverine]

Yeah, Terry had this, like, really awesome match with Jumbo Tsuruta in 1976 for the NWA world heavyweight title. But you wouldn't be asking this kind of question if you had seen it, now would you?

[Guest Dmann2000]

Yeah, Terry had this, like, really awesome match with Jumbo Tsuruta in 1976 for the NWA world heavyweight title. But you wouldn't be asking this kind of question if you had seen it, now would you?

Surely you're not saying you're better off having seen this match, are you? Surely you're not saying that?

[Guest godthedog]

Yeah, Terry had this, like, really awesome match with Jumbo Tsuruta in 1976 for the NWA world heavyweight title. But you wouldn't be asking this kind of question if you had seen it, now would you?

it was a joke, referring to how much terry funk deteriorated. i didn't expect anybody to actually respond to it.

[Guest Breetai]

In about 10 years I predict people will be talking of Angle/Beniot in the same tones.

[Guest godthedog]

In about 10 years I predict people will be talking of Angle/Beniot in the same tones.

doubtful. their unforgiven match will probably have enormous significance for having a heel/heel match go over with such resounding success (which might be the only time a match like that has ever gotten such a reaction), and the rumble i think will be remembered by the smarks as the high water mark of benoit's wwf career, but the matches are too flawed to have the same flair/steamboat aura. you have to look pretty hard to find flaws in the flair/steamboat series, while the blemishes on angle/benoit's 2 best matches are pretty easily visible.

[Guest Breetai]

In about 10 years I predict people will be talking of Angle/Beniot in the same tones.

doubtful. their unforgiven match will probably have enormous significance for having a heel/heel match go over with such resounding success (which might be the only time a match like that has ever gotten such a reaction), and the rumble i think will be remembered by the smarks as the high water mark of benoit's wwf career, but the matches are too flawed to have the same flair/steamboat aura. you have to look pretty hard to find flaws in the flair/steamboat series, while the blemishes on angle/benoit's 2 best matches are pretty easily visible.

Example?

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Yes, please list all these flaws.

 

Then I will list the flaws of 2 of the 3 1989 Flair v Steamboat matches.

 

Tim

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

After over a year of puro viewing, I rewatched the 89 Flair and Steamboat seires a few weeks back. Needless to say, I was shocked as to how badly it held up. The 2/3 falls match isn't even as smart or well paced as the Kawada/Kobashi 95 draw which isn't even top ten material for either guy. Nor could Flair/Steamboat even compete with the deep, dramatic, storytelling of alot of the puro matches over the years. They are still great matches that are nearly flawless, it just there's been much greater matches.

 

To answer the original quesiton, there isn't much building off classic matches in American wrestling that I've seen. For instance, I haven't seen a modern match for the WCW title where the wrestlers purposely used symbolic spots to let the crowd know that one guy was playing Flair the other Steamboat. There are alot of workers that build off previous matches in their own careers but I've never seen one play the role of another wrestler. Not to say that they don't entirely, but it's very rare and I can't think of any examples.

 

You'll have to go to All Japan for that, with Misawa/Kawada building off Jumbo/Tenryu and what not.

 

As of now, I think that Eddy/Rey Havoc 97 is the best match to be recorded on American soil.

[Guest godthedog]

the worst & most obvious problem was long-term selling, especially by angle (which i don't remember flair or steamboat doing, though i may not have looked hard enough). it's late now, but i'll be happy to go back & watch the unforgiven match again (and the rumble if i can get it all downloaded with my slow ass connection) tomorrow & list what i think is wrong with it (or them, as the case may be).

[Guest wolverine]

Surely you're not saying you're better off having seen this match, are you? Surely you're not saying that?

 

Oh, I'm sorry...do you even KNOW who Jumbo Tsuruta is? If not, I'd suggest you do a little research, because he's the greatest wrestler of all-time, and you probably don't even know it....

[Guest Dmann2000]

Surely you're not saying you're better off having seen this match, are you? Surely you're not saying that?

 

Oh, I'm sorry...do you even KNOW who Jumbo Tsuruta is? If not, I'd suggest you do a little research, because he's the greatest wrestler of all-time, and you probably don't even know it....

I'm aware of who he is, yes. That doesn't make you better because you're more familiar with him and his work.

[Guest Dmann2000]

Surely you're not saying you're better off having seen this match, are you? Surely you're not saying that?

 

Oh, I'm sorry...do you even KNOW who Jumbo Tsuruta is? If not, I'd suggest you do a little research, because he's the greatest wrestler of all-time, and you probably don't even know it....

Look, no need to get defensive man. I admit I have very little knowledge of puro. Don't take it too personally.

[Guest Austin3164life]

I think Bret/Austin from Survivor Series 96, in terms of technique comes close to Flair/Steamboat. It was a damn good technical match.

[Guest Just call me Dan]

I may be biased, but I'm quite a fan of Austin and Angle's 2001 affairs. You can watch those exchanges closely and they are quite good at taking spots like ramming your opponent into the ringpost and making that actually mean something rather than a fake looking excuse for an outside transition.

[Guest Ace309]

I've bitten off FAR more than I can chew, as far as Tsuruta's work in the early 90s. However, I CAN say that I'm duly impressed and wish it were somehow possible to have his baby, all biological and mortal limitations aside.

 

On this side of the pond, I'd say Flair and Steamboat have an unfair advantage, if only because they were hyped so heavily, so recently. There was, if I remember correctly, a break of several years between their last match of the series and the one before that. WCW took advantage of that; I remember them showing clips of the elevated double chickenwing, Flair selling the back, and talking about how Flair was getting very broken down (even ten years ago, he was old). In my markdom, I even sent Steamboat a fan letter where I coached him to use x, y and z submission holds, and used a Dragon watermark. (Forgive me. I was, like, 10.)

 

Anyways, off the soapbox with me.