The Infalibility of The Bible FAQ

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

How about the implication in the Bible that Pi equals 3?

 

But seriously, as far as "Christian Science" is concerned, the term itself is an oxymoron because it works in a totally opposite way than any science. The scientific method involves observing the observable world, and then making conclusions based on those observations, which then become theories. So-called Christian science is basically people taking things they already believe and then trying to explain them by looking specifically for things that support them. Metaphysics and empirical sciences do not cross over.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I think that if the bible truly was 'divinely inspired' that God could have done a MUCH better job...you know, him being god and all...

[Guest IDrinkRatsMilk]

God wouldn't want to make it too easy. Then everybody would believe. It says right there in the Bible barely anyone will.

If I were God, I would be actively fucking with you people. A Depeche Mode song comes to mind. Truth? Who's to say?

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Oh, so then God DOESN'T want everyone in heaven.... Sorta like an exclusive club like Studio 54... Cept no crack and sex, and the owner isn't gay.

[Guest SP-1]

That's pretty nit-picky too, Thom.

 

If my dad asks me to go out and help him work on his dump truck, I have a choice. Yes, or No. If I choose yes, I go out there. Seeing as I know nothing of how dump trucks are put together, I must listen to him reveal what I need to know in order to do what I need to do. I then do exactly as instructed without changing it in order to perform accurately. The biblical authors submitted themselves, no doubt prayed for nothing short of Godly guidance to go out to the churches they were writing to. When they wrote, they no doubt dwelled on every thing and submitted to the Spirit as they did so. Letting the Father's Hands guide them so they performed accurately.

 

Now, as for things being explainable, let's not forget that, again: God is a God of order. Adam didn't appear out of thin air. He was made from another substance and given life. Eve didn't spring up from nowhere, she was constructed from other materials and given life. Though he CAN certain do as he pleases, God seems to enjoy doing things methodically. He is a Creator. What is created, which is everything, is dependent on Him. Including sickness and health and other things of the world and in our bodies. If God says, "heal," then things happen in the body from that motivation to begin healing.

 

And there ARE cases as well where there is no plausible scientific or medical explanation. Even in our technological age, people have come back when there was no hope or treatment. It does happen. God can cause the body's natural systems to fight back just as easily as he can stop time for Joshua. Confining him to a certain method reeks of the human need to contain and control and completely understand. And God is simply beyond that. He is not predictable, He is not inside of a box and most certainly does not cater to our prideful, sinful needs. He acts out of love and what is best and does things as only He can, in His ways and in His time.

[Guest SP-1]

Oh, so then God DOESN'T want everyone in heaven.... Sorta like an exclusive club like Studio 54... Cept no crack and sex, and the owner isn't gay.

Does He want everyone in Heaven? Yes. But some people simply will not believe in what Christ did. They have the choice. And God won't rob them of the ability to make that choice. He does know who will make that choice, however, and it's all in His foreknowledge and plans.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

So why does one have to believe in Christ to get into heaven?

[Guest SP-1]

Because the way God set things up is the way God set things up. God doesn't deal with sin. He doesn't like it, doesn't want it, and refuses to have much of anything to do with it.

 

After the fall, there was a seperation between man and God. Between then and Christ's death, God set up a system of sacrificial practices to cleanse people from sin. With Christ, the sacrificial system came full circle. God Incarnate shed his blood at the hands of men, building the bridge. To tap into that, God asks for faith. For us to make a choice to pursue the relationship with Him that Adam shared, believing in Christ and recieving the Holy Spirit as a seal marking us as God's own and to act as counselor, as a means of communication with us and as an agent of change, growing us into breaking free of the sins that infect us since Christ paid the price to reconcile us to God.

 

Again: God of order. God made a way, a way that included sending part of Himself to earth to live among us and to die a physical death at our hands, taking sin on Himself and shedding perfect, Holy blood to pay for it's price. Then Jesus was glorified, the sin taken care of for good, and returned bodily to Heaven until the end.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Doesn't really sound like a Gods way of thinking to me - too human.

[Guest SP-1]

Just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you must do that thing. Would you rather God handle it as he would a peer? Another God? That wouldn't work well in relating to us, especially not relating to us in a fallen, sinful state. God worked things out in a way that would allow us to apply it.

[Guest JMA]

YHWH gives no one a choice. "Bow to me or burn forever~!" is not a choice. It's a threat. In many ways YHWH is like a child. Or maybe a better analogy would be a chimp with a gun.

[Guest DrTom]

That's pretty nit-picky too, Thom.

It's admittedly semantics, but it was YOUR word in the first place. There's a huge problem with free will and the God described in the Bible to begin with (and I think we've already had that conversation; no need to repeat it here), and to say that people "submitted" to His will just makes it seem worse.

 

The biblical authors submitted themselves, no doubt prayed for nothing short of Godly guidance to go out to the churches they were writing to.

The difference is, you're not doing anything close to submitting your will or praying for guidance in the truck scenario. You're listening for pointers on how to do something you're not familiar with. There's a difference between that and submitting to someone else's will for whatever their purposes may be. Even if they prayed and submitted willingly, there's still the problem of free will being absent while their hands were guided over the page.

 

Though he CAN certain do as he pleases, God seems to enjoy doing things methodically.

Because it's easier for the humans who wrote it, and those who have studied it, to understand. It's hard to be a scholar of a preacher of the word if you don't have the slightest idea why something happened, or how something came to be. Thus, God was made to be very much like a man, with motivations and emotions that people can easily understand and convey to others.

 

And there ARE cases as well where there is no plausible scientific or medical explanation. Even in our technological age, people have come back when there was no hope or treatment. It does happen.

Occasionally, yes. And our current medical science is unable to explain everything that happens. However, the only people who chalk things like that up to the work of God are those who already believe. Thus, they're shaping the results to fit their expectations, which is the opposite of scientific and medical procedures. I don't know why unexplainable things happen, but I'm not of the mindset to chalk them up to the nebulous whims and will of a being whose motivations we shouldn't be able to understand.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I think 'god' - a an omnicient and omnipotent being - should be above trivial human emotions. It seems this "my way or the highway" approach is a reflection of ego rather than of universal understanding.

[Guest SP-1]

Ultimately it's something we'll likely have to agree to disagree on. As believers, I think we tend to see things and comprehend them differently than those who deny Christ and do not recieve the counsel of the Spirit. Which is basically me saying that there's a supernatural comprehension fueling how I'm understanding these things and that I acknowledge that this is something that cannot be used in a debate such as this.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Now to me, you saying that you (basically) 'feel god' seems to be either a sign of self-grandeur or a sign of weakness (or both).

 

Let me say right away that I am not 'anti-god' or 'anti-jesus' just as I am not 'anti-brahma' or 'anti-shiva' or 'anti-benoit'.. If believing in that works for you, super. I don't know whether or not god exists, but what I do know is that the need for god exists for a lot of people. It is a very personal thing, which is why I bring up and question God having Human Characteristics - because some would say that Man created God in his own image - and this is just a reflection of that.

 

I don't "deny" christ, I never even met him

[Guest SP-1]

The thing is, is that we DO need God. He is the Creator, we are the created. We are dependent on His will to come into being, let alone survive in any fashion. You can call it a crutch if you wish, but until you've lived through the changes God brings about in you and understand just how strong it actually makes you, I can't really explain it, either. The man I have grown into since coming to Christ is a much better, much stronger, and much more true man than I could have halfway grown into otherwise.

 

Becoming a true person, and part of that is being dependent on God for spiritual/emotional, and physical needs, is such a wonderful and powerful thing for Christians that are truly seeking God. Part of being strong, after all, is being able to admit where you are weak.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Fear motivates it.

 

We are all born to question. When we are children we always ask questions - that is universal. Some questions don't have answers. The Unknown is a scary thing. What is life? What is death? What is truth? It is difficult for some to get through life without having these things answered - people need security. God is that security. You feel very comfortable knowing that 1)God has a plan for you 2) God is with you 3) God loves you 4) If you love God then after you die you will get to live in heaven. If anything goes wrong in your life you won't worry (all that much) because you know God has control - and therefore you being out-of-control doesn't matter. The unknown doesn't matter. Because there is God. And there really is nothing wrong with that, if it works for you, super. But it all stems from fear.

[Guest JMA]

Fear motivates it.

 

We are all born to question. When we are children we always ask questions - that is universal. Some questions don't have answers. The Unknown is a scary thing. What is life? What is death? What is truth? It is difficult for some to get through life without having these things answered - people need security. God is that security. You feel very comfortable knowing that 1)God has a plan for you 2) God is with you 3) God loves you 4) If you love God then after you die you will get to live in heaven. If anything goes wrong in your life you won't worry (all that much) because you know God has control - and therefore you being out-of-control doesn't matter. The unknown doesn't matter. Because there is God. And there really is nothing wrong with that, if it works for you, super. But it all stems from fear.

I agree fully.

[Guest SP-1]

To a degree, perhaps. I first came to Christ as a child, but I was restless and didn't pursue it and fell away. Got into some pretty unsavory things, New Age stuff. Got into some pretty deep shat spiritually. I've gone from a child believer to New Age to borderline Atheist to flat out confused and broken. I've never approached this blindly and wouldn't pursue God or believe if it didn't seem real to me in some way. If I hadn't seen things happen, recognize the very real difference between my sinful desires and the counsel of the Spirit against them, heck, even experienced some of the extraordinary supernatural things that I have, I'd have left Christianity again.

 

So perhaps there is a fear. Everyone has fear about the future to some degree. The thing about us Christians that are really in this for the eternal haul is that our fear transforms into a redeemed curiosity, and that is a wonderous thing indeed. The fear that may have driven other endeavors, namely death as it is with most people, has been dealt with, however. Death is defeated in Christ and honestly no longer concerns me. If faced with a gun to my face and a demand to deny Christ, I'd have my brains against the wall because it doesn't concern me. Speeds up the process to achieve that which I long for anyway: being with Jesus in Heaven.

 

So fear may be a beginning. But it certainly isn't all that governs Christian belief, and it shouldn't be. Because God even commands us to fear him in His power for some reasons, and it is something that ties into respect and love as well. God is powerful, God smites His enemies and that is something to fear. But it's a righteous fear, and is more respect and reverence than actual shakin' in my boots fear.

 

Fear may be a base. But much like Christians themselves and anything under the care of God, it becomes transformed into something beyond the mere sum of it's parts.

[Guest JMA]

Fear may be a base. But much like Christians themselves and anything under the care of God, it becomes transformed into something beyond the mere sum of it's parts.

No. It's still fear that motivates MOST Christians. People who worship God because they are just afraid of going to Hell are weak-willed fools. Just like people who blame the Devil for their own thoughts and actions. I see Christ as a philosopher and have nothing against him. But there have been lots of misconceptions on who exactly Joshua bin Mariam was. I don't think he believed himself to be God and I don't think he possessed supernatural abilities. I also don't think he believed in a concept like Hell (created to scare people into believing). I would say he had a differant view on how people who follow him should act.

 

Out of all the people who claim to be Christians, only about 2% actually follow those ideals. Then you have fundamentalists who preach "fire and brimstone" to the idiots who listen to them. I'd say someone like Ghadi was a TRUE Christian.

[Guest RobJohnstone]

"Part of being strong, after all, is being able to admit where you are weak."

 

Indeed. I really do not have much to add because SP is holding this down pretty good alone. I will say however that I fear GOD and I love GOD. It works quite well and I belive that is the way GOD wants it to be.

 

--Rob

[Guest SP-1]

Dreamer, you can put forth your views all you like. The fact of the matter is that on my end I have experienced the supernatural side of God as well as the inner, personal transformation. And any Christian that's really in-step would know that Hell is no longer any concern for them, it's a matter that is over and done with. Continuing to fear death and/or Hell once you have come to Christ is ludicrous, and they've let the Devil whisper into their ear.

 

The fact of the matter is that I've seen supernatural things on both sides of the spectrum that would give anyone pause. I've seen spiritual warfare in forms beyond merely inner struggle. And I've also seen the darkness scatter at the name of Jesus Christ. I don't think, I don't sit and belt out philosophy. I live, breathe, love, and know Jesus Christ, personally. I've experienced His Spirit moving through me, I've seen visions and have come face to face with Him supernaturally.

 

Now, a person driven purely by fear of the unknown would FEED off of that. Would desire to have every element of that relationship with God be filled with visions and miracles.

 

I don't fear the unknown. The Bible tells me that I was not given the spirit of fear in this world.

 

I asked God to tone it down for a time. Specifically. So that I could concentrate not on gifts or supernatural things but on becoming a better person, a whole man in Christ, on the inside. I thank God for showing me the things He has, they were a great encouragement and have served as supporting elements in the strength of my faith. And it also showed me that all the supernatural things do nothing if I'm not becoming better as a person, not becoming whole. It's the work inside, the discernment and wisdom and the progression of character overall. I was shown the importance of that through the supernatural things.

 

I'm not weak. I'm not afraid. Truth be told, I almost take offense at the mere notion. Fear of this world does not concern me and it shouldn't concern any Christian. That non-believers would fall upon such an argument that believing in God makes one fearful or weak shows that they've missed the message overall. God doesn't make weaklings. He takes weaklings and turns them into Men, turns them into Women, and makes them stronger than anything the forces of this world can throw at them. Believe it if you want. Tear it down if you want. I don't have to believe. I know.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

That's fucking interesting, man, and it's refreshing to see someone's beliefs put that way instead of the "just in case" christianity I'm exposed to daily. Laying your cards on the table like that is ballsy, and I dig that, regardless if I completely and utterly disagree with everything you said.

[Guest Brian]

It's Sting!

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

*Sigh*

 

You feel strong with God.

 

If you didn't have God you would feel...Weak.

 

Couldn't this 'feeling' be just gas?

[Guest Samurai_Goat]

Actually, my problem is that the feeling could be in fact a delusion caused by the Devil. He's had quite a while to get into the art of decieving, maybe he's really good at it now.

[Guest SP-1]

No. I fart when I have gas. I know that feeling quite well.

 

My pastor told me one of the most important things anyone has ever told me. Christianity isn't about what you feel. It's about what you know. There are days when I feel pissed off at God. There have been times when I've wanted to give God a big hearty, "F' You,", times when everything seemed upside down and I felt like saying, "Screw this and screw you, Big Guy. I'm tired, lonely, pissy, and this just ain't worth a damn."

 

But because of that personal relationship, I know that I can go and kneel down and I can pour all that out to him. Supernaturally beat my hands against His chest, yell and scream and question. And because He's a living, responsive God, He will take it all and draw me closer. And I heal. I grow. And in His time, I come across someone to relate with, or just enough money to do what needs to be done comfortably comes along, or something in His word comes alive and rejuvinates me. Yeah, there are times when I feel like declaring God dead and all broken in the world and giving up. But because I know that God has it under control, that He will work it out best, that He will listen and absorb the blows of a heart and mind lashing out, because I know His promises are true, I push on. And I am greatly rewarded in due time as the Life God has already known and planned unfolds before me, my needs and true desires being met perfectly in timing and substance.

 

So no. I disagree that's it's about feeling strong in God. I'm not strong on my own. I break down, scream, cry, break things and fall apart, just like you will sooner or later and everyone does. I don't feel strong too very often. But my God is infinitely strong and glorious and good. My strength comes not in myself or what I feel. It comes in knowing the God that made the promises and knowing He fulfills them in time. And that's the kind of strength that bears a fruit in people and in communities that defies the world and it's science and it's conventions and perceptions.

 

As for your theory, Goat, it comes back around to the difference between feeling and knowing. Sure, the Devil can lure some into a false sense of security, making them think God is in Heaven and All is Right with the World, so to speak. Go to church on Sunday, worship like mad and it's all gravy. They think they're on cloud nine and they swear that's the Spirit, baby, that's a Holy Moment. But all it is is a moment. Or two or three strung together over short periods of time. Eventually they break down, stop believing, denounce God and turn away and never allow God the chance to fulfill the promises according to the perfect timetable He operates on with us. I like to call these folk Sunday Christians. They come to see, to feel a feeling of hope, to feel redemption, to smile and laugh and socialize and sing and feel good on Sunday Morning and then, in their hearts and minds, leave God locked inside the church building until they decide to come back and visit with him to feel good. Yeah. The Devil lures some people into that pattern of feeling close to God for a time and then laughs when they fail because they didn't really believe and pursue God personally.

 

Sure. People feel. It's those of us that know that experience the true fruits of the Lord. When I leave the church on Sunday Morning, God comes right along with me. Or, rather, I follow God on out into the sunlight and follow Him all week long, constantly in a dialogue of prayer and listening to the counsel of the Spirit and reading His Word. He's not locked in a box of brick and mortar, waiting for me to come back and feel good. And when the times come that I feel like tearing the world down and I come before the Throne, I come with confidence, one of his adopted children in Christ, knowing that the feeling of terror and sadness will pass and that God will heal me, restore me, and that the fulfillment and stability will return. And knowing that means that even when I'm kneeling in anger and tears, I'm still kneeling on the unmoving foundation that God called me by name to plant me in. In true strength. Not from myself. But from His foundation and promises I'm rooted in.

 

There are feelings. And there is knowledge. Christianity isn't about what you feel. It's about what you know. And I know that the Devil has no authority over me. He and His minions scatter at Christ's name and the authority that fills me as one in Christ. He can whisper but I know his lies, his deceptions, and the Spirit counsels me against them and ultimately he has to flee and regroup to try -- and fail -- again.

[Guest HecateRose]

SpiderPoet, I find your way of explaining your beliefs refreshing. You aren't going off on a tyraid because not everyone believes what you do, and that is nice. I respect your opinion (and your ability to convey it) without question, though I do not necessarily agree with it, I definitely respect it. As far as I'm concerned, believe what you want to believe, have faith in what seems to fit you. If you have found some sort of comfort, knowledge, faith in your path than I am happy for you. I have found those things but am traveling on a different road. I still commend you for handling this situation so gracefully, when so many other not only would not, but could not be so collected about it. It shows remarkable patience and respect.

[Guest SP-1]

Thank you, Hecate and AoO, for the words of respect. It's a patience that even I am amazed at sometimes. Good to know somebody's reading. And thank you for the patience and respect in return.

[Guest Samurai_Goat]

Can I jump on the "Hey, SP is cool with me" bandwagon? I just throw in silly crap because...uh...well, my own personal amusment, for the most part. But it's cool that you actually answer them. I usually didn't expect it to be taken seriously. So, cheers and all.