Black Actors

February 2, 2003

Anyone else notice the lack of great LEADS black actors there are out there nowadays? Honestly, the only one who can really carry a movie on his own is Denzel Washington. When I saw Training Day I just knew he had to be the one to take home the Oscar that year. The movie wasn't all that but his performance was almost flawless. Now, don't misconstrue the title of this thread, there are tons of good black actors out there, but not one can carry a movie himself.

Samuel L. Jackson is alright, but I personally feel his solo movies really suck. Shaft wasn't that great, that one he came out with last year (can't even remember the name of it) was bad. Now when he's paired with someone, he does pretty well. Pulp Fiction, Die Hard, Unbreakable are just a few where he shines with someone else.

Danny Glover and Morgan Freeman are good, but again, they can't seem to carry a movie on their own.

Then you have great character actors like Keith David and Don Cheadle. Fine with others, but most likely couldn't do it on their own.

Now, I may catch hell for this, but I think if Ice Cube can expand past the thug background character, he can probably be a pretty decent actor.

Now who's to blame for this? Hollywood? The media mainstream? Us?

What do you all think?

February 2, 2003

I think it comes from the fact that most blacks in Hollywood are forced to play demeaning comedy roles.

You forgot to add Sidney Poitier and Yapphet Kotto to your list. I'm white, and I know them.

February 2, 2003

I feel Sam Jackson is capable of carrying a movie. The guy just does so much work there's bound to be some crap in there somewhere. Wesley Snipes is decent too, but he hasn't really had that many serious roles compared to some others.

February 2, 2003

Morgan Freeman is totally capable of carrying a movie on his own. Ever see Kiss The Girls?

February 2, 2003

yeah...he had Ashley Judd to help get butts in the seats. I'm saying if he were the ONLY really big name.

February 2, 2003

I think it comes from the fact that most blacks in Hollywood are forced to play demeaning comedy roles.

You forgot to add Sidney Poitier and Yapphet Kotto to your list. I'm white, and I know them.

indeed, sidney is the man.

--Rob

February 2, 2003

yeah...he had Ashley Judd to help get butts in the seats. I'm saying if he were the ONLY really big name.

Judd has never put asses in seats, she was CLEARLY a supporting player.

Wesley Snipes carried Blade

Richard Roundtree carried Shaft

Lawerence Fishburne was the top name in Hoodlum along with the incomperable Tim Roth

Black men played the leads in all three Dead films.

February 2, 2003

Kiss The Girls would not have been as big with JUST Morgan Freeman alone...

I'll give you Wesley Snipes with Blade, but I guess I should have said I'd like to see more blacks in NON-action roles...

and i wouldn't call Hoodlum a great movie...

February 2, 2003

Kiss The Girls would not have been as big with JUST Morgan Freeman alone...

I'll give you Wesley Snipes with Blade, but I guess I should have said I'd like to see more blacks in NON-action roles...

and i wouldn't call Hoodlum a great movie...

What about Romero's "Dead" trilogy?

Hoodlum wasn't great. But it had TIM ROTH. He makes anything watchable.

(Looks at Burton's POTA re-make.)

Okay, almost anything.

Lushus, get one thing straight. I will not argue this, for I know I am right:

There are very few, if any, people who go to a movie o see Ashley Judd. They may go to a movie that HAPPENS TO HAVE Judd, but she doesn't put asses in the seats. Freeman got top billing, the box office was for FREEMAN

February 2, 2003

then explain to me why Along Came A Spider didn't do as well as Kiss The Girls...

February 2, 2003

then explain to me why Along Came A Spider didn't do as well as Kiss The Girls...

Because it was B-Movie shite, and got terrible reviews?

February 2, 2003

I'm wondering exactly what it is that you mean by "carry a movie on his own." Are we talking acting quality or box office here? If we're talking acting quality, I would certainly disagree with you on Morgan Freeman, who has done more than his fair share of carrying a movie on his back. If you're talking about box office draws, I suppose you are right (though I do wonder if even Mr. Washington is really that big of a draw in comparision to other stars). Will Smith, perhaps?

But then I also wonder what the ultimate goal of this type of discussion is. I mean, you rarely hear about the fact that there are no real leading latino men; or, let's face it, the only three roles women are allowed to play with any aplome are the virgin, the mother, and the whore; or how often there are actually handicapped actors playing the lead in films; ugly actors rarely get the lead unless they're male and very skilled; not many asian actors have had the lead in the past ten years; or gay actors for that matter. Is representation of any of those other groups less important than that of African Americans? Probably not. But they're rarely brought up in these types of discussion in lieu of harping on the fact that there are few black actors who are placed as leads, which is indeed sad and unfair (not arguing that).

I don't know. Sure this is a problem. But I'm more concerned with Hollywood producing better movies, than better movies with more racial equality. Baby steps.

February 2, 2003

alrighty...then besides Lean On Me, which other Morgan Freeman movie could he have carried by himself with lesser profile stars?

February 2, 2003

Again, please define "carry." From a quality or drawing standpoint?

February 2, 2003

I'm wondering exactly what it is that you mean by "carry a movie on his own." Are we talking acting quality or box office here? If we're talking acting quality, I would certainly disagree with you on Morgan Freeman, who has done more than his fair share of carrying a movie on his back. If you're talking about box office draws, I suppose you are right (though I do wonder if even Mr. Washington is really that big of a draw in comparision to other stars). Will Smith, perhaps?

But then I also wonder what the ultimate goal of this type of discussion is. I mean, you rarely hear about the fact that there are no real leading latino men; or, let's face it, the only three roles women are allowed to play with any aplome are the virgin, the mother, and the whore; or how often there are actually handicapped actors playing the lead in films; ugly actors rarely get the lead unless they're male and very skilled; not many asian actors have had the lead in the past ten years; or gay actors for that matter. Is representation of any of those other groups less important than that of African Americans? Probably not. But they're rarely brought up in these types of discussion in lieu of harping on the fact that there are few black actors who are placed as leads, which is indeed sad and unfair (not arguing that).

I don't know. Sure this is a problem. But I'm more concerned with Hollywood producing better movies, than better movies with more racial equality. Baby steps.

well, not to sound like an ass, but being a black man very proud of his black heritage, I guess I selfishly am concerend more with black actors than any other minority group...

February 2, 2003

BAH, i hate carrying on real time conversations on this thing, stupid Flood Control...well I guess by carry I mean not needing another big time actor tagging along with you. Denzel seems to do pretty good on his own with, I guess you could say, "mid-card" actors (I don't consider Ethan Hawke bigtime). Morgan's good movies have been alongside other stars, for example Seven with Brad Pitt. Samuel L. Jackson was good with John Travolta and Bruce Willis where as he wasn't good being the only big time actor in Shaft...

February 2, 2003

well, not to sound like an ass, but being a black man very proud of his black heritage, I guess I selfishly am concerend more with black actors than any other minority group...

Which is fair, I suppose. It just seems as though if one desired equality for a specific group, it would stand to reason that equality was desired to all groups.

I have no heritage to be proud of (or, at least, no heritage that has been threatended to be expunged), so am I only concerned in quality.

February 2, 2003

well, not to sound like an ass, but being a black man very proud of his black heritage, I guess I selfishly am concerend more with black actors than any other minority group...

Which is fair, I suppose. It just seems as though if one desired equality for a specific group, it would stand to reason that equality was desired to all groups.

I have no heritage to be proud of (or, at least, no heritage that has been threatended to be expunged), so am I only concerned in quality.

well i will go with you on that good sir...

February 2, 2003

Morgan Freeman always puts up a good performance in the movies where he plays the police veteran, and in the supporting roles in Shawshank Redemption, Unforgiven, Glory. I enjoyed his film work, as he seems to pick the right projects to work on.

February 2, 2003

Driving Miss Daisy. You could argue that Jessica Tandy is a good actress, but you did say big time actor.

Robin Hood: Prince of Theives. A rather bad movie, which was redeemed only by Freeman's performance. He didn't even get to have a single scene with the only other good actor in the film: Alan Rickman. Granted, the movie drew well because of Costner, but Costner was horrible in it. The only thing that made it good was Freeman's Azeem. Of course, taste is subjective.

The Shawshank Redemption. True, he was opposite Tim Robbins, but Robbins is on the same level, famewise, as Ethan Hawke. Freeman's narration and quiet, understated performance prevented the movie from falling into sentimental schmaltz. Even when not playing off of Robbins (like in the narration), Freeman was suberb.

Chain Reaction. Freeman surrounded by many horrible actors, only getting something decent to play off of in Brian Cox, and those scenes are few and far between. That he manages to make every scene he's in worth watching shows what a good actor he is.

Seven. You mentioned this as a counter example, but I'd remind you that in 1995 Pitt was only on his way up. At the time the studio wanted Kevin Spacey to have top billing as they didn't believe that either Pitt or Freeman would draw. For most of the movie, until Spacey shows up, Freeman is essentially acting against himself (barring the few scenes with R. Lee Ermery). Pitt does nothing in the film that would allow you to call it a good performance; the "what's in the box" scene at the end is only the most egregess of his sins. Freeman, again, gives an understated performance that carries the film. The film wouldn't work with Pitt and some other actor.

High Crimes. Again, he's with Ashley Judd, but again she does nothing that one would say improves the film. Every scene that has Freeman in it belongs entirely to Freeman.

And the afore mentioned Lean on Me.

Seven films; three of which are horrid things only redeemed by Freeman's performances; one of which has an actress in it which is at his calibre; and three which are very good and carried almost entirely by Freeman. I think that puts him on par with Mr. Washington; I'd even say that I prefer Freeman to Washington, but, again, taste is very subjective.

February 2, 2003

When you say "carry," you are referring to the Hollywood concept of "opening." Meaning, if we put this guys name at the top of the marquee will the movie be number one in the country the first week it is out. This has nothing to do with how good of an actor that person is or who else is in the movie with them, good or bad, big name or not.

Of black actors considered by Hollywood capable of opening a movie you have Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman, Samuel L. Jackson, Will Smith and to a lesser extent Ice Cube. The only black female at this point is most likey Halle Berry, but it's an exclusive group of women who can open a film no matter race.

February 2, 2003

I think that Hollywood has a Perception about Black Actors in leading roles that they can't Draw unless its a comedy.

February 2, 2003

Driving Miss Daisy. You could argue that Jessica Tandy is a good actress, but you did say big time actor.

Robin Hood: Prince of Theives. A rather bad movie, which was redeemed only by Freeman's performance. He didn't even get to have a single scene with the only other good actor in the film: Alan Rickman. Granted, the movie drew well because of Costner, but Costner was horrible in it. The only thing that made it good was Freeman's Azeem. Of course, taste is subjective.

The Shawshank Redemption. True, he was opposite Tim Robbins, but Robbins is on the same level, famewise, as Ethan Hawke. Freeman's narration and quiet, understated performance prevented the movie from falling into sentimental schmaltz. Even when not playing off of Robbins (like in the narration), Freeman was suberb.

Chain Reaction. Freeman surrounded by many horrible actors, only getting something decent to play off of in Brian Cox, and those scenes are few and far between. That he manages to make every scene he's in worth watching shows what a good actor he is.

Seven. You mentioned this as a counter example, but I'd remind you that in 1995 Pitt was only on his way up. At the time the studio wanted Kevin Spacey to have top billing as they didn't believe that either Pitt or Freeman would draw. For most of the movie, until Spacey shows up, Freeman is essentially acting against himself (barring the few scenes with R. Lee Ermery). Pitt does nothing in the film that would allow you to call it a good performance; the "what's in the box" scene at the end is only the most egregess of his sins. Freeman, again, gives an understated performance that carries the film. The film wouldn't work with Pitt and some other actor.

High Crimes. Again, he's with Ashley Judd, but again she does nothing that one would say improves the film. Every scene that has Freeman in it belongs entirely to Freeman.

And the afore mentioned Lean on Me.

Seven films; three of which are horrid things only redeemed by Freeman's performances; one of which has an actress in it which is at his calibre; and three which are very good and carried almost entirely by Freeman. I think that puts him on par with Mr. Washington; I'd even say that I prefer Freeman to Washington, but, again, taste is very subjective.

well, i SOMEWHAT stand corrected...okay so we'll say Morgan Freeman and Denzel Washington are pretty much alone in the upper echalon of black male actors...Will Smith is kind of there, but I personally haven't found any of his films to be that great, but he usually is a big draw.

A slight rebuttle to your Seven comment, I'd say 94 to 96 was probably Brad Pitt's biggest years, then he fell off before showing up again a few years later in movies like Fight Club and Ocean's Eleven. Not that he was a great actor then, but in that time frame he was in Seven, Interview With The Vampire, 12 Monkies, Legends Of The Fall and he DID get the top billing in Seven afterall...

Chain Reaction I think was more of an attempted push for Keanu Reeves than for Morgan...

I also agree that Shawshank would be shit without Morgan, but I think Tim Robbins carried it pretty well also, so again, Morgan wasn't doing it on his own...

February 2, 2003

The actual film quality and the performances there-in shouldn't matter one bit when discussing this topic. "Drawing" would be earning money. And whoever gets top billing is who Hollywood considers brought in the people.

So to come up with which black actors are draws, we would have to look at how much money(more importantly the opening weekend, I'm thinking) a film that they "headlined" brought it.

If the actor isn't top billing, then it isn't their vehicle. That's my two cents anyway.

February 2, 2003

Robin Hood: Prince of Theives. A rather bad movie, which was redeemed only by Freeman's performance. He didn't even get to have a single scene with the only other good actor in the film: Alan Rickman. Granted, the movie drew well because of Costner, but Costner was horrible in it. The only thing that made it good was Freeman's Azeem. Of course, taste is subjective.

The Shawshank Redemption. True, he was opposite Tim Robbins, but Robbins is on the same level, famewise, as Ethan Hawke. Freeman's narration and quiet, understated performance prevented the movie from falling into sentimental schmaltz. Even when not playing off of Robbins (like in the narration), Freeman was suberb.

1. It isn't a matter of taste. Alan Rickman is an amazing scenary-chewing badass villain who is awesome in every scene he's in.(Come on, you didn't like the "Spoon" scene? The "cancel Christmas" scene? The "10:45" scene? The killing of Guy of Gisbourne? He ruled it, old-school.) He was carrying that movie quality-wise. Freeman's role simply wasn't as big as his was.

2. Tim Robbins' character IS The Shawshank Redemption. Freeman's character is simply the man basking in the glow, and he does a remarkable job with a brilliant understated performance. I agree with your general point, but your robbing Tim Robbins of the best moment of his career by doing it. NOBODY carried Shawshank from a quality stand-point, Robbins and Freeman were the stars, and the rest of the ensamble was PERFECT.

February 2, 2003

MrZsasz:

2. Tim Robbins' character IS The Shawshank Redemption. Freeman's character is simply the man basking in the glow, and he does a remarkable job with a brilliant understated performance.

I disagree. The redemption at Shawshank was Red's. Andy, though we would protest otherwise, has done nothing that requires redeeming; his character changes very little throughout the movie, and it doesn't need to. Andy is the example of what life is before prison robs it away from the inmates; Red long ago has accepted the fact that he was going to be in there until the day he died -- his performances at the parole hearings (and specifically the way they change over the course of the movie) show that he knows his place is inside the walls. Red is the protagonist because, through Andy, he finds hope again; he regains a sense of humanity, someone of value.

Which is not to say that Andy doesn't play an integral part, only that the story is really about Red.

Max Danger:

The actual film quality and the performances there-in shouldn't matter one bit when discussing this topic.

Black Lushus has yet to make it clear which is of more importance to him. (i) Black actors who play the lead, or significant, role in films and give quality performances without playing off of other good actors, or (ii) Black actors who are able to play the lead in a film and draw significant business. S/he introduced both in the original post, so both are probably worth addressing. Though, you're right, if only drawing power is the issue, quality is not worth discussing. And if we're only talking about drawing power, Will Smith smokes Washington, hands down.

Black Lushus:

A slight rebuttle to your Seven comment, I'd say 94 to 96 was probably Brad Pitt's biggest years, then he fell off before showing up again a few years later in movies like Fight Club and Ocean's Eleven. Not that he was a great actor then, but in that time frame he was in Seven, Interview With The Vampire, 12 Monkies, Legends Of The Fall and he DID get the top billing in Seven afterall...

Hmm. He was coming off of the successes of Interview with the Vampire and Legends of the Fall when Seven came out, so, you're correct, he was riding some success. But Legends of the Fall wasn't exactly a run away success ($66.5mil; good for not really having anyone in it, but hardly amazing even in '94), and Interview had Cruise to take most of the credit for the success. No doubt he was a rising star in '95, but I think it's rather telling that New Line wanted Spacey, an actor was was yet to win an Oscar for The Usual Suspects and whose previous two successes (The Ref and Glengarry Glen Ross had just made back their budgets), to headline even though his screentime was very small. Granted, looking back it seems as though he was a huge star taking on a role in a small film, but I'm not entirely sure if that's accurate. Or perhaps I'm misremembering.

Perhaps they changed it for video release, but my copy has Pitt and Freeman sharing top billing.

Chain Reaction I think was more of an attempted push for Keanu Reeves than for Morgan

True, though from an acting standpoint...

I also agree that Shawshank would be shit without Morgan, but I think Tim Robbins carried it pretty well also, so again, Morgan wasn't doing it on his own...

Given that he was the narrator, I think he did do a lot of it on his own. True, the scenes between Andy and Red worked perfectly because both actors were at the top of their game, but, Andy's scenes without Red are missing something, while Red always works (for me). Not really a knock on Robbins as the role required him to be rather introverted and unexpressive, especially when he wasn't around Red.

Though, yes, as MrZsasz says, the rest of the cast did a wonderful job as well.

Now I'm starting to wonder about movies Denzel carried (in an acting sense).

February 2, 2003

I thought that the redemption was Red leaving prison and regaining his hope...

After all, the last words are "I hope".

February 2, 2003

Oh, and once old studio heads start dying off and 'old way of thinking' goes with them (give or take a few generations) then it should get better.

But until then, they will always play it safe...after all, Titanic had HOW many black people in it? It's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy... "We can't put black people in leading roles because they won't make money" "So, lets put a white guy in, they make money" *film makes money* "told ya".

The same goes for women and minorites..

February 2, 2003

Using the criteria of top billing or co-billing, I got the opening weekends for some of the better drawing black actors. For whatever reason, records of opening weekend boxoffice is sketchy around '95 or earlier. Also, there seem to be a few films the draw of which wouldn't be the actors, but other factors (such as the director, genre, historical significance, etc). A few films have ensemble casts, but the listed actor recieved either top billing or close to it.

All numbers in millions unless otherwise noted.

Will Smith

Men in Black II - 87.24

Ali - 10.21

Legend of Bagger Vance - 11.51

Wild Wild West - 49.7

Enemy of the State - 20.03

Men in Black - 84.13

Independence Day - 50.2

Bad Boys - 15.5

Denzel Washinton

John Q - 23.61

Training Day - 22.55

The Hurricane - 10.51 (opened in limited release for $337,000 on 11 screens a few weeks earlier)

The Bone Collector - 16.71

The Siege - 13.93

He Got Game - 7.61

Fallen - 10.4

The Preacher's Wife - 7.64

Courage Under Fire - 12.5

Eddie Murphy

I Spy - 12.75

Adventures of Pluto Nash - 2.18

Showtime - 15.01

Dr. Doolittle 2 - 25.03

Nutty Professor 2 - 42.51

Bowfinger - 18.06

Holyman - 5.1

Dr. Doolittle - 29.01

Nutty Profesor - 25.4

Samuel L. Jackson

Changing Lanes - 17.12

Unbreakable - 30.33

Shaft - 21.71

Rules of Engagement - 15.01

The Negotiator - 10.21

Jackie Brown - 9.21

The Long Kiss Goodnight - 9.06

A Time to Kill - 19.63

Martin Lawrence

Runteldat - 7.37

Black Knight - 11.1

What's the Worst that could Happen - 13.04

Big Momma's House - 25.66

Blue Streak - 19.2

Life - 20.41

Nothing to Lose - 11.61

Ice Cube

Friday After Next - 13.01

Barbershop - 20.62

All About the Benjamins - 10

Ghosts of Mars - 3.8

Next Friday - 16.91

Three Kings - 15.84

Anaconda - 16.62

Moran Freeman

High Crimes - 14

Along Came a Spider - 16.71

Nurse Betty - 7.14

Hard Rain - 8

Amistad - 4.66

Kiss the Girls - 13.21

Chain Reaction - 7.54

Chris Rock

Bad Company - 11

Down to Earth - 20.02

Chris Tucker

Rush Hour - 33

Money Talks - 10.65

Omar Epps

In Too Deep - 4.22

The Wood - 8.51

The Mod Squad - 6.06

LL Cool J

Rollerball - 9.01

Kingdom Come - 7.56

In Too Deep - 4.22

Laurence Fishburne

Hoodlum - 8.16

Event Horizon - 9.51

Fled - 5.4

I'm not sure what that tells me, other than the fact that I really had trouble coming up with black actors. Comedies and action films seems to do the best with drama doing poorly, which is par for the course.

Thoughts?

February 2, 2003

I personally find the lack of good roles for women just as, if not moreso disturbing. When I was trying to think up a list of top ten actors a while back, I realised that I didn't even consider any women. This isn't because of lack of female acting talent, its because there are so few genuinely good roles for women. Only Julianne Moore to my mind has been able to string together a run of really good roles in good films recently. Kidman, Zellweger, Diaz, Paltrow and many more are all talented actresses but they sometimes end up in such shit, undemanding roles that they are unable to build up a consistently impressive resume. Then there are actors like Jennifer Lopez and Angelina Jolie who had charisma and star potential but wasted it on utter tripe. Its an irritating state of affairs.

Black Actors

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