Do you prefer Bret or Flair's psychology strategy?

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

There is Bret's belief that you should focusc on one body part and go frrom there.

 

And Flair's in which you work over whatever you can. "Here, there, everywhere" as Bret puts it.

 

I prefer Bret's with the focus being on one body part.

 

Which do you prefer?

[Guest HartFan86]

Bret's, because Flair's pyschology is just all over the place and it can be a pain at times. Not saying I don't like Flair's pyschology, but I just prefer Bret's better.

[Guest Redhawk]

Flair's is more realistic, especially when Bret (or anyone) works an arm for the first part of a match and wins with a Sharpshooter or a Rock Bottom. In a real fight you wouldn't focus on one part, you take what they give you.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I'd say both guy's psych was pretty formulatic in general. I think Bret critisized Flair the way he did because by the time the two were having matches together, Flair had dumbed down his work to the point that he was just doing His Stuff and nothing else.

 

If you want to have an actual discusion of who was overall better at using psych, you'd have to compare the primes of both men. I'm not saying that I'm the man for that job, just pointing out that you have to look at the whole picture, as opposed to comparing what wrestler's said about each other.

[Guest HartFan86]

Bret (or anyone) works an arm for the first part of a match and wins with a Sharpshooter or a Rock Bottom.

Very true....this always bugged me.

[Guest Choken One]

Bret rarely ever worked the legs or lower back and usually focused on the Soulders and Ribs...

 

Flair was smarter, spreading out the attacks...

[Guest RepoMan]

I like Bret's better probalby just because that's what I grew up with. I remember him working the leg more, but you all probalby know more than I do.

[Guest godthedog]

later in his career, bret ALWAYS worked the leg. i have eleven of his ppv matches from 1997, and i think he works the leg in every singles match he's in.

 

this "only work one body part" strategy was even broken by bret himself constantly (as has already been pointed out). in his classic with owen, owen worked the back then the leg. in his classic with davey boy at summerslam, he worked the jaw for the first half then forgot about it. and he would work the arm for the first act of a match a LOT.

 

i prefer the "flair" method, as it's more plausible and more spontaneous. the other method tends to get contrived & predictable.

[Guest Austin3164life]

Flair's is probably better, just for its unpredictability.

[Guest Kid Kablam]

later in his career, bret ALWAYS worked the leg. i have eleven of his ppv matches from 1997, and i think he works the leg in every singles match he's in.

 

this "only work one body part" strategy was even broken by bret himself constantly (as has already been pointed out). in his classic with owen, owen worked the back then the leg. in his classic with davey boy at summerslam, he worked the jaw for the first half then forgot about it. and he would work the arm for the first act of a match a LOT.

 

i prefer the "flair" method, as it's more plausible and more spontaneous. the other method tends to get contrived & predictable.

To me that's strange as the Sharpshooter actually focuses on the back. And Ricky: which American workers do you think display the best psychology?

[Guest Dr. Wrestlingphysics]

Not to say I don't like Bret, but I go for Flair's way.

As mentioned, is seems more "real" to work on what you are given until the opponent is worn down enough for you to dictate the match (where Flair would usually work the leg for the figure four) rather than working the arm or legs only to win with a back submission (sharpshooter).

[Guest TheHulkster]

Flair's psych isn't so much attacking a body part as much as it's working the crowds emotions. It goes: Flair dominates untill the baby face makes a big comeback and whip Flair's ass all around the ring untill it seems like he can't take any more, but they make that one small mistake (about 60% of the time fucking up their knee in the process) and Flair attacks them like a shark untill they are primed and ready for the figure four. It depends on which type of psych you prefer: working the body part or working the crowd. You can tell Flair is a big mark for Buddy Rogers.

[Guest Respect The 'Taker]

Flair drew the fans into the match a lot better than Bret did with his in-ring work. However i learnt every wrestling move i know today by watching hours of Bret Hart matches, and he remains my favourite wrestler ever for a reason. So I'm with the Hitman.

 

UYI

[Guest Jack Tunney]

The way Bret worked the knee for the sharpshooter always confused me too.Maybe the idea is that he's working on the knee to keep his opponent off of his feet and make the sharpshooter easier to apply.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

And Ricky: which American workers do you think display the best psychology?

Currentlly, I'd say Chris Benoit is the best when it comes to establishing a clear-cut storyline for a match and even though he's fallen off quite a bit thanks to dumbing down his work a bunch, he's still the best stateside that I can come up with. From the little that I've seen, American Dragon isn't that far behind, though.

 

If you mean a list of workers who display the best psychology over the years, Hart and Flair would most-likely be on it, but I just think making an arguement over the subject should include a certain degree of analysis. You can't just throw out statements like "Flair was all over the place" without bringing up examples to justify your claims. Otherwise we get into these disputes between people who may have seen different portions of Flair's career and end up arguing without backing up anything they say. Arguing with blanket statements is no way to discus something.

 

As for American workers who displayed the best psychology, I'd name Barry Windham as a personal favorite. His match with Flair from Crockett Cup '87 was really solid, as he took Flair by the Numbers and managed to make it interesting by throwing in his own little touches. He put over all of Flair's cheating tactics with great selling while also maintaining credibility by being in control himself and not falling into the normal Flair Mold. His desperation near the end was also a great way to put over Flair and it made the ending even more frenzied and uncertain.

 

Wonderfull work by Barry, who I need to see more of.

[Guest Mad Dog]

I prefer Flair b/c he typically starting working over a part of the body after the face made a mistake.

 

Take his match with Steamboat at Clash VI. Steamboat crashes into the corner and hurts his knee so Flair focuses his attack on it.

 

To me it made more sense than Bret Hart's.

[Guest Breetai]

What do you think then of Mutoh's psychology (I know that this isn't the puro forum, but it's on-topic)

 

Work the leg so that you can drive your opponent onto their knees = time for a nice quick knee to the face.

[Guest red_file]

Were the shining wizard a devastating knockout blow (a la the western lariat or Misawa's running elbow) the psych would work fine. The fact that Mutoh uses half a dozen shining wizards during the course of a match kinda makes it less logical. Building to the moonsault through the use of leg work, though, seemed to work fine.

 

I've always viewed Flair's psych in a more "picking away at the opponent" type of strategy. If you look at Flair matches in the mid-to-late 80s, he's getting his ass kicked through most of the matches; the "Flair by the numbers," if you will. His array of suplexs and chops seemed to be worked in between his oppents offense to wear the opponent down, so that when he finally went to work on the knee the opponent would be too worn down and damaged to fight out. I'm not entirely what to make of the fact that the low blow and rollup was integral to his offense even in his prime.

 

Windham seemed like one of the few wrestlers who was willing to bump like hell for Flair and make him look strong. Around '87 they were both probably among the ten best in the world, easily top twenty. Still, I have trouble thinking of great Windham matches that didn't involve the horsemen.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Flair's psych is unpredictable?

 

Christ.

 

Tim

[Guest saturnmark4life]

Both guys have a tendency to go through the motions and still have great matches. IMO, bret, character or not, was just out there to do his job, whereas Flair is the showman. Bret doesn't work the crowd at all really, but if you're a fan of psychology go with him.

[Guest Goodear]

Flair has been wrestling the same match for the last ... what?... seven years of his career? If you can't call an entire Flair match move-by-move yet, you haven't been paying attention. And while its still a watchable formula, its still formula that doesn't change whether he's wrestling the Big Show or Rey Mysterio and that's not good. I also have issue with his predictable transitions which everyone should know by heart by now. Finally, I despise how people would always manage to hurt their knees against him when they wouldn't against anyone else... the worst example being Eddie Guerrero jamming his knee off a frogsplash in a US title match.

 

Bret mixed it up a bit more, but he had a lot of the same problems without Flair's personality to cover up his flaws. I like him a little better because I think he bumped harder and his offense had a bit more punch to it.

[Guest HartFan86]

You can't just throw out statements like "Flair was all over the place" without bringing up examples to justify your claims. Otherwise we get into these disputes between people who may have seen different portions of Flair's career and end up arguing without backing up anything they say.

Well, let's bring up one match off the top of my head.....Bret vs. Flair, WWF Title in Saskatoon. I need to get a better copy of it (won one on E-Bay, sent it it back), but the pyschology was something like work the arm, then to the leg, and then back to something. Not sure who to blame, but it seemed to be Flair.

 

Once again, I'd need to go back and see it. Also, I'd probably need to go back in my tape collection and watch more of Flair. Another match I can think of having pyschology all over the place would be vs. Funk at GAB 89, but I haven't seen that tape in months.

[Guest JHawk]

Normally I'd go with Flair's, but Flair had a tendency to work over the left leg and then put the figure-four on so all the pressure was on the right leg. Still, at least he'd work on building his finisher, and Bret didn't always do that.

 

Flair in a squeaker.

[cawthon777 0]

Gotta go with Bret. Sure, they're both fairly "by the numbers" - but so was Ricky Steamboat and all three are regarded as some of the best ever.

 

You knew Bret would work on the legs - especially since 90% of his opposition were big guys (Yoko, Bigelow, Diesel, Taker, etc). You get the big guy on his back and he can't do squat. Bret was more business, Flair was more show. I didn't know psychology from astronomy when I was 10 years old, but I still bought into Bret's every move and knew exactly what he was doing and why (okay, I probably did know the difference ... just making a comparison).

 

Flair's matches usually included him getting the tar beaten out of him, then getting a thumb to the eye to turn the tide ... then chops ... suplexes ... knee out of the corner ... work on the leg.

 

I wouldn't call Bret predictable. I'd call him focused.

[Guest juvvy]

I like Bret's 5 Moves Of Doom or whatever it was called better

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Once again, I'd need to go back and see it. Also, I'd probably need to go back in my tape collection and watch more of Flair. Another match I can think of having pyschology all over the place would be vs. Funk at GAB 89, but I haven't seen that tape in months.

I know you haven't seen the match in months, but the psychology in Flair/Funk GAB 89 is not all over in the place. In fact, the psychology is hell of alot more deeper and interesting than the Flair/Steamboat matches.

 

The story is pretty simple, they hate each other so they beat the shit out of each other. Funk is able to take the advantage by going after Flair's injured neck. However Flair makes the comeback, and gets revenge by going after Funk's neck. After beating Funk to hell and back, Flair feels satisifed and decides to take him out with the Figure Four. However Funk busts out the branding iron, and makes the comeback. But Flair once again get's payback by nailing Funk with the branding iron. Flair misses the diving knee, hurting his leg, almost ironic considering that's how Flair beat Steamboat(just replace missed knee with falling out of the ring). Funk capitilizes with the Toe Hold, but of course this ends in the sweet countering sequence that sees Flair come out on top.

 

While overall, Flair/Funk is not as good as Flair/Steamboat. The Psychology is far more deeper than they I'm going work the arm forever until he submits to a move that targets the back of Wrestlwar 89. It also stands toe to toe with most Bret matches. Sorry, but I'm a big mark for Flair/Funk Bash 89.