JLA: Tower of Babel

February 8, 2003

Hey Guys.

I just finished JLA: Tower of Babel, and I must say, the book is a failure in my eyes. Oh, don't get me wrong, the art is good, and the concept is very authentic to the character of Batman. The problem in my eyes is this:

At no time during this book do I feel Batman is personally responsibile for what happens. Furthermore, I think the JLA was incredibily naive to think that he WASN'T keeping tabs on them.

Batman created those traps in case the JLA were ever manipulated, or in case someone stole their powers. Throughout that entire book, Batman has to keep them on track and keep them from bickering with eachother. Batman IS right, they are a bunch of fools.

Batman is just a man. He has no god-like abilities. How is he to defend himself against them? I think they're really angry at Batman, not because of the trust he supposedly broke, but because he proved to all of them, that HE, an ordinary guy, is better then they will ever be. (Notice how Wonder Woman was ESPECIALLY pissed at him.) I did like the ending where he leaves the JLA before they can give him their decision.

The whole point of the arc was to create a situation where batman was responsibile for their problems. I think batman was RIGHT to keep those files. And without Batman, they never would have been able to beat Al-Ghul.

February 8, 2003

Thats the problem with all those so-called "gods" in DC Universe, If my memory works fine, Super, WW and a few more were pissed with him and GL (a HUMAN) and a few were not totally pissed or at least not sure about Bats.

And hey, WE, Humans must be together against all those stinkin Aliens, Metahumans and Mutants !!!!! ^_^

February 9, 2003

GL abstained. He felt he didn't have enough experience to vote.

Flash voted for him to stay.

Manhunter voted for him to stay

Aquaman, Wonder Woman, and Plastic Man voted for him to be expelled.

Superman would voted for Bats to be expelled but batman quit before Superman announced his vote.

February 9, 2003

No wonder I hate Aquaman and Wonder Woman. Just because they think they're royalty and better than anybody else, they're sooo overrated. Batman could take them down (specially that Aquaman idiot). Of course Batman had to keep tabs on each guy! MrZsasz's explanation is right on the money. Batman was innocent, I agree he had to to what he had to do.

But IMO, I think it was a pretty good story, one of the few I liked from JLA besides the first storyarc with the Hyperclan.

February 9, 2003

He should've been voted off for not killing Plastic Man.

I can't stand Wonder Woman or Aqua Man and their reaction to that just further feuled it. I think they were just bitter b/c they found out who the real muscle behind the JLA was.

February 9, 2003

Hey Guys.

I just finished JLA: Tower of Babel, and I must say, the book is a failure in my eyes. Oh, don't get me wrong, the art is good, and the concept is very authentic to the character of Batman. The problem in my eyes is this:

At no time during this book do I feel Batman is personally responsibile for what happens. Furthermore, I think the JLA was incredibily naive to think that he WASN'T keeping tabs on them.

Batman created those traps in case the JLA were ever manipulated, or in case someone stole their powers. Throughout that entire book, Batman has to keep them on track and keep them from bickering with eachother. Batman IS right, they are a bunch of fools.

Batman is just a man. He has no god-like abilities. How is he to defend himself against them? I think they're really angry at Batman, not because of the trust he supposedly broke, but because he proved to all of them, that HE, an ordinary guy, is better then they will ever be. (Notice how Wonder Woman was ESPECIALLY pissed at him.) I did like the ending where he leaves the JLA before they can give him their decision.

The whole point of the arc was to create a situation where batman was responsibile for their problems. I think batman was RIGHT to keep those files. And without Batman, they never would have been able to beat Al-Ghul.

I don't subscribe to the "Batman can beat everyone" mentality. I like Batman, but he is only as tough as he is written. Given the current level of worship readers lay at his feet he could be written to defeat a Celestial and his fans would buy it.

Having said that, I think that the team was upset with him cuz someone they trusted as a friend(or at least co-combatant) had been among them while all the while noting their weaknesses and ways to exploit them. Doesn't sound like a friend to me.

Also, the countermeasures Bats came up with may have been planned as traps, but some of them could have become fatal given very little time.

I liked the story, but also saw it as a way to get Batman off the team for awhile.

February 9, 2003

Yes, but you must concede that the NEED for these traps was very real. So many of the JLA's enemies steal powers, it's foolish NOT to have something like this stashed away.

Also, Batman has always skirted the line between accepted crimefighter and wanted vigilante. If he were to be come a poltical liability (i.e. The Dark Knight Returns) the JLA would be charged with his capture. Thus, he needs a defense.

Batman also abhors the League's "punch first, ask questions later" mentality. (i.e. Kingdom Come) If the two ideologies should ever clash in a violent manner, Batman has to use his greatest strength: His MIND to defeat them. It's no different then any of the others theorizing on how to destroy the others with THEIR powers.

Also keep in mind that Batman could have INSTANTLY defused the situation if he wasn't chasing his parents bodies.

The reason Batman can defeat almost anyone is twofold:

1. Quite frankly, he is the pinnacle of human achievement in every regard. Mental and physical. He is a super-genius to the level of Reed Richards and Lex Luthor, and he has trained his body to the absoulute of human potential. he can immeadiatly analyze an oppenant's strengths and weaknesses and for the most part, formulate an effective counter-attack.

2. Batman will not hesitate to use any advantage to come out on top. He will cheat. he will use numbers to overpower. he will fight dirty. Just as long as he wins.

February 10, 2003

Yes, but you must concede that the NEED for these traps was very real. So many of the JLA's enemies steal powers, it's foolish NOT to have something like this stashed away.

Also, Batman has always skirted the line between accepted crimefighter and wanted vigilante. If he were to be come a poltical liability (i.e. The Dark Knight Returns) the JLA would be charged with his capture. Thus, he needs a defense.

Batman also abhors the League's "punch first, ask questions later" mentality. (i.e. Kingdom Come) If the two ideologies should ever clash in a violent manner, Batman has to use his greatest strength: His MIND to defeat them. It's no different then any of the others theorizing on how to destroy the others with THEIR powers.

Also keep in mind that Batman could have INSTANTLY defused the situation if he wasn't chasing his parents bodies.

The reason Batman can defeat almost anyone is twofold:

1. Quite frankly, he is the pinnacle of human achievement in every regard. Mental and physical. He is a super-genius to the level of Reed Richards and Lex Luthor, and he has trained his body to the absoulute of human potential. he can immeadiatly analyze an oppenant's strengths and weaknesses and for the most part, formulate an effective counter-attack.

2. Batman will not hesitate to use any advantage to come out on top. He will cheat. he will use numbers to overpower. he will fight dirty. Just as long as he wins.

I stand behind my previous statement regarding Batman's popularity. IIRC, right after the DK version of Batman beat Supes, the "regular" version began to become more and more formidable.

Regarding the traps, the fact that some were potentially lethal coupled with the fact that he did not entrust anyone on the team with his plan leads me to agree wioth the way the characters reacted.

Thank you for the reply and for your interesting points.

February 10, 2003

Before I begin, I feel obligated to mention that your politeness does not unnoticed, or unapprciated.

1. Most of the traps can be concieveably disarmed if Batman needs them to be. None of them kill instantly, so I'm pretty sure they're designed to incapcitate until Bats can find a more permanent solution.

2. I think DKR was a turning point, for the Batman character as a whole. But even before that his MIND was what was always unique about him. (See: SuperFriends)

3. If he entrusts his plans to the others, they will be useless should one of them go rogue. Or by manipulated by a telepathic. Batman said it himself:

Alfred: "You do relize, sir, that despite the way you isolate yourself from them, that they are almost certainly not taking steps against you."

Batman: "If they arn't, then they're being foolish."

Batman is all about CONTINGENCIES. It's what he does. When he attacks he's already won the battle, because he already knows how his oppenent will react. And if they don't react that way... he has a contingency plan.

February 10, 2003

Before I begin, I feel obligated to mention that your politeness does not unnoticed, or unapprciated.

1. Most of the traps can be concieveably disarmed if Batman needs them to be. None of them kill instantly, so I'm pretty sure they're designed to incapcitate until Bats can find a more permanent solution.

2. I think DKR was a turning point, for the Batman character as a whole. But even before that his MIND was what was always unique about him. (See: SuperFriends)

3. If he entrusts his plans to the others, they will be useless should one of them go rogue. Or by manipulated by a telepathic. Batman said it himself:

Alfred: "You do relize, sir, that despite the way you isolate yourself from them, that they are almost certainly not taking steps against you."

Batman: "If they arn't, then they're being foolish."

Batman is all about CONTINGENCIES. It's what he does. When he attacks he's already won the battle, because he already knows how his oppenent will react. And if they don't react that way... he has a contingency plan.

All good points.

I recently reread the series (before this series of posts) and still feel that his teammates were justified in kicking him off (for however long lasted...I don't remember when/if he came back to the fold).

They probably needed some time apart after that perceived betrayal of trust.

If only the Superfriends had an equivalent storyline...I would like to see the current version of Batman neutralize the Wonder Twins and Gleek.

Here's to ya. Nice to see that an internet debate doesn't have to degenerate into a juvenile argument.

:cheers:

February 10, 2003

We discussed ToB a couple months ago.

I already expressed my thoughts on the story so if anyone wants to comment on them, please do it in the thread I linked to since it can save the board some bandwith.

Oh and don't be afraid of the person I was speaking to about it either.

February 10, 2003

Actually, you guys had three posts about Tower of Babel in a thread about TDKSA.

The thread's already here, might as well post in it.

February 10, 2003

Sass, I was reading the other thread you posted, and you said that batman didn't help with Doomsday because he was recovering from a broken back:

KNIGHTFALL happened after DEATH OF SUPERMAN. In the first issue of KNIGHTFALL (Arkham Breakout) batman is wearing the Superman Memorial black armband.

February 10, 2003

I knew I had made a mistake on my timeline.

I'm looking at Justice League #70 right now and I see the error of my ways.

February 10, 2003

Nobody's perfect, Sass.

Well... almost nobody, that is.

Anyway, could you give your opinion on the point we were directly debating:

Was Batman justified to create the countermeasures, and was the League's response because of a breach of trust, or a shot to the ego?

February 12, 2003

My response.

February 13, 2003

GL abstained. He felt he didn't have enough experience to vote.

Actually, he did vote. He tried to abstain, but someone off the panel (presumably Wonder Woman) insists that he vote. And GL votes for Batman to stay. The reason Superman's vote was so important is that the league was deadlocked 3-3 at that point, and he had the deciding vote. I think Batman knew the outcome (he certainly would know how Superman would vote, if not the entire League), and left before Superman could officially cast the decisive vote and expel him.

Was Batman justified to create the countermeasures, and was the League's response because of a breach of trust, or a shot to the ego?

He was absolutely justified. Not only does it make sense within the confines of the explanations presented, but it makes sense within the Batman character. His best attribute is that he's always ten steps ahead of everyone. He has contingencies on top of contingencies. That said, I think the decision was made because of a breach of trust. Ego had to play a part in some of the votes, but the fact remains that the rest of the League felt betrayed by Batman.

As for Batman's ability to take down more powerful heroes, TDKR was definitely the turning point. Let's look at it objectively, though: Batman was wearing powered armor, and Superman was hardly at full strength from the combined effects of the nuclear blast and the absence of the sun. The plans Batman made leading up to and during the fight were tremendous, though, and I think that's what most people take away from it. I never read comics regularly enough to know if the series writing changed as a result of what happened in TDKR, but it wouldn't surprise me.

And since it got lost in the shuffle somewhere, I very much enjoyed Tower of Babel.

February 13, 2003

GL abstained. He felt he didn't have enough experience to vote.

Actually, he did vote. He tried to abstain, but someone off the panel (presumably Wonder Woman) insists that he vote. And GL votes for Batman to stay. The reason Superman's vote was so important is that the league was deadlocked 3-3 at that point, and he had the deciding vote. I think Batman knew the outcome (he certainly would know how Superman would vote, if not the entire League), and left before Superman could officially cast the decisive vote and expel him.

Was Batman justified to create the countermeasures, and was the League's response because of a breach of trust, or a shot to the ego?

He was absolutely justified. Not only does it make sense within the confines of the explanations presented, but it makes sense within the Batman character. His best attribute is that he's always ten steps ahead of everyone. He has contingencies on top of contingencies. That said, I think the decision was made because of a breach of trust. Ego had to play a part in some of the votes, but the fact remains that the rest of the League felt betrayed by Batman.

As for Batman's ability to take down more powerful heroes, TDKR was definitely the turning point. Let's look at it objectively, though: Batman was wearing powered armor, and Superman was hardly at full strength from the combined effects of the nuclear blast and the absence of the sun. The plans Batman made leading up to and during the fight were tremendous, though, and I think that's what most people take away from it. I never read comics regularly enough to know if the series writing changed as a result of what happened in TDKR, but it wouldn't surprise me.

And since it got lost in the shuffle somewhere, I very much enjoyed Tower of Babel.

1. Thanks for clearing up the GL mistake.

2. I pretty much said up there he was justified. The Laegue has often blundered into situations, relying on their powers to keep them alive. It would make sense for Batman to create devices to stop the super-beings should they go rogue, or what have you. He's furthur justified by their unending stupidity.

My favorite part of TDKR is when Bruce is teaching carrie to ride, and Superman bellows, "WHERE?" And he simply whispers "Crime alley." Just a wonderful moment.

February 17, 2003

There were a lot of wonderful moments in DKR.

Mine had to be Alfred's quasi-eulogy at the end of the last book.

Just touching.

February 18, 2003

You know... thinkin about this for a few minutes...

Superman is guitly too. Why?

Who "Trusted" in Batman to take him down and gave him a piece of Kryptonite? And that was a seed for Batman to create ideas about his pals.

Stinkin Alien

February 23, 2003

No one ever said Superman was the brightest guy around.

Of course Pre-Crisis Superman was super intelligent unlike his Post-Crisis counter-part. I mean, the guy would read an entire dictionary in less than a second.

February 24, 2003

No one ever said Superman was the brightest guy around.

Of course Pre-Crisis Superman was super intelligent unlike his Post-Crisis counter-part. I mean, the guy would read an entire dictionary in less than a second.

Pre-Crisis Superman was a god whose only weakness was a piece of rock that gave him severe constipation for a few minutes.

February 24, 2003

Pre-Crisis Superman was a god whose only weakness was a piece of rock that gave him severe constipation for a few minutes.

Wasn't there a period (I think it was in the 70s) when all the Kryptonite on earth had been turned to iron? I seem to remember Superman saying that when someone confronted him with a rock of the green stuff, one he'd somehow managed to harvest from space. I don't know what the relevant issues would be; I read it in one of those random compilations DC used to put out in the early 80s.

February 25, 2003

Wasn't there a period (I think it was in the 70s) when all the Kryptonite on earth had been turned to iron? I seem to remember Superman saying that when someone confronted him with a rock of the green stuff, one he'd somehow managed to harvest from space. I don't know what the relevant issues would be; I read it in one of those random compilations DC used to put out in the early 80s.

As the 1960's drew to a close and DC struggled to come to gripes with the new style of comics that Marvel had created, it was evident that the Superman franchise had become silly and irrelevant to an inceasingly sophisticated audience. It also didn't help that Superman's book sales were falling to new lows. DC management turned to Julius Schwartz to set things right and after a few years into his run as EiC, Schwartz hired his ace writer Denny O'Neil to take over the reigns of a dying Superman franchise.

In Superman #233 a freak accident changed all the kryptonite on Earth to iron, rendering it no longer a threat to Superman (in a classic, an uninformed street thug thrusts a kryptonite rock at Supes who, smiling broadly, takes it and eats it). A mysterious Superman doppelganger, created out of sand in the same freak explosion, siphoned away half of his power. The new owner of the Daily Planet, Galaxy Communications, through its mouthpiece, Morgan Edge, turned Clark the newspaperman into Clark the TV anchor, with a subsequent upgrading of his wardrobe. The finale came when the real Superman duked it out with his doppelganger and after an exhausting fight, Supes has to go one more round with an alien warlord who is looking to take a piece out of Supes' hide.

Many of these changes stayed in place, in one form or another, for years to come. However, the depowering of Superman (the limiting of his awesome abilities which was the real point of the whole exercise) did not. O'Neil wrote 13 issues before resigning in frustration and, within a few months, Superman was back to pushing planets around, flying through space and otherwise comporting himself on the level of the Gods.

March 23, 2003

So, me being late in the game and all, I just read this. My question is:

So, when did they let Batman back in the group, and if so, how?

March 23, 2003

Maybe Im wrong, but Bats was'nt "out", He leave the group but they never actually kicked him.

I think he returned after the fantasy/fables story.

JLA: Tower of Babel

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