Guest DVD Spree Report post Posted February 8, 2003 I've just posted a VERY detailed review (about the same as my Legends of Wrestling 2 review) for AKI's latest wrestling game, Kinnikuman, due out in March under the title Ultimate Muscle. Check it out here: http://thesmartmarks.com/artman/publish/ar...ticle_698.shtml Cheers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Flyboy Report post Posted February 8, 2003 What system is it for, Jay? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DVD Spree Report post Posted February 8, 2003 Whoops - it's for the GameCube. Better go update the review... Thanks for pointing that out bro! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RenegadeX28 Report post Posted February 9, 2003 I had no clue this game was being made by AKI.......must buy it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DVD Spree Report post Posted February 9, 2003 AKI tend to have that effect on people, don't they? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Flyboy Report post Posted February 9, 2003 Thanks for pointing that out bro! No problem, man. For GameCube, hm? I don't know whether to get this or Def Jam Vandetta. I'll probably pick Zelda over both of them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Flyboy Report post Posted February 9, 2003 AKI tend to have that effect on people, don't they? Without question. AKI can make anything worth buying... wrestling-wise. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DVD Spree Report post Posted February 9, 2003 For GameCube, hm? I don't know whether to get this or Def Jam Vandetta. I touched on this a little in the review, but since I've got more room here... From what I've played, Def jam feels a lot more like an update of No Mercy, in the same way that No Mercy felt like an update of WrestleMania 2000. The controls, mechanics, gameplay, and everything else still seems to be set in the traditional AKI mode. KinnikuMuscle, on the other hand, is a departure from AKI's traditional style, while at the same tmie remaining faithful to it, if that makes any sense. When you play it, it feels the same, but it's so different... I'm digging a hole here. Okay, take No Mercy, get rid of pins, brawling outside the ring, the slowdown, and make the grappling engine a little less sophisticated (i.e. less moves, less focus on counters/reversals/submissions/worknig a body part). Now jack up the speed, add in a new special meter with superbly amped-up power moves, a more arcadey feel and some distinctly Japanese flavour. That's the best way I can describe it. I'm still going to pick up Def Jam when it comes out, but I've got a feeling this is going to get more play in my Q, since (as I said) being that Def Jam is ANOTHER update of the AKI engine, it's ultimately the same game we started playing six years ago, whereas KinnikuMuscle is taking the series in a new direction. Although you're right about Zelda - it's better than Metroid. And it's SO FRIGGING COOL hearing that Ocarina tune from the intro blasting out. So many memories (sob!). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Flyboy Report post Posted February 9, 2003 Thanks for the news, Spree. But, you're making me jealous with all your insider info with the video games. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DVD Spree Report post Posted February 9, 2003 That's what you get working in the games industry : ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Flyboy Report post Posted February 9, 2003 You are truly lucky, my friend. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DVD Spree Report post Posted February 9, 2003 Well, sometimes I am. A couple years back, I was on a work placement with a games magazine, and we had THQ come into the office to show us the latest beta of Smack!Down 3 (whatever its tagline was). We could play the shit out of it, and we were allowed to take all the grabs we wanted (I think I took about 1,300 that some poor bastard had to sift through), but they wanted to veto which shots we published, because they wanted to keep some secret. They also gave us a date, before which we couldn't publish any shots or print anything. Fair enough. But I wasn't working for the mag, so I thought fuck it - I'll go post some shit on the web. I downloaded about a hundred shots to my laptop before the THQ guy got back, and I wrote a hands-on preview for a load of net sites that were big at the time (WrestlingGames.com was the one I really wanted to get on). I told them everything - who was in the game, what gimmick matches, I even offered pictures. And what happened? FUCK ALL. No-one believed a word I said. How shitty is that? Here I was with all this frigging inside shit, and I couldn't even let it out. Well, fuck 'em - WrestlingGames is a shadow of its former self and I'm leeching into the games industry. "The force is my ally"? Fuck the Force - Karma is my ally. And a powerful ally it is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MaskedDanger Report post Posted February 9, 2003 KinnikuMuscle, on the other hand, is a departure from AKI's traditional style, while at the same tmie remaining faithful to it, if that makes any sense. When you play it, it feels the same, but it's so different... I'm digging a hole here. Okay, take No Mercy, get rid of pins, brawling outside the ring, the slowdown, and make the grappling engine a little less sophisticated (i.e. less moves, less focus on counters/reversals/submissions/worknig a body part). Now jack up the speed, add in a new special meter with superbly amped-up power moves, a more arcadey feel and some distinctly Japanese flavour. That's the best way I can describe it. Not to sounds like a doomsayer, but Keee-rist. Reading the above quote, all I could think was, "Wow, this sounds like nothing I'd want to play!" I mean, I hope these changes you're talking about aren't nearly as serious as they sound because, according to this, KinnikuMuscle is going to be lacking in almost all of the little things that makes an AKI wrestling match great, while replacing it with stuff that I, and most AKI fans, want nothing to do with. Adding a Japanese feel and getting rid of the slowdown are okay, but everything else? Bah. Fewer moves and more arcadey feel my ass. If this game comes off the way it's described here, it'll be an incredible disappointment, for me at least. Way to go, guys. Secret to video game success: eliminate every quality that your loyal fanbase enjoys from you latest game. Then it'll sell like hotcakes. I guess it's DefJam for me then, but even that's not supposed to have a Create-A-Wrestler mode. *goes off to weep alone* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TonyJaymzReloaded Report post Posted February 9, 2003 damn spree, this is why i dont do gamecube reviews anymore...you outshine the fuck outa me So you got any insdier info on LOW3? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest goodhelmet Report post Posted February 9, 2003 tony, if you know spree like i know spree, all of his dvd and game reviews take days upon days to prepare. jujst take your time and don't 'rush' the product and your reviews could possibly be compared to his. plus, add pretty pictures. no one can master the images in article manager like jay can! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DVD Spree Report post Posted February 9, 2003 Not to sounds like a doomsayer, but Keee-rist. Reading the above quote, all I could think was, "Wow, this sounds like nothing I'd want to play!" I mean, I hope these changes you're talking about aren't nearly as serious as they sound because, according to this, KinnikuMuscle is going to be lacking in almost all of the little things that makes an AKI wrestling match great, while replacing it with stuff that I, and most AKI fans, want nothing to do with. Adding a Japanese feel and getting rid of the slowdown are okay, but everything else? Bah. Fewer moves and more arcadey feel my ass. If this game comes off the way it's described here, it'll be an incredible disappointment, for me at least. Way to go, guys. That's what most fans will think, and that's why I scored it lower than No Mercy in those respects. But for players like me who've been playing AKI wrestling games since the first one came out six years ago... Def Jam IS Virtual Pro Wrestling 64. It's smoother, prettierm, and it's full of rappers, but Christ, it's basically the same frigging game. It's still great, but after six years of playing the same game, it starts to feel tired no matter how good it is. I love chocolate, but if I that was all I ate for six years it'd get pretty dull. In THAT respect, Kinnikuman is so welcome. Because it retains so much of what makes No Mercy and co. great, but at the same time takes it in a slightly different direction, more akin to WrestleMania Arcade. Basically, if you're into what EA do with Madden 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003... all the same with a couple of tweaks, Def Jam is the way to go. But I think you should definitely check out Kinnikuman (or Ultimate Muscle as it will be called in the STates) on rental - I've never had a non-wrestling fan friend express any interest in playing No Mercy (although they love the shootfighting portion of VPW2), but everyone wants to play Kinnikuman. Different strokes, different folks... tony, if you know spree like i know spree, all of his dvd and game reviews take days upon days to prepare. jujst take your time and don't 'rush' the product and your reviews could possibly be compared to his. plus, add pretty pictures. no one can master the images in article manager like jay can! Such praise - I blush... Yeah, I work hard on my stuff. If it's been easy for me to write, it's not worth reading, IMHO. It should be fun to write, but it should also be tough. And yeah, the pictures add a lot - I'm sure my stuff's boring as hell without them... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DVD Spree Report post Posted February 9, 2003 I guess it's DefJam for me then, but even that's not supposed to have a Create-A-Wrestler mode. *goes off to weep alone* Sorry, forgot to say - that's right, no CAW for Def Jam. And did everyone hear Sanders Keel got fired from THQ? First AKI, then Keel. You tossers - some of us still remember Home Alone... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Flyboy Report post Posted February 9, 2003 Keel got fired?! When and why? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MaskedDanger Report post Posted February 9, 2003 I've been playing the AKI games since they came out simply because of those qualities I mentioned. When I want "arcadey," I play my copy of Smackdown. Smackdown is a fine series in its own right, but the AKI games should be something different. I'm all for a series evolving, which DefJam has done, in some respects. The combo strikes, the powering up for the finishers (something of a throwback to VPW2, which, for several reasons, I think has even better gameplay than No Mercy) the updated movesets, tweaks to the counter-system, all these are new additions that push the series forward. The problem I have is when a series devolves but claims it's "getting better." If I wanted to play something that was "like" No Mercy, except without all that pesky complexity and sophistication, I'd play that travesty Wrestlemania X8. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DVD Spree Report post Posted February 10, 2003 The problem I have is when a series devolves but claims it's "getting better." If I wanted to play something that was "like" No Mercy, except without all that pesky complexity and sophistication, I'd play that travesty Wrestlemania X8 Well, it's me that's claiming the series is getting better, not AKI, but in any case, it's really not fair to say the game is "devolved" without even having played it. Smack!Down is one of my least favourite games, although it's general consensus that VPW2 is the best of AKI's last generation efforts. Whether everyone ultimately likes it or hates it, the point I've been making is utterly underscored by comments like these: AKI have had the balls to NOT rehash the same frigging game once more, and people aren't interested for that very reason - the same reason Capcom are releasing six games that are GameCube-only, because of the multitude of dross and rehashed clones that plagues teh PS2. THAT'S JUST FUCKED UP. And none of what you've said even vaguley addresses my points: Def Jam feels the same as VPW64 did six years ago. It's only as "evolved" as much as No Mercy was from VPW2 (read: not much). But again, all of this is irrelevent - my point is that people are judging the game without attempting to understand it -bash teh fuck out o it once you've played it, but other than that, you're just reinforcing what I'm saying. Keel got fired?! When and why? The same reason that THQ lost AKI as a developer - they treat people like shit. Fuck THQ - let them do whatever they want with Yukes! and crank out shitty remakes of Twisted Metal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MaskedDanger Report post Posted February 10, 2003 But I'm using YOUR info to "bash" it. Isn't your info reliable? I know your statement of it being better is an opinion, but aren't your comments regarding the change to the fighting engine based on fact, on research, on actually playing the game and on your own keen observational skills? (Hint: they better be, if you're putting them in the review. As a former professional music reviewer, I kind of know what I'm talking about, here, although your delightful condescension has been noted.) If so, if the info is reliable, if it's based on fact, then what's wrong with me drawing a conclusion from it? Facts are facts, whether they're facts you discovered first or I discovered first. And by calling my reaction to your comments into question, you're not only obliquely take shots at the validity of your own review (and of reviewing in general, video game or not), but you kind of ignore one of the bases for logical thought: that a person is perfectly able to draw a conclusion based on facts, whether they, themselves, discovered those facts are not. In my own way, by posting my comments, I was trusting your take on the game. Silly me. And liking the way a game plays (in this case, No Mercy) doesn't turn someone into some sort of thoughtless gaming lemming. You say I didn't address your points, well you didn't address mine: Isn't it possible that just changing a game for the sake of changing it is a bullshit move? Change it for the better instead of just taking shit out and moving shit around to make it superficially seem different, when it's really just a handicapped version of same damn game, No Mercy Lite, or something. That's not balls; that's shitty, shitty game design. Between taking out worthwhile, interesting qualities of a game to get something "different" or keeping a game mostly the same (And with its increase in speed, new combo system and powering up for finishers, among other qualities, Def Jam plays noticeably different than No Mercy. The shift isn't revolutionary, I'll admit, but it does actually feel and play differently.), I'll take the "dross" every time. Look, I understand your point about bashing the game before I play it, but I also understand what the hell I like in a wrestling game, which is everything you said AKI took out or fucked with. Fine, screw me if you don't like my opinion, but don't act like I made some inexcusable logical fault, because I haven't. I simply stated an opinion based on the info I was given. Whatever. But I'm not trying to turn this into a pissing contest. Look, I’ll make you a deal; if your Ultimate Muscle ends up being better than Def Jam, I’ll buy you a puppy. Not everyone wants to play Ultimate Muscle (as you so perplexingly claimed in one of your posts) but everyone wants a puppy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TonyJaymzReloaded Report post Posted February 10, 2003 Hey DVDSpree, how much you think itd be to import Ultimate Muscle? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DVD Spree Report post Posted February 11, 2003 But I'm using YOUR info to "bash" it. Isn't your info reliable? I know your statement of it being better is an opinion, but aren't your comments regarding the change to the fighting engine based on fact, on research, on actually playing the game and on your own keen observational skills? (Hint: they better be, if you're putting them in the review. As a former professional music reviewer, I kind of know what I'm talking about, here, although your delightful condescension has been noted.) If so, if the info is reliable, if it's based on fact, then what's wrong with me drawing a conclusion from it? Facts are facts, whether they're facts you discovered first or I discovered first. And by calling my reaction to your comments into question, you're not only obliquely take shots at the validity of your own review (and of reviewing in general, video game or not), but you kind of ignore one of the bases for logical thought: that a person is perfectly able to draw a conclusion based on facts, whether they, themselves, discovered those facts are not. In my own way, by posting my comments, I was trusting your take on the game. Silly me. And liking the way a game plays (in this case, No Mercy) doesn't turn someone into some sort of thoughtless gaming lemming. You say I didn't address your points, well you didn't address mine: Isn't it possible that just changing a game for the sake of changing it is a bullshit move? Change it for the better instead of just taking shit out and moving shit around to make it superficially seem different, when it's really just a handicapped version of same damn game, No Mercy Lite, or something. That's not balls; that's shitty, shitty game design. Between taking out worthwhile, interesting qualities of a game to get something "different" or keeping a game mostly the same (And with its increase in speed, new combo system and powering up for finishers, among other qualities, Def Jam plays noticeably different than No Mercy. The shift isn't revolutionary, I'll admit, but it does actually feel and play differently.), I'll take the "dross" every time. Look, I understand your point about bashing the game before I play it, but I also understand what the hell I like in a wrestling game, which is everything you said AKI took out or fucked with. Fine, screw me if you don't like my opinion, but don't act like I made some inexcusable logical fault, because I haven't. I simply stated an opinion based on the info I was given. Whatever. But I'm not trying to turn this into a pissing contest. Look, I’ll make you a deal; if your Ultimate Muscle ends up being better than Def Jam, I’ll buy you a puppy. Not everyone wants to play Ultimate Muscle (as you so perplexingly claimed in one of your posts) but everyone wants a puppy. I'm not keen to get into a to-and-fro on this, but here we go anyway... Firstly, if you were using my "info" to "bash it", then explain: The problem I have is when a series devolves but claims it's "getting better." Not to be pedantic - well, actually, that's exactly what I'm being - but the syntax of your statement clearly states that it is THE SERIES, not me, that "claims it's 'getting better.' " Don't put words into my mouth. In actuality, "my info" clearly draws the distinction between two categories of people, and what will be expected by them. While I did express my own opinion and preference, I also clearly stated that I would be in the minority, for reasons that you so eloquently iterate. I didn't say anything was better than anything else - I simply pointed out that, in many respects, it's a step forward, while Def Jam by the same virtues appears to be a step back. Isn't your info reliable? I know your statement of it being better is an opinion, but aren't your comments regarding the change to the fighting engine based on fact, on research, on actually playing the game and on your own keen observational skills? (Hint: they better be, if you're putting them in the review. As a former professional music reviewer, I kind of know what I'm talking about, here, although your delightful condescension has been noted.) If so, if the info is reliable, if it's based on fact, then what's wrong with me drawing a conclusion from it? Facts are facts, whether they're facts you discovered first or I discovered first. And by calling my reaction to your comments into question, you're not only obliquely take shots at the validity of your own review (and of reviewing in general, video game or not), but you kind of ignore one of the bases for logical thought: that a person is perfectly able to draw a conclusion based on facts, whether they, themselves, discovered those facts are not. In my own way, by posting my comments, I was trusting your take on the game. Silly me. Another redundant argument. You're good at these. REVIEWS ARE OPINION. As a self-proclaimed professional music reviewer, you should be aware of this. I say it's great, someone else says it's shite. Both people are expressing opinions, yet by your definition, they are expressing facts. So who's right? Not you, because you're talking bollocks. For someone who claims to be a reviewer to contest that all reviews are fact is absurd; to claim that someone can gauge their own personal opinion solely through someone else's, without any personal knowledge or experience of the article being reviewed... gee, that's pretty crazy. "I was trusting your take on the game. Silly me." Yes, EXACTLY my point - silly fucking you. But then again, everything I say is fact, so you are an asshole. And liking the way a game plays (in this case, No Mercy) doesn't turn someone into some sort of thoughtless gaming lemming. You say I didn't address your points, well you didn't address mine: Isn't it possible that just changing a game for the sake of changing it is a bullshit move? Change it for the better instead of just taking shit out and moving shit around to make it superficially seem different, when it's really just a handicapped version of same damn game, No Mercy Lite, or something. That's not balls; that's shitty, shitty game design. Between taking out worthwhile, interesting qualities of a game to get something "different" or keeping a game mostly the same (And with its increase in speed, new combo system and powering up for finishers, among other qualities, Def Jam plays noticeably different than No Mercy. The shift isn't revolutionary, I'll admit, but it does actually feel and play differently.), I'll take the "dross" every time. Exactly what didn't I address? I've already said that No Mercy is great, that Def Jam is expanding it in all the right ways. However, it is not necessarily a "bullshit move" to change a game just "for the sake of changing it". Why make Zelda cel-shaded? Isn't that just changing it for the sake of changing it? Hence, is that inherently a bullshit move? Fuck, why bother making a 3D fighting game when 2D fighting games were doing great - is that a bullshit move? You seem to know surprisingly little about reviewing OR videogames. No Mercy Lite, or something. That's not balls; that's shitty, shitty game design. Actually, "No Mercy Lite" is a great way to sum up the game. Well done! Keep that puppy for yourself! Although it's still retarded to form an opinion without first-hand experience. Scott Keith give sa lot of matches four stars that are of no interest to me, but shit, everything that a reviewer says is fact.. The shift isn't revolutionary, I'll admit That's all I'm fucking arguing! No Mercy was such a disappointment because it was VPW2 with a facelift and a couple more gimmicks. I'm not the only person to express the feeling that, while the engine is rock solid, damn good, and probably the best ever, Chirst, it's getting tired. They need to do something to inject a bit of innovation into the series. Mario Sunshine is great because it's markedly evolved from Super Mario Bros. - Def Jam is only superficially evolved from VPW64. THAT IS MY FUCKING POINT, YOU HAVE CONCEDED IT. Trotting out the same shit with a couple of extras year after year is indeed "dross", and I have no doubt tat you would take it every time. That's why companies like EA make a fortune from people like you without ever having to innovate their shit. Well done for helping purge videogames of creativity. Five Capcom titles are being developed especially to curb the effects of people like you, and I'm grateful for it. Whatever. Quite. The point IS NOT which game is better than the other, because I've already said a million bloody times that Kinnikuman is better in some, subjective respects, but is, in others, inferior. My review takes both perspectives into account, while also asknig the reader not to be so frigging closed-minded. Reviews are GUIDANCE, not concrete fact - there are about three hundred reveiwers in Bath who agree with me. Profssional music reviewer or not, you seem to know litle about reviews or reviewing. Between taking out worthwhile, interesting qualities of a game to get something "different" or keeping a game mostly the same (And with its increase in speed, new combo system and powering up for finishers, among other qualities, Def Jam plays noticeably different than No Mercy. The shift isn't revolutionary, I'll admit, but it does actually feel and play differently.), I'll take the "dross" every time. You don't start clauses with capital letters or end them with full stops. everyone wants a puppy. Hey, it's Jerry Lawler. Come back at me however you want to on this, because you really don't seem to be understanding a damn word I'm saying. Which is a shame, because arguments are generally only fun with intelligent people. And after all that: Hey DVDSpree, how much you think itd be to import Ultimate Muscle? Sorry dude, I got sidetracked. I'm not sure how much it'd be, because I'm in the UK, so US importers are out of my league. I can heartily recommend some companies over here, but you're better off trying to track down some more local importers over there. It's probably worth starting a thread in the videogames folder, because I'm sure everyone else would appreciate it too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MaskedDanger Report post Posted February 11, 2003 Moved to No Holds Barred folder by author. If curious, check thread "To DVD Spree, my Valentine." Cheers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DVD Spree Report post Posted February 11, 2003 Everyone, meet my number one fan. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ronixis Report post Posted February 12, 2003 Great Review, however-One Tiny Mistake Fox BOX... Not Fox Kids. Otherwise 5 Stars! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Repo Man jr Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Hey DVDSpree, how much you think itd be to import Ultimate Muscle? Sorry dude, I got sidetracked. I'm not sure how much it'd be, because I'm in the UK, so US importers are out of my league. I can heartily recommend some companies over here, but you're better off trying to track down some more local importers over there. It's probably worth starting a thread in the videogames folder, because I'm sure everyone else would appreciate it too. What are some good UK ones please? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DVD Spree Report post Posted February 21, 2003 Well, I got my copy from http://www.FL-games.com in France. But don't be put off - they're REALLY good. They sell in Euros, so the current exchange rate is pretty good for us (all the new games cost about £37), and delivery is between 3 days and a week. They're even good at answering emails quickly, and in English to boot. Other than that, I've always bought from http://www.anotherworld.co.uk, who charge the usual import prices (£59.99) but are damn quick at shipping. I've ordered from http://www.projectk.com before, but not recently so I can't really comment on them. I'd definitely recommend Fl-games first, then Another World if you'd rather not order from abroad, but they've always treated me good. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Repo Man jr Report post Posted February 21, 2003 Thanks a lot dude. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest mach7 Report post Posted February 26, 2003 Awesome. I've been waiting for a good Kinnikuman game [released in North America] since that crapfest they released on the NES in the 80's. This looks fucking amazing! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
