NATO dispute solved

[Zorin Industries 0]

What a wonderfully witty and unbiased view of French Military history

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

France is the greatest running joke of all-time. Every effort should be made to keep it from collapsing.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

"Who is Tyler by the way? He's leading the Liberal Takeover of the CE folder."

 

I just noticed this, actually. Liberals are taking over this folder? I felt that a balance had finally been reached, to be honest, with neither side having a clear advantage. That's how I like it!

 

And Tyler, of COURSE the expulsion of the nobility is why it failed, silly! I mean, the obvious solution was to keep the people around who enforced the status quo which helped cause the revoultion. What book were YOU reading? </late-night I need to go to sleep sarcasm>

Actually, I personally think it's pretty balanced myself; someone simply pointed out that quote to me and I figured it was sig-worthy.

 

As far as the revolution goes...

 

*sigh*

 

I bet the nobility REALLY was pushing for reform as they got their priveledges and pissed off the bourgeousie.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

- Hundred Years War - Mostly lost

 

- Italian Wars - Lost.

 

- Thirty Years War - France is technically not a participant,

but manages to get invaded anyway.

Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other

participants started ignoring her.

 

- War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and

Indian War - Lost, but claimed as a tie.

Three ties in a row induces deluded Frogophiles the world

over to label the period as the height of French military

power.

 

- American Revolution - In a move that will become quite

familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even

though the English colonists saw far more action.

This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads

to the Second Rule of French Warfare:

"France only wins when America does most of the fighting."

 

- French Revolution - Won, primarily due the fact that the

opponent was also French.

 

- The Napoleonic Wars - Lost.

Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to

leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match

for a British footwear designer.

 

- The Franco-Prussian War - Lost.

Germany first plays the role of drunk Frat boy to

France's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.

 

- World War I - Tied and on the way to losing,

France is saved by the United States.

 

- Algerian Rebellion - Lost.

Loss marks the first defeat of a western army by a

Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades,.

 

- War on Terrorism - France, keeping in mind its recent

history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just to be safe.

Hundred Years War - Objective was to get a real Frenchman on the throne, succeeded. Also left the English with Calais as their only mainland possession. That's a pretty resounding win, considering the English owned about 40% of modern-day France when the conflict began.

 

Italian Wars - Should be labeled Papal Wars, since the French monarchs were in conflict with Rome, as no real Italy existed yet. Also, it was France against the forces of Rome, Switzerland, and the Holy Roman Empire. Charles V's ascension to the throne of Holy Roman emperor ended the conflict without the French or anyone really losing, since he turned on Rome shortly after his election.

 

Thirty Years War - Cardinal Richeleu sees an opportunity to gain territory and power in a future German vaccum, so he initiates French involvement to prevent any sort of English intervention on behalf of the Protestants, beyond financial aid, anyway, and invades the Saar- and Rhinelands. France neither wins nor loses this one.

 

Three Different Wars That You Lumped Together That Aren't The Same One As You Implied - Draw, Loss, Loss. I'm not a deluded Frogophile, because I don't believe this to be the height of French military power. The real height would be the First Napoleonic War.

 

American Revolution - France claims a victory because Britain's colonial power base in America was shaken and reduced to virtually nothing. Let's also ignore the 10,000 men Layfayette showed up with in 1778.

 

French Revolution - Not a war, smartass. But, yes, they did win by holding off invasions from other European powers attempting to invade and restore a monarchy.

 

Napoleonic Wars - First Won, then Lost due to ambition. Corsica was part of France then, so I fail to see your point there. Also, Wellington's advances from the Iberian peninsula didn't do nearly as much damage as the combined Russian, Austrian, and Prussian forces pressing in from the East, but to accomodate for your own stilted view you ignore their 3:1 manpower advantage and go for the witty British footwear designer remark, neglecting to call this designer a General and Lord, which he was incredibly good with, not to mention having almost the same manpower advantage the Eastern allies did.

 

You neglected to include the Crimean War, but since they fought alongside Britain and Austria, you'd say how they couldn't win by themselves while also neglecting to include the fact that the idea of single European countries fighting each other without alliances has been a pretty novel one for a few hundred years now.

 

Franco-Prussian War - France loses badly, yes, but let's see any nation win a war with a collapsing economy and a revolution in motion at its capital against a militarily superior and more numerous opponent.

 

World War I - In a stalemate with Germany alongside Britain, America shows up to turn the tide of the numbers.

 

Algerian Rebellion - Withdrawn due to, once again, civil unrest at home. Also, to say that it was the first defeat of a Western army by a Muslim force since the Crusades TOTALLY IGNORES THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE'S EXISTENCE. But, once again, that's not friendly with your total and utter bias.

 

Oh yeah, almost forgot, we didn't win in Vietnam either, so I fail to see your point with Indochina.

 

War on Terrorism - France, in order to protect its Iraqi investments, attempts to persuade allies not to be so hasty in invading.

 

The others are simply too draped in sardonic elitism to really care about.

 

EDIT: And Tyler, I was only being sarcastic about the nobility part. This folder has become balanced, correct.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

Um, that's not even remotely true.

Ok I'll reword that statement. The French Revolution failed once the extremist started too gain power around 1790. Robespierre took power in 1792, and the Reign of Terror started. I would say once mass executions happen and Napoleon becomes Emperor 12 years after the revolution started the French Revolution failed.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

What about WWII?

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

What about WWII?

We've already addressed this. Britain bailed, the French were outgunned, outmanned, and Hitler was already ordering Paris to be reduced to an inferno. The French did the smart thing and surrendered. I'm starting to wonder if people are still going to bring up countries' WWII behaviors even after the last people who fought in it died. You know, consider the Germans Nazis still, the French to be surrenderers, the Americans to be magical saviors, and the Japanese shifty sneak-attackers.

 

EDIT: So why don't we make fun of Britain for evacuating the mainland at Dunkirk? It was effectively running away, if you think about it. Oh yeah, we hate the French. Sorry, I forgot.

[Zorin Industries 0]

What about the French who went to join De Gaulles Free French or the French Resistance? Would you go up to them in the street and call them cowards?

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

Did the US not save their asses?

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

You're inconsolable. I'm not pursuing this anymore.

 

"Yes, you are correct. The United States single-handedly won the Second World War for the Allied Powers, and the Soviet Union's unstoppable push through Eastern Europe had nothing to do with Germany being weakened enough for France to have been able to liberate themselves given another year or year and a half of German weakening and commitment to the Eastern Front. I bow to your incredible grasp of history and all that lies within, including the 'US saves countries like Jesus saves people' corollary."

[Guest imajackoff?]

I was going to post the same thing. The French have rolled over more times than Jasmine St. Claire.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

You're inconsolable. I'm not pursuing this anymore.

 

"Yes, you are correct. The United States single-handedly won the Second World War for the Allied Powers, and the Soviet Union's unstoppable push through Eastern Europe had nothing to do with Germany being weakened enough for France to have been able to liberate themselves given another year or year and a half of German weakening and commitment to the Eastern Front. I bow to your incredible grasp of history and all that lies within, including the 'US saves countries like Jesus saves people' corollary."

I'm just balancing your "the US has done and never will do diddly shit for anyone" viewpoint.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

My biggest problem with the French during WWII is the Vichy Gov't. They where nothing but puppets for the the Nazis.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

No, I will keep with this, because you've come totally out of left field with an accusation that can't be found anywhere in anything I said. That long post about the French didn't have the United States within it because it was supposed to be about the French. Yes, the Americans' involvement in European conflicts has hastened an ending, but I refuse to ignore the contributions of other countries in the name of blind patriotism.

[Guest Kingpk]

See, this is why the French are looked at poorly, their leader is having a hissy fit over what the EU decided yesterday:

 

Chirac lashes out at "New Europe"

 

Telling countries eligible for EU membership to "shut up" if they want to join? Think that doesn't look REALLY bad to the world community?

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

(sigh) NOW they're starting to annoy me. That has no bearing on the past that we've been discussing, but that's awfully petty and teenager-ish on the part of France.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

No, I will keep with this, because you've come totally out of left field with an accusation that can't be found anywhere in anything I said. That long post about the French didn't have the United States within it because it was supposed to be about the French. Yes, the Americans' involvement in European conflicts has hastened an ending, but I refuse to ignore the contributions of other countries in the name of blind patriotism.

OK, I did the jump the gun, there. Sorry. It's clear you know the US made a large contribution. And, believe it or not, I recognize the contributions made by other countries.

 

I'm glad you kept with it anyway, 'cause it means more Kylie Minogue for me.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Glad we had a civil ending, and no hard feelings from anyone.

 

+1 Kylie showing.

[Guest The Hamburglar]

The sad thing is, the French can't stand Chirac. He only got in so that Le Pen would have no chance of winning. They literally have no one the people truly like to govern them, which is a disturbing trend in the capitalist West these days. But anyways, France's position on Eastern Europe and Turkey as regards the EU is plain unacceptable. Turkey joining could save the EU, and would strengthen the ideal of secular governments in Muslim countries.

[Guest MD2020]

Kotzenjunge, thanks for the response. Very intersting, but I think you put way too much time and effort into it. I only cut-and-pasted it from another site, and didn't take it seriously at all. However, you should be commended for your effort.

[Guest Crazy Dan]

I just thought I throw in this fact that I read. The French lost about 100,000 troops to Nazi Germany before they finally surrendered. So it wasn't like the just threw down their arms and fled at first sight.

 

And also remember the French did mourn those who were lost to 9/11, so they aren't terribly bad, it's their leader who is an absolute putz.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Kotzenjunge, thanks for the response. Very intersting, but I think you put way too much time and effort into it. I only cut-and-pasted it from another site, and didn't take it seriously at all. However, you should be commended for your effort.

Boy, there's egg on my face now.

 

(blushes and hides)