NATO dispute solved

[Guest Kingpk]

BRUSSELS, Belgium (Feb. 16) - NATO agreed to begin planning defense measures to aid Turkey in the event of a U.S.-led war in Iraq, breaking a monthlong stalemate that had opened the biggest rift in the West since the Cold War.

 

But European Union leaders faced a bruising summit, with France showing no sign of backing down in its opposition to U.S. plans to force Iraq to disarm.

 

The NATO alliance of the United States and 18 other nations finally reached agreement late Sunday after France was shut out of talks. The other holdouts in the deadlock, Germany and Belgium, then dropped objections to begin the planning to send military aid to Turkey if it is attacked by neighboring Iraq, NATO officials said.

 

"Alliance solidarity has prevailed,'' NATO Secretary-General Lord Robertson said. "We have been able collectively to overcome the impasse.''

 

The United States called the decision a "very big step forward'' for the alliance - even without France.

 

"We have a clear NATO decision to plan for the support for Turkey,'' U.S. Ambassador Nicholas Burns said. "And within several days, we have a clear commitment by all 18 allies that we will deploy AWACS and Patriot systems to Turkey.''

 

He was referring to the 18 other members besides France.

 

But there was little sign that the breakthrough at NATO would avert a confrontation Monday at an emergency EU summit called to find a common position on Iraq and end the deep division in that 15-nation bloc.

 

After the breakthrough at NATO, France, Germany and Belgium issued a statement balancing their commitment to honor their defense obligations with their desire to disarm Iraq peacefully. The statement said not all alternatives to military force had been "fully exploited.''

 

Belgium said it hoped the NATO breakthrough would produce agreement at the EU, but there must be a peaceful solution over Iraq.

 

"We, Belgium, Germany and France, will continue to defend the view that we must have a peaceful solution through the United Nations,'' Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt told a news conference.

 

The United States tried Sunday to defuse the trans-Atlantic row, although Washington would not back down on demanding swift action to disarm Iraq. National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice said Washington was not interested in retribution against France and other allies.

 

"We don't need to allow this to become a street fight between the United States and France, the United States and Germany,'' she said on NBC.

 

NATO had been stymied for a month over opposition from France, Germany and Belgium to a U.S.-backed plan to begin planning for possible military aid to Turkey in the event of war with Iraq. Turkey, the only NATO state to border Iraq, is a possible launching point for U.S. military action.

 

Agreement was threatened when Belgium demanded linking any NATO deployment to developments at the U.N. Security Council, but the final statement made no firm commitment.

 

"We continue to support efforts in the United Nations to find a peaceful solution to the crisis,'' the NATO statement said.

 

The United States wants NATO to send early-warning aircraft, missile defenses and anti-biochemical units to Turkey in case Iraq attacks.

 

There was no sign of easy agreement at Monday's EU meeting, diplomats said, with neither side apparently willing to compromise. France and Germany wanted the EU to back them and insist there was no case for war against Iraq at this time, a position rejected by Britain.

 

Diplomats predicted the summit would, at best, produce a bland statement of unity without solving the split.

 

Greece, the current EU president, has warned the group faces a crisis if it fails to agree on a common position on Iraq. But Greek diplomats said they were too uncertain of the outcome to even propose a joint position for discussion.

 

Paris and Berlin have lead the opposition to U.S. demands to swiftly disarm Saddam Hussein. Washington, with strong British support, says Iraq is concealing weapons of mass destruction and not cooperating with a U.N. resolution to disarm.

 

The EU split erupted when the leaders of eight countries - Spain, Portugal, Italy, Britain, Hungary, Poland and Denmark and the Czech Republic - signed a letter supporting the United States. France, caught by surprise, was enraged, seeing it as a direct challenge.

 

France reiterated that U.N. weapons inspectors can disarm Iraq peacefully and must have more time. French Foreign Minister Dominque de Villepin rejected U.S. and British calls for a second U.N. resolution authorizing action.

 

"For us, such a resolution is not necessary while inspections continue to advance,'' he told the Journal du Dimanche newspaper.

 

De Villepin urged Europe to unite on Iraq, suggesting the United States could not alone ensure global security. He also rejected ousting Saddam in a rebuff to Washington and London, who say the Iraqi leader is a threat.

 

"That is not acceptable, and above all, it's dangerous,'' he was quoted as saying.

 

The anti-war camp was boosted by protests around the world Saturday, when millions marched against war. That came after U.N. weapons inspectors said Friday that Iraq had shown some signs of improving its cooperation.

 

British Prime Minister Tony Blair, the strongest U.S. ally in Europe, needs a second U.N. resolution to swing around a population largely opposed to war. Blair received a boost Sunday when senior ministers urged the divided governing Labor Party to back the premier.

 

The summit is seen as a crucial test of the EU's drive to forge a united front on foreign policy and security issues. Failure to work out a common stand on Iraq could exacerbate divisions over the EU's future, especially the drive by France and Germany to create a power capable of balancing the United States on the world stage.

 

But many EU members are reluctant to surrender their foreign policy and are determined to retain strong ties with the United States, which they see as essential to their security. Several eastern European states preparing to join the EU were excluded from attending Monday's meeting because of their strong pro-U.S. stance.

 

France and Germany, which long have dominated the EU, are anxious to cement their claim to pre-eminence before the expansion of the union to 25 nations.

 

Also Sunday, Turkey appeared to take a step back from its already lukewarm backing of the United States, with the government saying a Tuesday vote on allowing U.S. troops to base in Turkey for war with Iraq likely will be delayed.

 

The announcement came after the foreign minister returned from Washington, where he was unable to successfully negotiate an aid package for Ankara against likely economic disruptions should there be war

 

So, what do you think about this? Should the UN do the same to their dissenters?

[Guest JMA]

I may be in the minority, but I don't hate or even resent France for their actions. Heck, I don't support the war so why should I care they don't? Besides, we've all heard the stigma and bad jokes about France not being very useful in times of war. I kinda like France myself.

[Guest DrTom]

As much as I think the UN has become a cruel joke, I don't think they should do that to dissenters. Each voice should be heard, even if it's unpopular, and even if goes against the majority. The principles this country was founded on demand no less.

 

But I'm all in favor of telling France to fuck off, just on general principle.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Since they're the sole dissenting voice now, I'm all for this shut-out. Now had they shut out Germany and Belgium as well, I'd have been mighty peeved, but that's all moot now.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

I kinda like France myself.

Don't you know that "Though shall hate France" is the 11th Commandment. May god have mercy on your soul.

[Guest JMA]

I kinda like France myself.

Don't you know that "Though shall hate France" is the 11th Commandment. May god have mercy on your soul.

My only commandment is "Do as thou will." Can you guess who came up with that?

[Guest Vern Gagne]

I kinda like France myself.

Don't you know that "Though shall hate France" is the 11th Commandment. May god have mercy on your soul.

My only commandment is "Do as thou will." Can you guess who came up with that?

My Son even the non-believers are supposed to follow that commandment.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Anyone ever been to France?

 

Everywhere I went, if I tried to speak basic French, I'd hear them mutter in their stupid little frog accents "Steeyupid Americansah."

[Guest MrRant]

I remind you all of the NO MA'AM Commandments:

 

1. It is OK to call hooters 'knockers' and sometimes snack trays

2. It is wrong to be French

3. It is OK to put all bad people in a giant meat grinder

4. Lawyers, see rule three

5. It is OK to drive a gas guzzler if it helps you get babes

6. Everyone should car pool except me

7. Bring back the word stewardess

8. Synchronized swimming is not a sport

9. Mud wrestling is a sport

10. Ok, so there are 9 commandments

[Guest DrTom]

Anyone ever been to France?

I have, though it's been a while. I went during spring break my senior year of high school, in 1992. Thankfully, I had taken French in HS, so I was able to at least carry on basic conversations and ask about things. It also helped with the slutty French chicks in the discotheques, too.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Calling the places "Discotheques" still is reason enough to not hate the French, I think.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

Okay, it's not a stigma. If I may quote Groundskeeper Willie, the French truly are cheese-eating surrender monkeys. If it wasn't for us, they'd be goose-stepping all over Europe to this day. Good for NATO.

[Guest bob_barron]

I've also been to France.

 

Fucking frogs need to clean up after their dogs

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

I hate the whole "They surrendered in the face of overwhelming odds and because everyone gave up on them so we're going to consider them worthless forever and ignore everything they did prior to 1940" attitude.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

What about the countries that didn't surrender?

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

They got smashed and reduced to rubble. The French were looking out for themselves. I find nothing wrong with wanting to keep that from happening to my country if I'm a head of state.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

I don't hate the French for surrendering (although, it simply gives me something more about which to make fun of them).

 

I hate them because they hate me.

 

Seriously, when I visited France, they pointed me out as an American and discriminated against me like I was a black guy in the 50's.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Now that's perfectly good grounds for disliking them. I just can't bring myself to hate them because I love so much of what they've done before the 20th century, culturally and all.

[Guest The Hamburglar]

I love the way the French are such rude bastards. No other nation does it with such style. I'd be offended if they didn't look at me like I'm a piece of shit. Or vigorously try to run me over when I try to cross a road. Apropos of tat, as anti-war as the French seem now, I'd be willing to bet that had terrorists flown a plane into the Eiffel Tower their response would have been a little more strident then attacking two utterly useless countries. They would have probably nuked half the Middle East out of pique. Their Americanophobia is a little tiring, though. And this Turkey business is not on, Turkey should have been in the EU years ago, its only French anti-Muslim feeling that's keeping them out.

[Guest DrTom]

The thing is, we've bailed the French out of numerous things since 1945, and they still hate us. They got stomped by a superior force in WWII, so I can't really hold that against them (conspiring with the Nazis, though, is another matter). However, here are a couple of things Gordon Sinclair pointed out in his "America: The Good Neighbor" radio essay:

 

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

 

Maybe sentiment would be more in favor of the French if they weren't so busy spitting on us, despite the fact that we've bent over backwards to help them on several occasions.

[Guest JMA]

I view anti-France statements the same way I view anti-Canada statements. I view them as total bullsh*t.

[Guest Jack Tunney]

France did help the US win the American Revolution though.So if not for France we'd be speaking....uh...English still I guess.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

France, to me, has always seemed to be a country more concerned with its economical well-being more than that of its military well-being. Almost any case of them being for or against anything in the last 400-500 years is based on their economic interests, as opposed to other countries who might have taken a more pride- or territory-based system of policies.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

France did help the US win the American Revolution though.So if not for France we'd be speaking....uh...English still I guess.

I'm sure the people who knew that would thank the French. Hell Lafayette is an honorary citizen, and him and his are buried in Dirt brought over from the United States. An American flag was placed at his grave after WWI, and remained through Nazi Occupation through today.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Interesting fact:

 

Lafeyette was one of the biggest bumbling idiots in the French Revolution.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

The French revolution was doomed to fail. The extremist gained power and killed and exiled all the nobility who could of helped in create a better gov't.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Um, that's not even remotely true.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

"Who is Tyler by the way? He's leading the Liberal Takeover of the CE folder."

 

I just noticed this, actually. Liberals are taking over this folder? I felt that a balance had finally been reached, to be honest, with neither side having a clear advantage. That's how I like it!

 

And Tyler, of COURSE the expulsion of the nobility is why it failed, silly! I mean, the obvious solution was to keep the people around who enforced the status quo which helped cause the revoultion. What book were YOU reading? </late-night I need to go to sleep sarcasm>

[Guest Tim]

Anyone care to make a picture of a plan for invasion of France for my sig?

[Guest MD2020]

I hate the whole "They surrendered in the face of overwhelming odds and because everyone gave up on them so we're going to consider them worthless forever and ignore everything they did prior to 1940" attitude.

Well, it's just not WWII we're talking about. I saw this floating around the net during the last couple of days, so if it's been posted already, I apologize. And remember, as with all things on message boards, especially concerning the French, try not to take it too seriously:

 

The Complete Military History of France

 

- Gallic Wars - Lost.

In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years

of French history, France is conquered by of all things,

an Italian.

 

- Hundred Years War - Mostly lost

France is saved at the last by a female schizophrenic

who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare;

"France's armies are victorious only when not led by

a Frenchman."

 

- Italian Wars - Lost.

France becomes the first and only country to ever lose

two wars when fighting Italians.

 

- Wars of Religion - France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots

 

- Thirty Years War - France is technically not a participant,

but manages to get invaded anyway.

Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other

participants started ignoring her.

 

- War of Devolution - Tied.

Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as chapeaux.

 

- The Dutch War - Tied

 

- War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and

Indian War - Lost, but claimed as a tie.

Three ties in a row induces deluded Frogophiles the world

over to label the period as the height of French military

power.

 

- War of the Spanish Succession - Lost.

The War also gave the French their first taste of a

Marlborough, which they have loved ever since.

 

- American Revolution - In a move that will become quite

familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even

though the English colonists saw far more action.

This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads

to the Second Rule of French Warfare:

"France only wins when America does most of the fighting."

 

- French Revolution - Won, primarily due the fact that the

opponent was also French.

 

- The Napoleonic Wars - Lost.

Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to

leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match

for a British footwear designer.

 

- The Franco-Prussian War - Lost.

Germany first plays the role of drunk Frat boy to

France's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.

 

- World War I - Tied and on the way to losing,

France is saved by the United States. Thousands of

French women find out what it's like to not only sleep

with a winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein."

Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces

forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.

 

- World War II - Lost.

Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain

just as they finish learning the "Horst Wiessel Song".

 

- War in Indochina - Lost.

French forces plead sickness, take to bed with the

Dien Bien Flu

 

- Algerian Rebellion - Lost.

Loss marks the first defeat of a western army by a

Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and

produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare; "We can

always beat the French."

This rule is identical to the First Rules of the

Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish,

Vietnamese and Esquimaux.

 

- War on Terrorism - France, keeping in mind its recent

history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just to be safe.

Attempts to surrender to Vietnamese ambassador, fails after

he takes refuge in a McDonald's.

 

The question for any country silly enough to count on the

French should not be "Can we count on the French?",

but rather "How long until France collapses?"