Guest Shanghai Kid Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 I've been watching wrestling for 10 years, so I know a little bit too. Bottom line here is, entertainment doesn't always make a good match. Shawn Micheals matches don't do it for you, other people think of them as good. What we need to do is get other people's opinions besides ours so that we can get a sense of what the majority opinion is.
Guest RavishingRickRudo Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 Basically, you are a bit more harsher on Michaels than I am - but the foundation for our 'opinions' are the same.
Guest Choken One Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 I've been watching wrestling for 10 years, so I know a little bit too. Bottom line here is, entertainment doesn't always make a good match. Shawn Micheals matches don't do it for you, other people think of them as good. What we need to do is get other people's opinions besides ours so that we can get a sense of what the majority opinion is. You're right...Let's just take a Secret ballot here... PM everyone and ask simply Thumbs Up or Down...No commentary or any bullshit...just a straight up answer...
Guest Shanghai Kid Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 Ya, it's a handicapped match. Like the Dudley Boyz vs Cheif Morely in a tables match. Mighty- "Rudo, GET THE TABLES!"
Guest RavishingRickRudo Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 Majority opinion Shmajority Shmopinion. *Smiles a devilish smile* But isn't the whole purpose of being a wrestler to put on entertaining matches? Isn't wrestling, by its own definition and worked nature, entertainment? Therefore the most entertaining match is the best wrestling match?
Guest Shanghai Kid Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 Rudo, by that logic, does it not make HBK a good worker?
Guest Choken One Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 Great....Now you've opened a new can of worms...
Guest RavishingRickRudo Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 What worms? By that Logic it makes Hogan one of the best wrestlers on the planet since he entertained the most people...
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 I don't think so. Like you said earlier. A wrestling match is to work the crowd. And you achieve this through a sense of realism in your match including selling. Shanghai if I kick your ass for 20 minutes would you be able to get up and kick me in the face and knock me out with that one blow? I don't think so unless you got the world's most powerful kick and are immune to pain and fatigue. See that's where there's a problem with HBK's matches. Yes most matches aren't as realistic as they could be but Shawn's and other bad matches stick out like a sore thumb. They don't make sense. How is this guy able to jump up and kill his enemy with one blow? Just like Hogan. It was superhero-esque. While that can be entertaining it doesn't make sense to the match as a whole. See what I'm saying?
Guest Shanghai Kid Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 Well then, let's close it like an expired can of Chef Boyarde Beefy Raviolie.
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 By your definition up there Rudo that makes anyone who ever popped a crowd a good worker.
Guest Choken One Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 That also means...Jim Duggan is greater then Flair...because he ALWAYS popped a crowd...
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 Yes that's why we can't go by that. I don't like using Scott Keith because he's a complete fool but he did say one thing that made sense. When he said that you can't judge a match on how entertaining it is. Because then Angle/Big Show at Backlash 00 would be *****.
Guest Shanghai Kid Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 Ya but Duggan popped the crowd in the cheapest ways. What American crowd isn't going to get behind a USA chant?
Guest Choken One Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 I just look at SK as another opinion...No more then the rest of you guys...Only SK doesn't ALWAYS drone on...he might occasionally make a funny or interesting comment...
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 Yes but they were still entertained. So he must be a great wrestler for popping them. Look a good match is entertaining. But that doesn't mean that an entertaining match is a good match. Shawn Michaels had very entertaining matches. Just not good ones. Look what i said up there above your Chef Boyardee commment. That is another reason why his matches aren't good.
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 Hey we were in the midst of a heated debate. It appears to be dieing down now but it'll spark again in the morning when everyone starts signing on.
Guest RavishingRickRudo Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 Yep. That's not really my definition, it is a definition that one could use to approach wrestling. If we are being objective we must consider that definition as being a possible one. If that's how you look at wrestling then so be it - but it's not really looking at it at a very 'deep' level. "I enjoyed it" is a pretty bad standard IMO because it doesn't require thought, and thought is good...most of the time, at least. There is the artistic level, the athletic level, hell, even the business/political level. Wrestling is a very layered thing and you can look at it many ways. I was just throwing in something new just for the fuck of it.
Guest Choken One Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 Ya but Duggan popped the crowd in the cheapest ways. What American crowd isn't going to get behind a USA chant? Now are we going to argue about what's the proper way of getting over and what isn't?
Guest Shanghai Kid Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 We'll save that argument for Sweeps week.
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 So I guess it's over then...... *begin deep thinking narrative while looking at the sun rise over the battlefield* and what did we gain? Well some lives were lost without meaning much like a Shawn Michaels match. But maybe we all came out a little stronger from it. We all learned something. Rudo learned a new definition for a good match. Shanghai learned that just because someone says they think a match is bad doesn't mean they are saying it's not entertaining. Choken One learned that some debates last forever. And Damaramu learned......well he learned nothing from this experience and will go to bed tonight in his Benoit Pajamas dreaming of 5-star workers living in a place where they are free to have 5-star matches without the persecution of the WWE style. *end narrative* LET'S PARTY!
Guest RavishingRickRudo Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 *Journeys "anyway you want it" plays* ALRIGHT!
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 Hey wait we've left it open for a sequel......becuase there is a new face on the battlefield. I sent a PM to Tim inviting him to this thread. He may be here in the morning when he awakens and finds it. THE BATTLE WILL BEGIN ANEW. AND SO THE CYCLE REPEATS ITSELF. ......may the force be with you Shanghai. I unfortunately wasn't signed to do the sequel. *eye of the tiger hits as Dama turns to the camera and the credits roll*
Guest creativename Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 This was the most ping-pongy thread I have ever seen. ...well, I'd suppose I'd better say something on topic, so here goes: Shawn Hickenbottom is a complete scumbag. He was also a very good wrestler, though formulaic. He was more on the spot wrestler side than worker/psychology side, though he did incorpate more psychology into his matches than your average wrestler. However a very important point that people overlook is that it is much easier to incorporate psychology into a match when you're given free reign over the booking. Make no mistake, his political power helped him have better matches than he ever could have otherwise. When a match is booked like a classic, it is far more likely to be a classic. What makes a match "good", or anything good, must be defined by the existence of a consensus opinion. If there is no consensus, then "good" and "bad" are subjective.
Guest NoSelfWorth Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 Shawn was spot addict bump machine, who sold well. As a wrestler, he was pretty poor.
Guest BionicRedneck Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 Shawn Michaels is the most overrated wrestler of all time.
Guest THE MIGHTY THOR Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 HBK was a great wrestler back in the late 90's but these cheap ass imitation that we see today makes me turn off my tv.His promos used to be interesting but now he doesn't make any sense like Steiner and his skills in the ring are ok for someone that wrestles every 2 or 3 months, the fact that he is being push as a top babyface even though he is a has-been, a ratings killer and not entertaining anymore shows me that this company will end up like WCW and AWA , dead.
Guest Tim Cooke Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 For you Shawn fans, go to Wrestling Classics message board (Yea, WC sucks but the good thread is there), go to the WON section and read JDW's post about Michaels and how he relates to someone like Nobuhiko Takada. Michaels smartest matches were when he was in against someone who was helping lay out the match. See the two ladder matches as an example of that and the Foley match. Michaels was a bumper. After that, he didn't have much. Michaels best work easily comes from the Rockers days as a tag team environment let him shine all of his *great* attributes (selling, bumping, highspots) while keeping his low points hidden. Here is a list of people who are BETTER workers than Michaels from the 1990's. Chris Benoit Eddy Guerrero Nobuhiko Takada Mitsuharu Misawa Toshiaki Kawada Kenta Kobashi Akira Taue (4/95-7/97) Kazuo Yamazaki Jushin Liger Shinjiro Otani Jumbo Tsuruta The list goes on and on. Shawn was good in his WWF environment, but in other envirnoments, would have failed miserably. Tim
Guest BionicRedneck Posted February 20, 2003 Report Posted February 20, 2003 I agree totally with Tim's post. People like Benoit and Guerrero smoke Shawn Michaels. Shawn wrestled the same WWF style his entire career, and that's a style which is not without it's flaws. Benoit and Guerrero have had great matches in every company they worked. Hell, if you want to compare Shawn against others in his environment, Bret Hart was always a better worker.
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