Brock defeats all of Team Angle

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

No, I'm pretty sure that if they had ME go out there and beat anyone with any kind of a reaction soundly, I'd be as over as Brock.

 

He really didn't have anything else going for him, especially early. he has a very generic character, his matches weren't very good (Especially in the beginning) and he can't cut a promo. That, if anything will be his downfall.

I can't see that happening, as most WWE fans don't take to cheering for giant tools who bitch and moan like a fuckin pussy.

 

Not cutting promos will be his downfall? Explain to me wizard, when will this downfall happen? Because he's improved by leaps and bounds since day one and shows no sign of slowing down.

[Guest Anglesault]

I can't see that happening, as most WWE fans don't take to cheering for giant tools who bitch and moan like a fuckin pussy.

 

As evidenced by Test.

 

Not cutting promos will be his downfall?

 

You honestly don't think promos are a requirement in the ME today?

 

Because he's improved by leaps and bounds since day one and shows no sign of slowing down.

 

Uhm, no. He's better than he was. he's not an unstoppable freight train of improvement. he still can't cut a promo, and he's still unable to produce consistenly good matches.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

1)Brocks bumping is relevant because it shows how dedicated he is to making other peoples offense look credible. He bumped through the bottom and middle ropes in the Unforgiven match vs. Taker because of a punch. He sold a big show clothesline like it was death. He leans into moves, he flips over the ropes like a man with a death wish.

 

2)But this is freaky strength. It's not boring batista strength, it's not "bend a spoon" Mark Henry strength. It is raw power. Fans see this, fans dig this. There are not very many wrestlers today that can do what Brock does in terms of brute strength. He is not an ordinary monster.

 

3)Walking through an airport - who do you think gets more attention, Eddie or Lesnar? Benoit or Lesnar? Angle or Lesnar? Size does matter to a point. Brock's body is distinctive - it captures your attention in an instant. This is a very good aspect.

 

4)I don't mean it as in "hey they can put lesnar to the mat and have him show his tech skills" - I mean it as in '2 time NCAA champ makes him legit' which is a step above what most monsters have in terms of credentials. Except, of course, for Nathan Jones. But he won't pay off in the ring like Lesnar has.

 

5)How often does he do the bearhug?

[Guest Brian]

Didn't you want RVD pushed?

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Brocks appeal to the fan isn't his promos - it's his ass-kicking nature. Infact, it's the 'less talk more throw' approach he has that the fans like.

[Guest Anglesault]

1)Brocks bumping is relevant because it shows how dedicated he is to making other peoples offense look credible.

 

Shouldn't that more or less be expected?

 

But this is freaky strength. It's not boring batista strength, it's not "bend a spoon" Mark Henry strength. It is raw power.

 

How does one categorize strength?

 

)Walking through an airport - who do you think gets more attention, Eddie or Lesnar? Benoit or Lesnar? Angle or Lesnar? Size does matter to a point. Brock's body is distinctive - it captures your attention in an instant. This is a very good aspect.

 

Still doesn't change the fact that he isn't exactly a scary looking man, like a monster should be. To tell you the truth Brock really has a non threatening, dorky gentle giant type of look.

 

4)I don't mean it as in "hey they can put lesnar to the mat and have him show his tech skills" - I mean it as in '2 time NCAA champ makes him legit' which is a step above what most monsters have in terms of credentials.

 

Really, though, when you have a gold medalist, who the fuck cares about an NCAA champ?

 

 

5)How often does he do the bearhug?

 

I was just singling out one aspect of his moveset like you did for whatever reason.

 

He's certainly better. Just not as good as you all claim he is.

 

Didn't you want RVD pushed?

 

I also said he has to improve his promos. You aren't always gonna be up again a guy who can carry the feud on the stick.

[Guest AndrewTS]

I agree with a lot of what AS is saying. I personally don't give two shits about Brock. His promos suck. His matches don't interest me--besides, you can predict the results of almost all of them accurately: a squash win for Brocky. He's totally blah in the ring and nearly every midcarder who was any sort of over was sacrificed to him.

 

He's over now, though.

 

Goldberg was similar--was a yawn as a heel but got over with the fans as a face. Both Goldie and Brock kinda suck, but they are over.

 

Hogan being a pretty crappy wrestler didn't stop Vince from pushing him, and he got massively over and drew tons of money.

 

The fact is, no matter what they HAD to do to get him over, it's been done. Brock is over. So they're just trying to use him in that way.

 

This fued isn't supposed to be intriguing because Angle and Brock are evenly matched. Oh no no. Instead, it's booked to make Brock look Godlike, and they want to see him triumph and win the title.

 

It's not what I want to see either, AS. However, the WWE doesn't give a shit. It's what they want to see, and since it seems marks are heavily behind Brock, they aren't going to change direction now just to placate us. Give it a rest--and don't watch if you don't want to.

[Guest Brian]

Good point, but at the same time good booking and wrestling should have the ability to cover some of those flaws. The real test will be after Mania if they still go with the planned Benoit/Lesnar feud.

[Guest Brian]

I still think if they crank things up, it can be salvaged. They blew a big chance here but if they move at the pay per view, it's the perfect turning point. At the same time, if they don't that's pretty much it since they've had two big chances that fit as transitions into the main body of the feud where the heel dominates, and if they blow a second chance that's really all they have left. The key to this feud is still that it's brain vs. power.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Good point, but at the same time good booking and wrestling should have the ability to cover some of those flaws. The real test will be after Mania if they still go with the planned Benoit/Lesnar feud.

 

"Good booking?" In WWE? Are you nuts?

 

Lesnar gets to look good by being in the ring with a superior worker, and Benoit jobs again when he gets his title shot.

 

Unless they book Benoit to win--yeah, right.

 

Wouldn't they have to turn Benoit heel for that, anyway?

[Guest Brian]

I think when Angle turns, they'll need a heel. And they have been planning to give Benoit the slot after Mania (which is why this worked out so much better when they had the heel/face rolls flipped).

[Guest AndrewTS]

Since when is Angle going to turn? Is he suddenly going to go face after Brock beats him?

 

Is he then not even going to be persuing a rematch for the title?

[Guest Anglesault]

I still think if they crank things up, it can be salvaged. They blew a big chance here but if they move at the pay per view, it's the perfect turning point. At the same time, if they don't that's pretty much it since they've had two big chances that fit as transitions into the main body of the feud where the heel dominates, and if they blow a second chance that's really all they have left. The key to this feud is still that it's brain vs. power.

No Way Out is it. If Brock leaves that building on his own two feet, everything else is too little too late.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

1)Brock goes an extra distance in his bumping. It's really something to behold IMO - because you just don't see that kind of bumping everyday, outside cruiserweights getting squashed.

 

2)By feats of strength, I suppose. I keep going back to Brocks match with Booker T in the Spring where Booker went for a jumping sidekick, Brock caught him in an awkward position and looked like he was going to set booker down so he could restart the move, but rather than that, he used pure strength to continue to lift booker up and slam him to the mat (not sloppily either). That impressed the hell out of me.

 

3)Well the fans seem to buy it. So...

 

4)a)It sets up a natural rivalry with said olympic champion.

b)Still worthy enough credentials given that 'best in america' to americans translates to 'best in the world'.

 

5)I 'singled out' the B2B simply because LaParka did. He said that Lesnars offense consisted of mainly B2B suplexes and compared him to steiner. I just said Lesnar has really nice suplexes. If he did them poorly and if they didn't get a reaction from the crowd then I could see why one would complain, but they aren't and they don't - so what's the use in discounting him for it? Besides, the B2B is a key offensive move of Kurt Angle, it adds another element to the feud.

 

How 'good' do I 'claim he is'? I said he bumps really well, has freaky strength, a distinctive look, his moves are over, and that he has a legit background to give him credibility.

[Guest Brian]

Yep, No Way Out is basically it.

 

Angle's more than likely turning face after Mania. I'm assuming they'll either immediately push for it, or have another month of feud but run it similar to the Rocky/Corporation break-up, with Rhyno (or whomever) in the HHH roll. Basically once the title's gone, all the sacrifices and Heyman building everything around him wasn't worth it. I'm guessing they'll go this way because they've been teasing the face turn for a long time and Heyman will want to keep himself involved in the storylines while pushing one of his boys up the ladder.

 

The re-match will come down the line when Brock's been established as unbeatable and Angle's the one to finally take him down. Where they were supposed to go with Rock/Austin.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Smackdown did a lot of things to further the storyline.

 

In the Benjamin/Brock match Brock was working on the arm to prevent the F5, it didnt work (he won with an olympic slam, but still managed to power out of the arm bars). This is quality storytelling/psychology - because it shows that they have to work on another part of the body - the ankle. Which they did at the end. This accomplished 3 key things:

 

1)It showed that Kurt can get Brock in the Ankle Lock.

 

2)It showed that the ankle lock hurts Brocks.

 

3)It showed that team angle is focusing on a body part.

 

All very good things to build off of.

[Guest Anglesault]

4)a)It sets up a natural rivalry with said olympic champion.

I don't know. When you have something as cut and dried as this, it's really a kind of stupid rivalry. An Olympic Gold Medalist is clearly better than an NCAA champ. What is there to fight over? I have a hard time getting into storylines that don't make sense.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Here's what I wouldn't mind seeing.

 

Rhyno comes out (no way out, the smackdown after, whenever) and gores Brock, Benoit and Edge. He takes edge out with a piledriver - breaks his neck and whatnot. Edge is out for surgery. (sets up a Rhyno/Edge feud upon his return...battle of the spears!)

 

He takes Benoit out of action for a few weeks - this sets up a Benoit/Rhyno feud. This is good for a variety of reasons. 1)Benoit has offered to give Rhyno some help recovering from the surgery and the 'ring pains' (for lack of a better term) - so having them feud would be a great way of getting rhyno back into the fold. 2)Rhyno vs. Benoit could produce some really good matches. 3)Rhyno with Heyman as a mouthpiece = Good. Rhyno could also take out Brocks ankle or help team angle with it - this could set up a brock/rhyno feud in the post-wm days.

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

4)a)It sets up a natural rivalry with said olympic champion.

I don't know. When you have something as cut and dried as this, it's really a kind of stupid rivalry. An Olympic Gold Medalist is clearly better than an NCAA champ. What is there to fight over? I have a hard time getting into storylines that don't make sense.

Well, master of amateur wrestling, please elaborate to me on why an Olympic Champ is clearly better then a NCAA Champ. Until Lesnar tries out for the Olympics in freestyle and bombs, I'll wait and see. Until then, don't open your fucking mouth until you have something relevant to point out.

 

Wait.......if that was true you'd never troll this forum to death so never mind.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I don't know. When you have something as cut and dried as this, it's really a kind of stupid rivalry. An Olympic Gold Medalist is clearly better than an NCAA champ. What is there to fight over? I have a hard time getting into storylines that don't make sense.

 

Here's the thing: Brock never had the chance to try out for the olympics - he opted for a WWF contract instead. So it doesn't necessarily mean he isn't olympic calibre. He has the same Collegic credentials as Angle so who is to say he couldnt have the same olympic? This is the question that could be asked - and they would wrestle to see who is the better man.

[Guest Anglesault]

2)It showed that the ankle lock hurts Brocks.

Could have been done better.

 

Well, master of amateur wrestling, please elaborate to me on why an Olympic Champ is clearly better then a NCAA Champ

 

Which is more prestigious in the minds of the people? If you were to pole the average Joe Schmoe of the street who isn't overly familiar with amateur wrestling, and were to ask which one they think is more important, how would they answer?

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Could have been done better.

 

It was done just fine. He didn't cry about it, but it was made known that it effected him. That he may have a weakness to exploit. That he could have tapped to the ankle lock.

[Guest Anglesault]

So it doesn't necessarily mean he isn't olympic calibre.

Doesn't mean he is. That would just be assuming that he could make the Olympics and win the gold medal. It's something that's been proven over "woulda, shoulda, coulda."

[Guest Anglesault]

Could have been done better.

 

That he may have a weakness to exploit. That he could have tapped to the ankle lock.

I never got that impression. He layed there in the ankle lock for a decent amount of time and then walked it off.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Which is the cause for the match.

 

Angle: Hey Brock, I am a better wrestler than you. Look at deez babahz!

 

*kisses gold*

 

Brock: Well Kurt, I could have tried out for the olympics but the WWE made me a better offer... a big money contract, and a chance to take out the olympic champ Kurt Angle. How could I resist?

 

Angle: You sonnofabitch, you've got nothin on me, I did what you did and more. You're nothin but a punk-ass rookie and I am goin to show you who's the man.

 

Brock: Aight Kurt, bring it.

 

Kurt: No, YOU bring it to ME. I'm the champ biatches.

 

...and so forth.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

He was getting up while the show ended and was limping. They didn't break his ankle but what they did is a lil somethin called foreshadowing.

[Guest Anglesault]

I guess it could work. There's just something about that "i could have but I didn't" that makes this whole thing seem stupid to me. I strikes me as very heelish (not even strong heel, like Matt hardy heel) and make him look like some kind of haughty pretender claiming that he can do something without proving himself.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

If you had two Brock Lesnars, one an NCAA Champ and another one who was an Olypmic Gold Medalist, I'd expect the medalist one to win.

 

But you're talking about a young and hungry guy with good amateur cred and freakish acts of strength vs a wrestling Hall of Famer who's clearly older but certainly not slower.

 

Forget about HHH, Angle is The New Ric Flair. The story sets itself up fine and Angle's skill plus Lesnar's "DAMN, did he just stiff the hell out of that guy or what?" style should blend just fine.

 

 

 

Just as long as we don't get any public announcements by Karen Angle about what a sloppy worker Lesnar is.

[Guest Brian]

There should also be some natural setting of youth vs. experience.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

My only complaint about that is the fact that Angle isn't exactly an "old timer" in the WWE yet.

 

Brock gets a good reaction, but I don't know if it's an Austin/Rock reaction (where the fans REALLY want to cheer the guy..), or more of an HHH-style reaction (Where he's pushed and pushed and pushed 'til the fans like him). He did get cheered over Rocky, yeah..but I think that's more relying on the fact the hicks thought he'd "sold out". Now he's the guy who beats people up.

 

Seems to me that it's more of the usual WWE style "small, intelligent guy" gets beaten by the "big tough guy" storyline than the amateur/amateur wrestler SL everybody around here sees. I haven't seen much of their backgrounds being a factor, except in the Tale of the Tape things they ripped off.

 

It's gonna take time, and a program with someone who isn't able to carry Brock..(Rock did verbally, Heyman did verbally, Angle is ringwise) to see if he's really as over as he seems.