Brock defeats all of Team Angle

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

I agree to a point.  However, Brock has impressive strength and fills the role of the ass kicker quite well.  Had Bill Demott been give Brocks push, he wouldn't have nearly been as successful.

According to live reports, DeMott gets pops to the ring at house shows and Velocity tapings. At least he can say that he got the reactions while unpushed, unlike Brock, who needed Hogan, Rock, Taker and many midcarders fed to him before he got it. We wouldn't be having this discussion if there was SOME hints along the way that Brock truly was "the People's Champion" BEFORE getting pushed to the moon. That's what I'm trying to say. If his imposing look was so great, then how come it took so long for it to catch on? Disputing his overness today (aside from certain people overstating it) is a moot point. Where and how we got there is what I'm hung up on.

[NYU 0]

Disputing his overness today (aside from certain people overstating it) is a moot point. Where and how we got there is what I'm hung up on.

The HIAC match with Taker after No Mercy was the turning point. After the Hell-in-a-Cell match, Brock became REALLY over. Before that, besides SummerSlam, he got absolutely nothing. His music would come on, and the crowd would go mild. Once he went over Taker, the crowd really began to pop for him. Yet, before this, we went through...what, 6 months of Brock running rampant over WWE without a single loss ? The man is over, yes, but the man is over BECAUSE of his push. Like I said, if he debuted with Shelton Benjamin as the Minnesota Wrecking Crew, he would probably be in the midcard today with just a decent reaction. His push, and his destruction of every wrestler, is what got the fans' support - much like the case with Goldberg.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

If it had been anyone else the push would have been aborted along the way. WWE had big plans for Lesnar the moment they signed him, and unlike with everything else, they were not going to relent on him. This is indisputable.

 

HIAC was a start, but I also think that the following Smackdown where Taker gave Brock his 'respect', as well as the start of the Big Show feud (after Show took out Taker to give him heat) really got the ball rolling.

[Guest Army Eye]

According to live reports, DeMott gets pops to the ring at house shows and Velocity tapings. At least he can say that he got the reactions while unpushed, unlike Brock, who needed Hogan, Rock, Taker and many midcarders fed to him before he got it. We wouldn't be having this discussion if there was SOME hints along the way that Brock truly was "the People's Champion" BEFORE getting pushed to the moon. That's what I'm trying to say. If his imposing look was so great, then how come it took so long for it to catch on? Disputing his overness today (aside from certain people overstating it) is a moot point. Where and how we got there is what I'm hung up on.

In Brock's defense, I think he would've had pops from the beginning if they had just pushed him as a babyface. He was just not cut out to be a heel. He showed no ability to draw heel heat, but he was new, he had really impressive power moves, I see no reason he couldn't been a face the whole time. In fact I have a feeling he would've started getting pops well before his face turn regardless, if not for being paired up with Heyman, a very strong heel.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

Having a feeling is all fine and dandy but it doesn't hold a lot of water. It's just speculation.

 

I just want SOME indication that fans were taking to him before the great sacrifices to the Altar of Brock (thus, before August of last year). Only then can I begin to believe that Brock is anywhere worthy enough for the "People's champ" moniker and that there's a connection between him and the fans aside from "Me watch Brock smash".

[Guest Army Eye]

Oh, heh I agree he's definitely not a 'People's Champ' and there's no special connetion between him and the fans. I think he could've got decent pops instead of months of silence, but nothing spectacular.

 

You need some kind of charisma to get to that next level and he doesn't really have it. Goldberg, having no mic skills like Brock, got over huuuuuuuuuuge anyway because of an amazing ring presence, intensity, charisma, and he has a more intimidating look than Brock.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

1. It is useless to speculate on what if Brock didn't get the push he did, because he did get the push, get over it. The question is about the feud at hand.

 

2. Brock is building a connection, the same one any main event performer builds. I think the fans like him because WWE fans love to respond to WWE-made main eventers.

 

3. Goldberg and Brock? Pfft. Some people seem to forgot it took months of canned pops just to get people to react to him. Brock got a reaction in four months (after killing Hulkamania) and they only needed to job one has-been to him. WOW, look at how much they sacrificed!

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

Brock is building a connection, the same one any main event performer builds.

Then he isn't as special as you make him out to be.

 

I think the fans like him because WWE fans love to respond to WWE-made main eventers.

 

Do you honestly think they care? Do you have anything to back this up besides more "I think" statements?

[Guest Anglesault]

Brock got a reaction in four months (after killing Hulkamania)

 

Now we both know that's a lie. That's why everyone was so shocked at the reaction at Summerslam. Not just because it was a face reaction, but because it was his first. Nothing until September, nothing good until October. Pretty pathetic if you ask me. But, that's over and done with.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Urr? Brock was getting reactions over the summer, just nothing strong enough to register on TV.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Brock is building a connection, the same one any main event performer builds.

Then he isn't as special as you make him out to be.

 

I think the fans like him because WWE fans love to respond to WWE-made main eventers.

 

Do you honestly think they care? Do you have anything to back this up besides more "I think" statements?

1. Yes he is when you consider he's the first real main event star created by the Brand Extension. It's also pretty special when you consider just how amazingly over he is, and how popular he'll be when he finally evens out as far as overness goes.

 

2. Yeah, yeah they do. Taker was universally cheered from 94-98 just because he stayed loyal. (Austin was BOOED for stunning him at A COLD DAY IN HELL) Oh and criticizing my arguments is pretty laughable coming from a guy who was trying to derail Brock based on his crowd reaction HALF A YEAR AGO.

[Guest Anglesault]

Urr? Brock was getting reactions over the summer, just nothing strong enough to register on TV.

Oh. Well sorry then. I was pretty sure that that was what mattered. The absolute low point I'd have to say was KotR to about a week or two before Summerslam, when it was kind of sad how little the fans cared.

 

And why are we even debating this? It's over. Brock finally got over somehow. Sure it took longer for him then it would nearly anyone else, but it happened.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

And who cared about Goldberg in his first 4 months with the company? It's called 'build' and it obviously has paid off. They had Brock do the regular stuff - beat up Spike, beat up the Hardyz, beat up RVD - you know, the Austin/Undertaker heel-stuff that doesn't generally work. But it allowed Brock to get his foot in the door and establish his power and moves (particularly the F5). That investment paid off when Brock beat Hogan, Rock and Taker.

 

And he really got over on F5-ing the Big Show.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

Yes he is when you consider he's the first real main event star created by the Brand Extension.

Almost a year into it. Excuse me while I break out the bubbly. Took too long if you ask me.

 

It's also pretty special when you consider just how amazingly over he is, and how popular he'll be when he finally evens out as far as overness goes.

 

Why should I consider it? I can tell right now that his reactions will be overstated by his marks and understated by his detractors. It's an exercise in futility.

 

Yeah, yeah they do. Taker was universally cheered from 94-98 just because he stayed loyal.

 

And here I am thinking it was the gimmick. If WWF/E fans were hung up on loyalty Austin would not have become as popular as he did, and they wouldn't anticipate his return so badly.

 

Oh and criticizing my arguments is pretty laughable coming from a guy who was trying to derail Brock based on his crowd reaction HALF A YEAR AGO.

 

Back your stuff up without exaggerating or using vague speculation, then.

 

As RRR said in NHB, Lesnar is Lesnar. Fine. I have no problems with that. I just don't buy him as a focal point of the company and everyone getting destroyed directly or by proxy for that to happen. That's just my opinion. It's kind of like bps's disdain for Edge - he doesn't agree with what WWE portrays him as. I guess it goes the same with me and what I think about Brock. I don't have to agree with everything WWE does, but I can talk about it.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Yes he is when you consider he's the first real main event star created by the Brand Extension.

Almost a year into it. Excuse me while I break out the bubbly. Took too long if you ask me.

 

It's also pretty special when you consider just how amazingly over he is, and how popular he'll be when he finally evens out as far as overness goes.

 

Why should I consider it? I can tell right now that his reactions will be overstated by his marks and understated by his detractors. It's an exercise in futility.

 

Yeah, yeah they do. Taker was universally cheered from 94-98 just because he stayed loyal.

 

And here I am thinking it was the gimmick. If WWF/E fans were hung up on loyalty Austin would not have become as popular as he did, and they wouldn't anticipate his return so badly.

 

Oh and criticizing my arguments is pretty laughable coming from a guy who was trying to derail Brock based on his crowd reaction HALF A YEAR AGO.

 

Back your stuff up without exaggerating or using vague speculation, then.

 

As RRR said in NHB, Lesnar is Lesnar. Fine. I have no problems with that. I just don't buy him as a focal point of the company and everyone getting destroyed directly or by proxy for that to happen. That's just my opinion. It's kind of like bps's disdain for Edge - he doesn't agree with what WWE portrays him as. I guess it goes the same with me and what I think about Brock. I don't have to agree with everything WWE does, but I can talk about it.

1. That's not exactly Brock's fault...

 

2. Agreed.

 

3. 90-93 was just the gimmick, but you'd be a fool to think that familiarity with the character due to his long stay didn't play into it after that.

 

4. That's fine. Even *I* think he's protrayed as too superhuman. But I think decrying a push that was old news months ago is anything more than an useless gesture of internet bitterness,

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

I'm not decrying the push as much as I'm saying that it played a large factor in his current popularity. Like I said, the fans cheer hard for the strong.

 

I guess I'm just odd that way but wrestlers that act too superhuman don't appeal to me as much as they should. It happened with Austin in 1998-1999, Angle in 2001 and Lesnar today. I suppose I like the sympathetic faces more. Faces that never lose face get boring.

 

Thanks for recognizing that I don't like futile arguments. Hence me never getting into an HHH dispute.

[NYU 0]

I just have a problem with you referring to Brock as the next People's Champion. We have seen no evidence that the fans really will continue to cheer this guy even if he becomes a heel soon. People cheered Brock because of how powerful he got. Once you steamroll over everyone in the company, you'll usually get the fans behind you. But I really see no evidence that, once Brock becomes a normal human again, the fans will just continue to go crazy. Brock's interviews are average, or perhaps even below average. His wrestling is pretty good for a big guy like him, but nothing extraordinary. The fans cheer him because he IS the guy to cheer right now, but is he still going to be so wildly over a year from now ? I just don't see it. Brock is the #1 face on Smackdown, excluding Hogan, there's no disputing that. But I still disagree that he's the People's Choice and the fans will follow him to the end of the earth. The fans cheering RVD and Booker, even in their depush, is pretty remarkable. But will the same thing happen to Brock ? Only time will tell, but I personally doubt it.

[Guest Anglesault]

Brock's interviews are average, or perhaps even below average

I'd like to remind everyone that they are way below average, bordering on terrible.

 

Okay, I'm done.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Brock's interviews are average, or perhaps even below average

I'd like to remind everyone that they are way below average, bordering on terrible.

 

Okay, I'm done.

Anglesault is being somewhat generous in my opinion. Keep in mind also that Brock has never cut a promo in the ring longer than a couple sentences, and even then his delivery sucked.

[Guest The Hamburglar]

Wow. Let me get this straight, right?

Beating the Hardyz, having to have your fat manager cheat for you to beat RVD, being treated like a bitch by Taker for a month and a half and losing your title belt to the fucking BIG SHOW = MEGAPUSH~!

 

Yay, Brock got to beat two worthless clapped-out pieces of shite and a guy who was leaving anyway. What a mighty push, I'm staggered. And yes, MrZsasz, it is incredibly fun to see Brock annhilate all and sundry, just as it is to see him do homicidal bumps for any of his opponents. I have greater confidence in Angle's ability to stay over and remain important, far more it seems than his so-called fans.

[Guest Anglesault]

Wow. Let me get this straight, right?

Beating the Hardyz, having to have your fat manager cheat for you to beat RVD, being treated like a bitch by Taker for a month and a half and losing your title belt to the fucking BIG SHOW = MEGAPUSH~!

Yeah, beating the whole roster usually defines "Megapush."

 

By the way, Heyman's cheating never beat RVD. Brock took him out clean at KotR (And by clean I mean the minimul Heymanference not only had no effect of the finish, but helped RVD.)

 

And he beat the Undertaker clean in hell in a Cell. Let's go over the list of people who have done that.

 

1. Brock.

 

Oh look.

 

Yes, it's stupid to even bring up that it took him almost eight months to get over and that it took ALOT. He's over, it's done, who cares. But don't even TRY to say that the guy didn't get the megapush over the whole roster.

 

I have greater confidence in Angle's ability to stay over and remain important, far more it seems than his so-called fans.

 

Every time he's booked as a loser, he goes straight back to the midcard.What is your confindence based on?