Greatest wrestler in thje '90s?

[FigureFourTapes 0]

A friend of mine and I were discussing who was the best wrestler in Japan in the 1990s. I went with my personal favorite of Misawa. He said Kawada. Who do you guys think was the best?

[Guest Daddy X]

Misawa certainly saw the most success in Japan during the 90s but I would give the nod to Kawada. I think Kawada's intensity is what makes him the best. I've never seen a match where Kawada hasn't been at 110% the whole way just giving it all he has and drawing you in. However there may be some bias here as Kawada is one of my favorite all time workers and i tend to kiss his ass on a regular basis. But i will say that both Misawa and Kawada are great and I can't argue with either for the best wrestler of the 90s.

[Guest wolverine]

As a peak performer, I saw nobody better than Akira Hokuto. But what works against her is the longevity factor. So I'd have to give the nod to Kawada, since he was at or near the top in terms of work for nearly the entire decade, as well as putting on some of the greatest individual performances I've ever seen. At his best, he was also perhaps the greatest storyteller in history as well. Liger and Misawa would round out my Top 3.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I know I might get some heat for this but Kobashi gets my vote. Overall, I like his work the best. Fantastic workrate which is my number one ingredient overall in enjoying a match. I really don't think his selling is that goofy so he gets the overall vote in my book.

Jushin Liger: I really like Benoit, but since he wasn't there for the entire 90's I'm going with Yamada. From the end of his feud with Sano to his matches with Benoit, Samurai, Eddy, Sasuke, and Otani this guy's a wrestling matchine.If he had the advantage of working longer matches like the All Japan main eventers I think his name would be even held in higher esteem by puroresu watchers.

Hokuto: It's true that Hokuto didn't have the longevity of the other legendary puroresu wrestlers but her work was undobutably top notch. I don't know if I can honestly say if I've ever seen a better match than her famous Dreamslam match against Kandori. I also really liked her work with Bull Nakono and Toyota.

Toyota: I think Toyota is also one of the best wrestlers of the 90's due to workrate. So many times I've been dumbfounded at her pure energy level. When other people would be votiming she keeps on going.

I'd like to give an honourable mentions to Kawada, Misawa and Aja Kong. Kawada, in particular keeps on going higher in my books.

[Guest NoSelfWorth]

Kenta Koabshi. The guy was just awesome at everything. He was incredible in the 90's. My favorite Japanese wrestler of all time.

[Guest Black Tiger]

I'd have to go with Kawada. I cannot think of any AJPW 1990's match that I've seen where he isn't working his ass off and making his opponent look good.

 

Compare Misawa vs. Akiyama from CC 1995 to Kawada vs. Akiyama from CC 1995. Kawada was selling like a crazy for Akiyama and was giving him 2 1/2 to 2 3/4 counts on Exploders and Blue Thunder. Misawa on the other hand, gave his offense no respect and made him look like shit.

 

IMO its reasons like that that make Dangerous K better, even though he wasn't in as many great matches as Misawa was.

 

Add Misawa, Kobashi, Lyger, and Ohtani to round out my top five.

[Guest wildpegasus]

To me Kobashi represents "fighting spirit" the best. I remember reading fairly rescently about how he couldn't sleep the night before his return match from injury because he was so nervous about preforming well. The Dynamite Kid also puts over Kobashi in his book by saying he was the one wrestler that really stood out to him. He was always training and watching. I liked the story how when Dynamite told Kobashi that he was good enough to beat him. Kobashi looked at Dynamite like he was crazy and said something along the likes of "Oh, no, no, no, I beat Dynamite, the people will cry" This just shows how much respect he has for wrestling.

 

A little off track here, but did anyone see Kobashi doing his neck exercises before his 1/20/97 bout with Misawa? Kobashi was laying on his side and he has someone standing on the side of his head. Kobashi then proceeded to move his neck up and down!! I don't know if I ever marked out for anything more in my life.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Kawada or Lyger, too hard to choose out of those two for me. The reasons have already been explained by too many people too many times for me to bother doing it again.

 

It's NOT Misawa though, I know he's probably been in more great matches than anyone else in history, but from what I've seen (a fair amount by now), he lacks the ability to carry people, and it's been his opponents more than him that have created the massive amounts of great matches he's been a part of. I don't think I'll ever understand why Baba pushed him over Kawada.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Kawada or Lyger, too hard to choose out of those two for me. The reasons have already been explained by too many people too many times for me to bother doing it again.

 

Agreed. Benoit would be third in my book.

[Guest XdojimeX]

"It's NOT Misawa though, I know he's probably been in more great matches than anyone else in history, but from what I've seen (a fair amount by now), he lacks the ability to carry people, and it's been his opponents more than him that have created the massive amounts of great matches he's been a part of. I don't think I'll ever understand why Baba pushed him over Kawada."

 

Eh, I'm starting to think Misawa's career has become somewhat underated in a lot of circles. The main knocks against him are fair (hasn't aged or adapted as gracefully as his predecessors, namely Jumbo. Hasn't "made" anyone. Broken down and formulaic in this last stage of his run). But nobody took to the role of Ace in their respective promotion better than Mitsuharu during this era. Say what you want about strong booking and great foils, it takes a certain something to have the fans embrace you as "The Man". Especially an audience like AJ's in its heyday. And he did it at a higher level than anyone, with a staggering body of work left in his wake. To incline that he was carried to his best matches is woefully selling the man short. He's one of the greatest big match performers we'll ever see. Kawada and Kobashi we're better overall workers, but to be honest I couldn't see either one of them filling Jumbo's shoes the way Misawa did. Baba picked the right guy.

 

I wouldn't call him wrestler of the decade either, but its plenty arguable.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Well maybe, but on the evidence I've seen, Kawada would have been taken by the fans even more than Misawa was if he had received the push that Misawa did. I'm basing this mainly on the 45 minute draw tag match from 'Baba-san, Arigoto' with Misawa & Kawada against Jumbo & Taue. It's a fucking stonking match, but a lot of the key sequences are not done by Misawa, much to my surprise, but by Kawada instead, and the fans respond to Kawada a lot more as well. I think the problem with Misawa is his lack of emotion and lack of obvious passion in what he's doing. He's just too stoic to be the perfect ace, and Kawada's emotion could have endeared him to the crowd a lot more, I think.

 

Obviously, Misawa was successful as an ace, but I believe that Kawada could have been more so.

[Guest Black Tiger]

Kawada always had more fan support than Misawa, because he was always looked at as the underdog, until Misawa vs. Kawada. First he was Tenryu's #3 or #4, then he got moved up to #2. Then after Tenryu left, he was #2 for Misawa. Then he FINALLY gets a top spot with Misawa vs. Kawada.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Misawa showed little emotion because that was his persona, he was supposed to be cool and confident. It wouldn't make sense for someone groomed to be the man to start crying like Kobashi if he couldn't pin somebody or be a total bastard like Kawada.

 

I don't think Misawa was better than Kawada, but overall he was better than Kobashi. He may not have been as dramatic or emotional but he was a VERY smart worker during his in ring prime. See the end of the 95 Carnies Finals against Taue, that has got to be one of the smartest and most credible big comebacks in history. Misawa did one hell of a job of putting over Taue's offense, while very slowly mounting a comeback that took many counters and elbows to complete.

 

I think Misawa as "The Man" and Kawada as #2 was great booking. Kawada could play any role well, but "The Man" was the role that Misawa was born to play.

 

However Kawada as "The Man" would have been interesting see 7/93 vs. Akiyama where he works his version of Jumbo vs. young rising star.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

I take your point, Coffin, but I'd like someone to suggest what qualities someone who is 'born to be "The Man"' possesses that makes him 'born to be "The Man"'.

 

I haven't seen enough 90's AJPW yet to form a counter argument in favour of Kawada, but I will, and I'm sure i'll get back to you all when I have.

 

However, and I'm basically thinking out loud here, there is a need for a strong figure, like Jumbo, for the foils to play off I guess. It'd be no good having everyone equal, there'd be nothing to strive for, no goals to accomplish. Although Kawada was the superior worker, and a man the fans could get behind and love, Misawa needed to be strong, confident, and by extension, stoic, in order to create a pinnicle for others to strive for. Yes, now I understand the use of aces in wrestling, and why Misawa was pushed. Thanks guys, I've learned something today.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

I take your point, Coffin, but I'd like someone to suggest what qualities someone who is 'born to be "The Man"' possesses that makes him 'born to be "The Man"'.

You pretty much answered the question towards the end of your post there. It was a role that perfectly fitted his in ring persona and strengths, such as his cool, in control, confident attitude that he always showed. Baba had actually groomed him for the role for quite some time.

 

Kawada on the other hand relished in his underdog role, developing his dramatic selling and bitter attitude. Though Kawada could have easily played "The Man" as well.

[Guest XdojimeX]

Coffin basically said what I wanted to say a lot clearer than I did so instead of just c & p'ing everything I'll just ask Plat one question...

 

What in the blue hell does Stonking mean?! I thought I had all my wacky brit slang covered but this one must have got away.

[Guest XdojimeX]

I should ammend that Kobashi better worker bit. I was considering a "night in-night out" basis for their careers. Pound for pound Id give Kobash the nod. Post 93 though I'd agree Misawa was the superior performer at their best.

 

BTW Kawada vs. Jumbo was also my favorite matchup in all those great tag combos in the early 90's. Misawa vs. J was the foundation and Kobashi and Kikuchi were the greatest Ricky Morton's known to man. But Kawada as the shit talking bad ass babyface fearlessly taking it to Mighty Jumbo was the stuff. The double lariat "Way too much Jumbo for you" spot is a classic.

[Guest wolverine]

Someone who hasn't been mentioned yet, but certainly deserves recognition, is Volk Han. Now, I'm still going through my RINGS footage, but from what I can tell, his pure grace and technique on the mat would have to rank as the greatest I've ever seen. He carried countless slugs and nobodies to their best matches, and when he was paired with someone the calibre of Kiyoshi Tamura, they tore it up to a degree that hadn't been seen before. That motherfucker rules.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Han is indeed right up there with Takada and Kawada in terms of carrying slugs to awesome matches.

 

Wrestler of the 90's? Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Takada would all be above him for me personally.

 

But it is kind of a stupid thing to look at because while the AJ3 were wrestling deep psychological pro wrestling matches, Han was working a totally different style that I don't think Kawada could have even adapted to at such a level. Likewise, Han in an AJ90's setting doesn't look like he would tear things up.

 

------------------------

 

On the Misawa as the man subject...

 

Watch Misawa's 5/21/93 match with Hanson for the Triple Crown. Hanson, who is still kicking ass and taking names, has no answers to Misawa's questions and further solidifies Misawa as the man. After that, Misawa took it in his own hands and made sure to look strong while usually doing a decent job of making his opponent look good.

 

Kawada *could*, *should* have been the man at some point, but never happened.

 

That 7/93 example of Kawada v Akiyama is a good one relating to how good he could have been in that role.

 

Watch Otani in 1996 to see that growing babyface who rocks. He should be the MAN now. But he never learned how to play that role.

 

Tim

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Coffin, this ones for you.

 

The mighty lineage of the marvellous word 'stonking' goes back to a particular Formula 1 racing commentator, who used to the term only in very special occasions to describe something particularly amazing. When playing snooker with my mates down my local, I inadvertantly slipped the word into conversation after a particularly stunning shot which possessed both great speed and accuracy. My F1 obsessed friends at once jumped on my use of the word, and celebrated it with much woops of joy. Since then the word has been used by me to describe something particularly great, but also something that achieves that greatness with speed and style.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I don't agree with most of the posts here that say Kawada was superior to Misawa. I feel that while Kawada had the ability to "sell" a match better in terms of facial expression and mobility, Misawa was the superior worker. He's just so well-suited to the AJPW style, it's frightening. He also has a legendary air about him that gives his "No-Sell the Strike" spots a bit more "cool".

 

Lyger's my number 2 for personal reasons.

[Guest wolverine]

What's the point of the superfluous quotes? Do they "really" help you "prove" your "point" that much "better?"

 

Also, how do you explain the difference in match quality between the 10/95 Kawada/Albright and 3/96 Misawa/Albright? If Misawa was the superior worker, then certainly he would've been able to have a better match with Gary, right?

[Guest XdojimeX]

Thanks for the knowledge Platypus. I kinda find it baffling that most Brit slang sounds like it should be some derivitive of taking a shit to American ears. Or maybe it's just me. I mean...snogging? C'mon.

 

MrZ said-

"I don't agree with most of the posts here that say Kawada was superior to Misawa. I feel that while Kawada had the ability to "sell" a match better in terms of facial expression and mobility, Misawa was the superior worker."

 

The better athlete sure, as far as moveset/execution and bumping goes. But as a ring-psychologist? Nah. Kawada was in a league of his own.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

MrZ, the AJPW style was the style it was because of the workers involved. Styles aren't forced on wrestlers, they're determined by them. Therefore, the reason Misawa suited the AJPW style so well is because he played a massive part in creating it. He was 'The Man' after all.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

What's the point of the superfluous quotes? Do they "really" help you "prove" your "point" that much "better?"

 

Also, how do you explain the difference in match quality between the 10/95 Kawada/Albright and 3/96 Misawa/Albright? If Misawa was the superior worker, then certainly he would've been able to have a better match with Gary, right?

Upon looking back at my post there was nothing superfluous about it. Although, you're going to try to find something wrong with it no matter what, so slag off.

 

As for your comment: Some workers mesh better. Diesel had a better match with Undertaker at WrestleMania XII then with workers far more talented then Calloway. I'd say there are many, many, more factors to how two workers can perform together on a given night then simple in-ring ability, to disagree is simple short-sightedness.

[Guest wolverine]

Watch the matches. Educate yourself to the style. Then maybe you can contribute better analogies in this folder than some Kevin Nash or Mark Calloway crap.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Watch the matches.  Educate yourself to the style.  Then maybe you can contribute better analogies in this folder than some Kevin Nash or Mark Calloway crap.

I used Calloway/Nash as an example, and one that you didn't, or couldn't refute. I've noticed something about you wolverine: When confronted with a line of questioning you can't easily rebuke you fold and begin making sarcastic comments in an effort to save face.

 

Either argue the point, or take it to NHB. I don't give a damn which, but you better hurry up.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

As for your comment: Some workers mesh better. Diesel had a better match with Undertaker at WrestleMania XII then with workers far more talented then Calloway. I'd say there are many, many, more factors to how two workers can perform together on a given night then simple in-ring ability, to disagree is simple short-sightedness.

Than how do you explain Kawada having better matches with not only Albright, but Hansen, Akiyama, Williams....etc. Not to mention out shining all the big four in tag matches like 12/3/93.

 

And though not as historically important, Kawada actually worked better matches with Jumbo and Kobashi than Misawa did. I'm sorry but I'd take Kobashi/Kawada 4/93 over Misawa/Kobashi 1/97 anyday.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

As for your comment: Some workers mesh better. Diesel had a better match with Undertaker at WrestleMania XII then with workers far more talented then Calloway. I'd say there are many, many, more factors to how two workers can perform together on a given night then simple in-ring ability, to disagree is simple short-sightedness.

Than how do you explain Kawada having better matches with not only Albright, but Hansen, Akiyama, Williams....etc. Not to mention out shining all the big four in tag matches like 12/3/93.

 

And though not as historically important, Kawada actually worked better matches with Jumbo and Kobashi than Misawa did. I'm sorry but I'd take Kobashi/Kawada 4/93 over Misawa/Kobashi 1/97 anyday.

Look at the dates on the matches against Kobashi. 93 was a year Kawada had something to prove, which is why he busted his ass in those tag matches. I think Misawa peaked as a worker a bit earlier than 97, if you take Kawada and Misawa IN THEIR PRIMES. I'd personally take Misawa.

 

 

Keep in mind that this thread is a matter of opinion, I've never liked Kawada as much as Misawa because he seems to use the "Sell the move after a lairiat" spot a lot more than Misawa and I've always hated that spot.

[Guest wolverine]

Although my initial question was rhetorical in nature, you still haven't addressed it whatsoever....

 

Talk about the difference in match quality between Kawada/Albright and Misawa/Albright. It's very clear once you have some sort of grasp on what you're watching, that Kawada was more versatile at working with a wider variety of opponents than Misawa. Hell, look at the goddamn main event of that 10/25/95 show (Misawa vs. Kobashi). What does it say when somebody who had never wrestled in All Japan before (and was extremely limited in what they could do offensively due to working a completely different style in UWFi) has a match that utterly smokes what two vets like Misawa and Kobashi did on top? To me, it says that Toshiaki Kawada, at his motivated best, which it was obvious that this was, is as good a heavyweight as there was in the 90's. Kawada's work with Gary in terms of how he sold for the suplex teases, and the cross armbreakers, was an element of wrestling that Misawa never learned. He didn't adapt his style to Gary's strengths, which was largely the reason why his TC match the next March failed to even come within the same ballpark as Kawada's match.

 

Basically, your explanation sucked and was an obvious cover-up to your ignorance of this subject.

 

And I have better things to do than argue with a bunch of teenagers in a folder that serves zero point.

 

Last time I watched Diesel/Undertaker, I was 15 years old, and back then it bored the shit out of me, so I don't even want to bother today.

 

"Good times"--Adam Carolla