Sickeningstory

[Guest TheMikeSC]

From the BBC News web site:

 

"Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers.

In a rare criticism of the kingdom's powerful "mutaween" police, the Saudi media has accused them of hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire on Monday.

 

About 800 pupils were inside the school in the holy city of Mecca when the tragedy occurred.

 

 

15 girls died in the blaze and more than 50 others were injured

 

According to the al-Eqtisadiah daily, firemen confronted police after they tried to keep the girls inside because they were not wearing the headscarves and abayas (black robes) required by the kingdom's strict interpretation of Islam.

 

One witness said he saw three policemen "beating young girls to prevent them from leaving the school because they were not wearing the abaya".

 

The Saudi Gazette quoted witnesses as saying that the police - known as the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice - had stopped men who tried to help the girls and warned "it is a sinful to approach them".

 

The father of one of the dead girls said that the school watchman even refused to open the gates to let the girls out.

 

"Lives could have been saved had they not been stopped by members of the Commission for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice," the newspaper concluded.

 

Relatives' anger

 

Families of the victims have been incensed over the deaths.

 

Most of the victims were crushed in a stampede as they tried to flee the blaze.

 

The school was locked at the time of the fire - a usual practice to ensure full segregation of the sexes.

 

The religious police are widely feared in Saudi Arabia. They roam the streets enforcing dress codes and sex segregation, and ensuring prayers are performed on time.

 

Those who refuse to obey their orders are often beaten and sometimes put in jail."

 

 

Remember, these same people are berating Israel for their crackdown on suicide bombers---but they FORCE young girls to burn to death rather than appear in public with ankles and foreheads showing. And, sadly, this isn't an isolated incident of a Muslim theocracy placing more value in religious dogma than in the sanctity of human life. This is a fairly common occurence---even in the most "moderate" of Muslim countries.

 

At what point will we finally say that we will back Israel, unconditionally, in WHATEVER they choose to do to protect themselves?

 

I will go ahead and say it---the Muslim governments in the Middle East are a collection of evil and corrupt people. They are a plague on humanity and not deserving of one red cent we gve to them in aid all of the time. They deserve NOTHING but our never-ending scorn and derision for being such an exceptionally evil group of people.

 

There is no "good" Muslim theocracy in the Middle East. Iran is horribly oppressive and pro-censorship, even with their "reformist" President. Iraq is, well, Iraq. Jordan is equally as evil. If they were given any power, Palestine would end up JUST like all of the other countries (amazing how rarely Arafat's contol of the PLO is challenged, isn't it? Somehow, I don't see him supporting anything resembling freedom should the world make the monumental blunder of giving Palestine ANY land for a country). Egypt is also an incredibly oppressive regime.

 

Seems the only country out there with a Muslim-majority population that doesn't have these problems is Turkey, and that's largely because they, unlike the assorted yahoos and idiots in the Middle East, don't allow the church to rule the country.

                 -=Mike

 

...Who is legitimately concerned that there will eventually have to be a conflict between the Muslim and Western worlds.

[Guest dreamer420]

That's fucked.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

The U.S. does back Isreal. The reason President Bush was critical of Isreal is because the U.S wants the support of the Arab nations in a war against Iraq.

 

Don't think for a second that the U.S. wouldn't go after a country that attacked Isreal.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

The U.S. does back Isreal. The reason President Bush was critical of Isreal is because the U.S wants the support of the Arab nations in a war against Iraq.

 

Don't think for a second that the U.S. wouldn't go after a country that attacked Isreal. >>>

 

 

Thing is, Bush (like Clinton before him) have criticized Israel for their actions against the Palestinians, ignoring that the Israelis did not initiate the recent aggression---Palestinian suicide bombers did.

 

We will support Israel. We should, however, remove ALL support from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, et al.

                                -=Mike

 

...If we give your country money, you had best not exhort your citizenry to hate us.

[Guest J*ingus]

Problem is, the U.S. isn't very good at curtailing its own business operations over human rights issues.  Best example: China.  How long have we been clamoring for basic human freedoms in that country?  Yet our government has done nothing but relax the embargoes and embrace China as a new trade partner.  

 

Oh yeah, and the Middle Eastern governments in general can go fuck themselves.  History has proven it, religious authorities NEVER make for good national governments.

[Guest DrTom]

As if we needed more evidence that Islamic countries have a corrupt, morally repugnant, and just plain stupid religion and culture.  There are times I regret saying we shouldn't just bomb them all into oblivion, and this is one of those times.

[Guest TJH]

I see no reason to have any sympathy with the Arabs at all.

They have stuffed themselves up, and the Dictatorship governments in particular Saudi Arabia, point the finger at America for their own faults. The criticisms they make of us are really directed against themselves, but they are too stupid to realise that.

If you saw a documentary called "Letter to America" which I believed was made by the BBC, this is the perfect example of this.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Problem is, the U.S. isn't very good at curtailing its own business operations over human rights issues.  Best example: China.  How long have we been clamoring for basic human freedoms in that country?  Yet our government has done nothing but relax the embargoes and embrace China as a new trade partner.  

 

 

 

And we are completely incorrect in doing so. I used to slam Clinton for being in bed with the Chinese and will do the same with Bush as he doesn't appear to be much better.

 

Okay, he isn't giving them missile technology---but he's still FAR too cozy.

 

It's about time we recognize what WE are. Without us, China doesn't make much money. WE, if I'm not mistaken, are their largest export market. If we decide to stop buying from them, they will go the way of Cuba and wallow in abject poverty for years and years.

 

 

 

Oh yeah, and the Middle Eastern governments in general can go fuck themselves.  History has proven it, religious authorities NEVER make for good national governments.

 

 

 

 

You'd think the history of how poorly the Catholic Church basically ran things in the Medieval era would've shown that well.

 

If the Saudis are willing to allow their young children to die because they're showing ankles and foreheads in public, then the country deserves every ounce of misery inflicted upon it.

                         -=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

I see no reason to have any sympathy with the Arabs at all.

They have stuffed themselves up, and the Dictatorship governments in particular Saudi Arabia, point the finger at America for their own faults. The criticisms they make of us are really directed against themselves, but they are too stupid to realise that.

 

 

 

I don't think most Americans realize just how delusional the people in those countries are. I can't blame the citizenry because all they read is the official state-run media, but the stories in said media are mind-boggling. Check out www.memri.org for translations of official newspapers from the Middle East.

 

The Klan is more subtle with their literature than the Arab governments.

                                     -=Mike

 

...And somebody thinks that if Israel gives Palestine the West Bank that things will suddenly be better?

[Guest]

Wow, what a bunch of racist bastards you all are!  Have you no grasp of history and the role America has played in the Middle East?  Please note the fact that the ruling family in Saudi Arabia (which supports the moral police) is extremely despotic and unpopular in their own country and it's only the strident military and financial backing of the U.S. that keeps them (and the moral police) in business?  Remember how we gave Saddam chemical weapons and military aid to fight Iran (which only became an Islamic theocracy in reaction to the CIA's overthrow of the democratically elected leadership of Iran and the instillation of the corrupt, politically repressive Shah)?  Remember how the new intifada is primarily a reaction to Sharon's intentionally inflammatory visit to the Temple Mount and Israel's continued building of settlements in Palestinian territory in violation of every peace agreement they've ever signed?  And how they demand Arafat stop the suicide bombers while at the same time imprisoning him in his house and destroying all of his telecommunications equipment?

  The U.S. bears a huge responsibility for the current state of affairs in the Middle East and all of the racist reactionary rheroric in the world won't change the facts.  Spout off about how horrible Arabs are all you want but I guarantee that if it was YOUR home and land that was stolen by the Israeli army, if it was YOUR sister or mother who was raped by soldiers or killed by an invading army that completely denies even your basic humanity, never mind your human rights, y'all would be singing a substantially different tune.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Wow, what a bunch of racist bastards you all are!  Have you no grasp of history and the role America has played in the Middle East?  Please note the fact that the ruling family in Saudi Arabia (which supports the moral police) is extremely despotic and unpopular in their own country and it's only the strident military and financial backing of the U.S. that keeps them (and the moral police) in business?

 

 

 

And many of us here vigorously oppose us sending the Saud family one red cent.

 

 

 

Remember how we gave Saddam chemical weapons and military aid to fight Iran (which only became an Islamic theocracy in reaction to the CIA's overthrow of the democratically elected leadership of Iran and the instillation of the corrupt, politically repressive Shah)?

 

 

 

 

Democracy has never existed in Iran. Let's keep that falsehood out of this debate.

 

 

 

Remember how the new intifada is primarily a reaction to Sharon's intentionally inflammatory visit to the Temple Mount and Israel's continued building of settlements in Palestinian territory in violation of every peace agreement they've ever signed?

 

 

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but the PLO is the one who sends bombers into Israel.

 

It was Arafat who walked out of the Camp David accords.

 

And, may I ask you a question: Let's say that Israel leaes the West Bank entirely and builds no settlements---will the attacks ever stop?

 

The ONLY reason Israel is in the West Bank now is because they were attacked and won the war.

 

 

 

And how they demand Arafat stop the suicide bombers while at the same time imprisoning him in his house and destroying all of his telecommunications equipment?

 

 

 

 

Absolutely. If he won't stop sending out bombers, he SHOULD be kept under very close scrutiny.

 

 

The U.S. bears a huge responsibility for the current state of affairs in the Middle East and all of the racist reactionary rheroric in the world won't change the facts.  Spout off about how horrible Arabs are all you want but I guarantee that if it was YOUR home and land that was stolen by the Israeli army, if it was YOUR sister or mother who was raped by soldiers or killed by an invading army that completely denies even your basic humanity, never mind your human rights, y'all would be singing a substantially different tune.

 

 

 

 

If it was my mother who sent me off to kill myself in the hopes of killing innocent civilians, I can only hope that somebody would kill me first.

 

Until Arabs can learn to live peacefully with Israel, we should side with the ONLY democracy in that unmitigated hellhole.

                      -=Mike

 

...A little annoyed that so many psychos are relevant due to the luck of living above a ton of oil.

[Guest]

Typical conservative rhetoric- I love the part where you assume that the Israeli occupation has nothing to do with the suicide bombings despite the fact that they are now and have always been directly linked to the occupation.  I especially like the argument that Arafat has direct control over the actions of the bombers despite the fact that (unlike the bloodthirsty Israeli occupying army which is directly accountable to the Sharon government) the suicide bombers of the intifada are not agents of the Palestinian Authority but of clandestine terrorist organizations.  Did we hold Clinton responsible for McVeigh?  No, and it would be stupid to, just like it's stupid to assume that Arafat dictates the actions of the bombers when we (the American public) have never seen any actual hard evidence to support that claim.  But hey, most conservative arguments fall apart when you try to compare them to the, y'know, facts and stuff.

  As for Arafat walking out at Camp David, do you even know the details of the Israeli proposal?  They would not only have kept complete control over the foreign policy of the Palestinian state, but also have had first use rights to all roads, water facilities and power stations.  Plus the entire proposed state would have been bisected half a dozen times by chains of illegal Israeli settlements, so that a Palestinian trying to travel from North to South in his own country would have to pass Israeli "security checkpoints" (where all Arabs are subjected to violent physical and emotional abuse by the occupying army).  What responsible leader WOULD agree to that "deal"?  

  Finally, why is it the responsibility of the Palestinians to live peacefully with the people who stole their land?  Israel is the product of a massive and unfortunately typical colonial theft of lands that had been peacefully occupied by the Palestinians for years and years and years.  One would think that it is the responsibility of the Israelis to make amends to their neighbors, not continue the hideous legacy of religious bigotry, colonialism and brutal suppression of Arab dissidents.  

 I notice, by the way, Mr. Mike, that you don't even see fit to adknowledge the United States' role in creating and prolonging this mess in the first place, which is funny considering our tax dollars fund Israel to the tune of $1,000 for every Israeli citizen.  If the Middle East is a hellhole, it was the colonial aspirations of the U.S. and Western Europe that made it that way.

  Oh, and by the way, refering to all non-whites in the Middle East as Arabs as if they were some monolithic cultural entity is racism.  Palestinians are different from Saudis, who are different from Iraquis.  If you choose to see the world in terms of race, that's your choice but I find it really quite disgusting.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Typical conservative rhetoric- I love the part where you assume that the Israeli occupation has nothing to do with the suicide bombings despite the fact that they are now and have always been directly linked to the occupation.

 

 

 

They were routinely attacked before any occupation occurred.

 

Losing territory is the price a state pays for losing wars.

 

 

 

I especially like the argument that Arafat has direct control over the actions of the bombers despite the fact that (unlike the bloodthirsty Israeli occupying army which is directly accountable to the Sharon government) the suicide bombers of the intifada are not agents of the Palestinian Authority but of clandestine terrorist organizations.

 

 

Yeah, hold on to THAT pipe dream. Arafat could stop the killing tomorrow if he wanted to. He DOESN'T want to. He WANTS the violence to continue. And, thus, I will support Israel in WHATEVER they choose to do to defend themselves.

 

 

 

Did we hold Clinton responsible for McVeigh?

 

 

 

Did Clinton praise McVeigh? In fact, didn't we, you know, PUNISH McVeigh and then went after similar groups we felt could be a potential threat?

 

 

 

No, and it would be stupid to, just like it's stupid to assume that Arafat dictates the actions of the bombers when we (the American public) have never seen any actual hard evidence to support that claim.  But hey, most conservative arguments fall apart when you try to compare them to the, y'know, facts and stuff.

 

 

 

 

Amazing that someone who is apparently to the lef as you seem to have nothing to back up your convictions outside of faith.

 

 

 

As for Arafat walking out at Camp David, do you even know the details of the Israeli proposal?  They would not only have kept complete control over the foreign policy of the Palestinian state, but also have had first use rights to all roads, water facilities and power stations.  Plus the entire proposed state would have been bisected half a dozen times by chains of illegal Israeli settlements, so that a Palestinian trying to travel from North to South in his own country would have to pass Israeli "security checkpoints" (where all Arabs are subjected to violent physical and emotional abuse by the occupying army).  What responsible leader WOULD agree to that "deal"?

 

 

 

One who HAS NO LAND TO CLAIM OF THEIR OWN presently.

 

 

 

Finally, why is it the responsibility of the Palestinians to live peacefully with the people who stole their land?  Israel is the product of a massive and unfortunately typical colonial theft of lands that had been peacefully occupied by the Palestinians for years and years and years.

 

 

The Jews deserve a homeland after their centuries of mistreatment by just about eveybody.

 

 

 

One would think that it is the responsibility of the Israelis to make amends to their neighbors, not continue the hideous legacy of religious bigotry, colonialism and brutal suppression of Arab dissidents.  

 

 

 

 

When the Arab dissidents kill innocent Israelis, then Israel's PRIMARY obligation is to protect their own.

 

 

 

I notice, by the way, Mr. Mike, that you don't even see fit to adknowledge the United States' role in creating and prolonging this mess in the first place, which is funny considering our tax dollars fund Israel to the tune of $1,000 for every Israeli citizen.

 

 

La-de-da.

 

We should support the only free country in that Godforsaken hellhole. They also, unlike Egypt and Saudi Arabia, don't foster virulent anti-American and anti-Semitic sentimens while give them money.

 

 

If the Middle East is a hellhole, it was the colonial aspirations of the U.S. and Western Europe that made it that way.

 

 

 

Yup, it's always the colonialists.

 

Just checking, the West put all of the Muslim extremists in power, right?

 

Heck, at least with colonialism, there was less random bloodshed.

 

 

 

Oh, and by the way, refering to all non-whites in the Middle East as Arabs as if they were some monolithic cultural entity is racism.

 

 

 

Whatever.

 

 

 

Palestinians are different from Saudis, who are different from Iraquis.  If you choose to see the world in terms of race, that's your choice but I find it really quite disgusting.

 

 

 

I see that part of the world in terms of intolerant religious extremists.

 

And hearing ANYBODY defend the Middle East yet call somebody else a racist is laughable.

 

The Arab countries are the most racist countries on Earth presently.

                                     -=Mike

[Guest J*ingus]

Mike, I know you'll get this one back, but I'd like to take a crack at it too.  

 

Typical conservative rhetoric- I love the part where you assume that the Israeli occupation has nothing to do with the suicide bombings despite the fact that they are now and have always been directly linked to the occupation.

 

Of course it's due to the occupation, at least on the Palestinian side.  But do you think Iraq's Scud missles were lobbed towards Israel in hopes of liberating the Muslims?  Those missles killed without regard to one's religion.  They simply wanted to hurt the nation of Israel for their own reasons.  

 

I especially like the argument that Arafat has direct control over the actions of the bombers despite the fact that (unlike the bloodthirsty Israeli occupying army which is directly accountable to the Sharon government)

 

The key word here is "bloodthirsty".  Almost every single time I've seen someone use that word, their own emotions make them biased.  Do you think that the Israeli troopers are really in Palestine just in order to hassle & kill innocent people?  These are soldiers, their purpose is to win the conflict, not see how sadistic they can be along the way.  And to use a spin on your own previous argument, if you've had friends or family who've been killed by the suicide bombings, you're not going to look too kindly on the Palestinians.  

 

the suicide bombers of the intifada are not agents of the Palestinian Authority but of clandestine terrorist organizations.  Did we hold Clinton responsible for McVeigh?

 

Buzzzzzz, thanks for playing.  McVeigh attacked the government of his own country.  The bombers are attacking the citizens of a different country.  

 

No, and it would be stupid to, just like it's stupid to assume that Arafat dictates the actions of the bombers when we (the American public) have never seen any actual hard evidence to support that claim.

 

You do have a point there, in that we don't know exactly how much control Arafat has over the situation.  But if he's got a lot, he's certainly not stopping the attacks; and if he's got a little, than what good is he if he can't police or pacify his own people?  

 

As for Arafat walking out at Camp David, do you even know the details of the Israeli proposal?  They would not only have kept complete control over the foreign policy of the Palestinian state, but also have had first use rights to all roads, water facilities and power stations.  Plus the entire proposed state would have been bisected half a dozen times by chains of illegal Israeli settlements, so that a Palestinian trying to travel from North to South in his own country would have to pass Israeli "security checkpoints" (where all Arabs are subjected to violent physical and emotional abuse by the occupying army).  What responsible leader WOULD agree to that "deal"?

 

I don't know the details of the accord myself, is there anyone who can confirm this?  

 

Finally, why is it the responsibility of the Palestinians to live peacefully with the people who stole their land?

 

The land stealing was done in 1946-1948, which was a long time ago.  Most of the people who did the stealing are dead, as are most of the people who were stolen from.  Like it or not, it's Israel now.  Semantic arguments won't change that.  

 

Israel is the product of a massive and unfortunately typical colonial theft of lands that had been peacefully occupied by the Palestinians for years and years and years.

 

Colonial theft of lands, hmm, would that be similar to, say, when the Ottoman Empire tried to invade and conquer Eastern Europe and parts of Africa?  Muslim nations have their own histories of violence and aggression, just like everyone else.  Jerusalem has historically been one of the most consistently violent places on the face of the earth, and to say that it was ever "peacefully ooccupied" for any length of time is a falsehood.  

 

One would think that it is the responsibility of the Israelis to make amends to their neighbors, not continue the hideous legacy of religious bigotry, colonialism and brutal suppression of Arab dissidents.

 

They won't "make amends" as long as they keep getting attacked.  In a fight, it doesn't matter who threw the first punch, neither combatant is going to simply stop and say "I'm sorry" because the other party was morally wronged.  

 

I notice, by the way, Mr. Mike, that you don't even see fit to adknowledge the United States' role in creating and prolonging this mess in the first place, which is funny considering our tax dollars fund Israel to the tune of $1,000 for every Israeli citizen.

 

I'll agree with you there.  Sometimes the U.S. takes far too active a role in things that aren't really our business.  Somalia, anyone?  

 

If the Middle East is a hellhole, it was the colonial aspirations of the U.S. and Western Europe that made it that way.

 

The Middle East has been a hellhole for a long time now, and has never gone for very long over the past few centuries without major warfare between its own states.  

 

Oh, and by the way, refering to all non-whites in the Middle East as Arabs as if they were some monolithic cultural entity is racism.  Palestinians are different from Saudis, who are different from Iraquis.  If you choose to see the world in terms of race, that's your choice but I find it really quite disgusting.

 

You certainly seem to see the Israelis in terms of race, and seem to think that they were some monolithic cultural entity.  The way you talk about them, it seems like you think they're determined to carry out their own Holocaust against the Palestinians, when that isn't true.  Israel also has peace activists, doctors, teachers, little kids, old women, and so on.  And those people are being killed by the bombings as well.  

 

In short, Israel is wrong for killing people, AND Palestine is wrong for killing people.

[Guest]

As, so when "the Jews" are mistreated by "just about everyone" they deserve a homeland?  I guess you support reparations for slavery and giving the United States back to the Native Americans too, huh?

  When Arafat does arrest militants, the Mossad or the Israeli army are right there with F-18 strikes and assasination attempts in the jails in direct violation of every human rights convention Israel has ever signed, sort of a high-tech lynch mob.  What a great incentive for Arafat to continue arresting those accused of terrorist acts.  You still have yet to cite ANY evidence to support your claim that "Arafat could stop the killing tomorrow"?  Are you an official of the Palestinian Authority?  Were you in Gaza yesterday?  No, you don't know any more than what the government tells you, and if you take Sharon OR Bush at face value (when both are proven and proud liars) then you are too naive to take seriously.

 Speaking of naiveity, you obviously are not familiar with the laws of cause-and-effect.  For example- America installs the Shah.  The Shah suppresses all legitimate political dissent (on the orders of the CIA).  Muslim fundamentalists accrue power by promising a regime change.  When the revolution ends, the mullahs seize power and establish a repressive government of their own.  See how easy it is to establish a direct causal relationship between Western imperialism and Eastern fundamentalism?  Pretty goddamn obvious if you think about it for even one second.

  And if you want to accuse ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE EAST of intolerance, I'd suggest you go back and look at your own writings to see how much tolerane they demonstrate.  Face it, dude, you are a cultural fundamentalist with no more tolerance or open-mindedness than the most backward mullah in the Taliban.

 Oh, in response to this other guy I should add that "Israeli" is a nationality, and when I talk about "Israelis" I am talking about the citizens of Israel.  There is no more of an ethnic/racial/religious conotation to that than there is in talking about "Americans".  Referring to anyone from the Middle East as an Arab and not by their nationality is in inverse of that.  If I were biased against Israel for ethnic reasons, wouldn't I be referring to the people of Israel as "Jews"?  And when I refer to the Israeli army as "bloodthirsty" it's becase for every Israeli civilian casualty there are scores of Palestinian civilians killed indiscriminately in retaliation.  Many of the Palestinian dead may have survived their injuries if the Israeli army allowed ambulances into the camps they invade.  If shooting children and watching them die rather than allowing them to seek medical help isn't evidence of excessive cruelty, I don't know what is.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

As, so when "the Jews" are mistreated by "just about everyone" they deserve a homeland?  I guess you support reparations for slavery and giving the United States back to the Native Americans too, huh?

 

 

Nope, because who would pay those reparations? A sizable chunk of the population arrived here after all of the Native American land was seized.

 

 

When Arafat does arrest militants, the Mossad or the Israeli army are right there with F-18 strikes and assasination attempts in the jails in direct violation of every human rights convention Israel has ever signed, sort of a high-tech lynch mob.

 

 

Israel has no faith whatsoever---and for good reason---that Arafat will do anything.

 

In the end, you don't see Israel sending out suicide bombers. Israel is a defensive country. They've been attacked for decades now.

 

Again, why is Israel the size it currently is? Because they were attacked and Israel was lucky enough to learn that the Arab countries, militarily, aren't terribly effective.

 

 

What a great incentive for Arafat to continue arresting those accused of terrorist acts.  You still have yet to cite ANY evidence to support your claim that "Arafat could stop the killing tomorrow"?  Are you an official of the Palestinian Authority?

 

 

 

When he decides to say "Stop it", we would find out.

 

He has NEVER condemned it. Thus, he has NEVER attempted it.

 

 

 

Were you in Gaza yesterday?  No, you don't know any more than what the government tells you, and if you take Sharon OR Bush at face value (when both are proven and proud liars) then you are too naive to take seriously.

 

 

 

You call me naive, yet you think Palestine can be trusted?

 

Pot, meet kettle.

 

 

 

Speaking of naiveity, you obviously are not familiar with the laws of cause-and-effect.  For example- America installs the Shah.  The Shah suppresses all legitimate political dissent (on the orders of the CIA).  Muslim fundamentalists accrue power by promising a regime change.  When the revolution ends, the mullahs seize power and establish a repressive government of their own.  See how easy it is to establish a direct causal relationship between Western imperialism and Eastern fundamentalism?  Pretty goddamn obvious if you think about it for even one second.

 

 

 

So, the Iran, which allegedly wanted an open government, produced a regime MORE repressive than the Shah's?

 

Well, at least you aren't calling their current President a reformer.

 

 

 

And if you want to accuse ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE EAST of intolerance, I'd suggest you go back and look at your own writings to see how much tolerane they demonstrate.

 

 

 

I don't advocate the killing or injuring of anybody. I say that Israel has ever right in the world to defend themselves and that the U.S should remove every red cent of spending from Muslim countries that loathe us.

 

Saudi Arabia financially supports wahhabists? Then let them support them without our money. Kuwait hates us? Let them rot the next time Iraq invades them.

 

I say we should support the ONE free country in the region---and, ironically, the country with the most prosperous and happy people.

 

 

Face it, dude, you are a cultural fundamentalist with no more tolerance or open-mindedness than the most backward mullah in the Taliban.

 

 

 

When I advocate killing them, you might have a point.

 

Until then, your analogy is horribly flawed and bordering on laughable.

 

 

Oh, in response to this other guy I should add that "Israeli" is a nationality, and when I talk about "Israelis" I am talking about the citizens of Israel.  There is no more of an ethnic/racial/religious conotation to that than there is in talking about "Americans".  Referring to anyone from the Middle East as an Arab and not by their nationality is in inverse of that.  If I were biased against Israel for ethnic reasons, wouldn't I be referring to the people of Israel as "Jews"?  And when I refer to the Israeli army as "bloodthirsty" it's becase for every Israeli civilian casualty there are scores of Palestinian civilians killed indiscriminately in retaliation.

 

 

Note the word "retaliation".

 

Israel "retaliates"---they don't INITIATE.

 

If a terrorist group, which PLO is, wishes to attack Israel, then so be it. It's the TERRORISTS fault for hiding amongst the citizenry---violating the Geneva Conventions.

 

 

 

Many of the Palestinian dead may have survived their injuries if the Israeli army allowed ambulances into the camps they invade.

 

 

And risk possible violence when that happens?

 

If Palestinians had proven themselves to be trust-worthy, then Israel might be more willing.

 

 

 

If shooting children and watching them die rather than allowing them to seek medical help isn't evidence of excessive cruelty, I don't know what is.

 

 

 

 

I think allowing young girls to burn to death because they're showing ankles and foreheads is cruelty---but I'm just a cultural fundamentalist.

                     -=Mike

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

Hashthrash, a lesson from a fellow liberated citizen.  Coming into this forum with views not concurrent to the "status quo" is like running into a brick wall, and I think it's safe to say that adage goes both ways.  Argue away if you want.  I have found it doesn't accomplish much....

 

As for everyone else, THE UNITED STATES AND ISREAL ARE NOT INNOCENT BYSTANDERS IN ALL OF THIS. You have to be incredibly naive or complacent to think that the "Arabs" hate us just because they can. It is true that their much of their anti-American opinions are shaped by their governments, but it's no secret that we have supported or do support some of these governments.  Awfully convenient for all those guys in suits who make horrendous amounts of money off of war and oil....

 

"As if we needed more evidence that Islamic countries have a corrupt, morally repugnant, and just plain stupid religion and culture.  There are times I regret saying we shouldn't just bomb them all into oblivion, and this is one of those times."-Dr.Tom

 

 

Wow, Doc.  Replace Islam with Judaism there, and some may you sound exactly like a Nazi.  I would like for you to explain to me why all of the Islamic world should be bombed into oblivion? Is every person who follows Islam stupid and morally repugnant?  Please enlighten me; it's been so along since I was a blind sheep towards America that I forgot what it's like.   Everyone here claims to know what evil is, but you can't even turn the mirror on yourself......

 

"Sally take my hand

We'll travel south crossland

Put out the fire, and don't look past my shoulder

The exodus is here

The happy ones are near

Let's get together before we get much older"-The Who

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Hashthrash, a lesson from a fellow liberated citizen.  Coming into this forum with views not concurrent to the "status quo" is like running into a brick wall, and I think it's safe to say that adage goes both ways.  Argue away if you want.  I have found it doesn't accomplish much....

 

As for everyone else, THE UNITED STATES AND ISREAL ARE NOT INNOCENT BYSTANDERS IN ALL OF THIS. You have to be incredibly naive or complacent to think that the "Arabs" hate us just because they can.>>

 

 

Why does Kuwait hate us? Can you explain THAT one away? We only, you know, SAVED THEM. They support Palestine when Arafat, you know, SUPPORTED SADDAM IN THE INVASION OF KUWAIT.

 

Why does Egypt hate us, considering that we give them a ton of money every friggin' year?

 

Why does Saudi Arabia hate us when we're the ones who keep the inept, corrupt Saud family in power?

 

Can you give a logical reason behind their utter disdain for us?

 

Is it our alliance with Israel?

 

 

 

It is true that their much of their anti-American opinions are shaped by their governments, but it's no secret that we have supported or do support some of these governments. Awfully convenient for all those guys in suits who make horrendous amounts of money off of war and oil....

 

 

 

But how are WE the bad guys if our former allies turn on us?

 

 

 

"As if we needed more evidence that Islamic countries have a corrupt, morally repugnant, and just plain stupid religion and culture.  There are times I regret saying we shouldn't just bomb them all into oblivion, and this is one of those times."-Dr.Tom

 

 

Wow, Doc.  Replace Islam with Judaism there, and some may you sound exactly like a Nazi.  I would like for you to explain to me why all of the Islamic world should be bombed into oblivion? Is every person who follows Islam stupid and morally repugnant?

 

 

He didn't say that Muslims were evil or repugnant. However, the governments LED by Muslims ARE evil and repugnant.

 

Again, THEY FORCED YOUNG GIRLS TO BURN TO DEATH BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T WEARING APPROPRIATE "MUSLIM" GARB.

 

How in the world can any person in the world defend that?

 

 

Please enlighten me; it's been so along since I was a blind sheep towards America that I forgot what it's like.   Everyone here claims to know what evil is, but you can't even turn the mirror on yourself......

 

 

 

To paraphrase Jim Cornette, to compare the evil of the U.S to the evil of Arab regimes is to compare speeding to vehicular homicide.

                                       -=Mike

[Guest]

Well, it's like this, Mike: I hear a lot of people these days bringing up the Camp David Accords while completely ignoring the fact that it was Israel's refusal to admit international monitors and their continual and illegal land-grabbing in the West Bank and Gaza were what sank the perfectly acceptable Oslo plan.  Hmmmm, speaking of acts of delibarate provication....maybe even, INITIATING hostilities?!  As for Palestinian accountability, perhaps we should look to Israel's constant suppression of political activism or coalition buliding by the Palestinian Authority for the reason why Arafat's administration is so weak.  Sort of in the same way the British troops oppressed and harassed the founding fathers of this nation in Boston and Philly.  The same founding fathers who eventually turned to violent revoultion to slip that yoke of oppression.  Or the way in which the first generation of Israelis engaged in a bloody terrorist campaign agaist the British colonizers for their own national sovernty.  Gosh, so many similarities.  Maybe the issue isn't so one-sided after all.  

  In the same vein, I think it's very unfair that you essesntially blame the Arab people for the existance of repressive, often violent theocratic or military regimes.  Do you feel the same way about East Germans?  Or Czechs?  Or Mongols?  How about the Burmese?  Are the peasants and the victims of repressive regimes to be blamed for the condition into which they were often born?  And it's hard to overlook the fact that some of the most repressive regimes are financed and armed by the American government.  The whole point of this post, in the end, is that our tax dollars support the system of religious police that condemned those girls to death.  There are plenty of Muslim countries that aren't nearly so theocratic (Turkey, Egypt, UAE, Morocco...), but they have the temerity to stand up to the U.S.  So we prop up this godawful Saud family as our ungrateful puppet regime.  It's disgraceful, but the roots of this Saudi cultural climate aren't all stuck in Middle Eastern soil (so to speak).

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Well, it's like this, Mike: I hear a lot of people these days bringing up the Camp David Accords while completely ignoring the fact that it was Israel's refusal to admit international monitors and their continual and illegal land-grabbing in the West Bank and Gaza were what sank the perfectly acceptable Oslo plan.

 

 

Arafat, by every account, wouldn't even NEGOTIATE on land. Israel has every right to insist on strategic land that will allow them to defend themselves against attack.

 

 

Hmmmm, speaking of acts of delibarate provication....maybe even, INITIATING hostilities?!

 

 

 

 

Israel has total rights to the land since Palestine's existence as a country seems iffy.

 

 

 

As for Palestinian accountability, perhaps we should look to Israel's constant suppression of political activism or coalition buliding by the Palestinian Authority for the reason why Arafat's administration is so weak.

 

 

What coalition building has EVER been attempted. Throughout the 90's, the left in Israel had P.M after P.M attempting to exchange land for peace. Heck, Barak is out of office because Arafat refused to work with him. Clinton blames Arafat for the failure of the peace accords.

 

 

Sort of in the same way the British troops oppressed and harassed the founding fathers of this nation in Boston and Philly.  The same founding fathers who eventually turned to violent revoultion to slip that yoke of oppression.

 

 

Well, except that our founding fathers didn't send their sons out with bombs strapped to their chests to attempt to kill innocents.

 

There is a slight difference.

 

 

 

Or the way in which the first generation of Israelis engaged in a bloody terrorist campaign agaist the British colonizers for their own national sovernty.  Gosh, so many similarities.  Maybe the issue isn't so one-sided after all.  

 In the same vein, I think it's very unfair that you essesntially blame the Arab people for the existance of repressive, often violent theocratic or military regimes.

 

 

I don't blame the Arab people. I don't even fault them for hating America because they only know what their government tells them.

 

I will say that the GOVERNMENTS are unspeakably evil and corrupt.

 

 

 

Do you feel the same way about East Germans?  Or Czechs?  Or Mongols?  How about the Burmese?  Are the peasants and the victims of repressive regimes to be blamed for the condition into which they were often born?  And it's hard to overlook the fact that some of the most repressive regimes are financed and armed by the American government.

 

 

Except that it's a totally irrelevant point.

 

 

 

The whole point of this post, in the end, is that our tax dollars support the system of religious police that condemned those girls to death.  There are plenty of Muslim countries that aren't nearly so theocratic (Turkey, Egypt, UAE, Morocco...), but they have the temerity to stand up to the U.S.

 

 

Egypt is quite oppressive, sorry to tell you. They're also irrationally anti-Semitic, so sympathy for them is in short supply.

 

Turkey is one country we should deifintely try and build ties to, especially since Europe has basically been ignoring them for years.

 

 

So we prop up this godawful Saud family as our ungrateful puppet regime.

 

 

And we shouldn't do so. It's not like I disagree with that.

 

 

 

It's disgraceful, but the roots of this Saudi cultural climate aren't all stuck in Middle Eastern soil (so to speak).

 

 

 

 

No, it's stuck in a religious dogma that is every bit as devastating as Christianity was during the Medieval era.

                                       -=Mike

[Guest]

I'll go with another sick story.

 

Anyone here familair with the religious group of Fallan Gong? Quickly, a sort of naturalist pacifist religion in mainland China. Needless to say, the Chinese do not like Fallan Gong. To the point where it recently came down that the Chinese has a shoot-to-kill order on any Fallan Gong member seen handing out info on the religion.

 

Government in China has called them a cult and actually contacted Dubya Bush about having them declared a terrorist group.

 

All this for protesting against China's government.

 

I really really REALLY don't like China.

 

I think anyone who thinks they should be allowed to host an Olympics ANY time is off their rocker.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

I'll go with another sick story.

 

Anyone here familair with the religious group of Fallan Gong? Quickly, a sort of naturalist pacifist religion in mainland China. Needless to say, the Chinese to not like Fallan Gong. To the point where it recently came down that the Chinese has a shoot-to-kill order on any Fallan Gong member seen handing out info on the religion.

 

Government in China has called them a cult and actually contacted Dubya Bush about having them declared a terrorist group.

 

All this for protesting against China's government.

 

I really really REALLY don't like China.

 

 

 

Why we seem to fear offending China so much is lost on me. I've not seen anything terribly ominous out of Falun Gong in what little I know of them.

 

Then again, China tried to wipe out Tibetan Buddhists, so maybe they just don't like that whole non-violent protest thing. :-)

                -=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

BTW, Palestinians blew up an Israeli bus early this morning.

                                -=Mike

 

...Of course, Israel probably had it coming. How dare they ride a bus.

[Guest]

Why we seem to fear offending China so much is lost on me. I've not seen anything terribly ominous out of Falun Gong in what little I know of them.

Then again, China tried to wipe out Tibetan Buddhists, so maybe they just don't like that whole non-violent protest thing. :-)

 

Remember, to China, religion, ANY religion, is poison.

 

We seem to forget how many times Americans who have been spreading Christianity in China have been pretty roundly hounded by the Chinese. Falun Gong is a group I have tremendous sympathy for just because they remind me of the Tibetins.

 

At some point, someone, either us or the UN, needs to tell China to knock this s*** off or not to expect anymore foreign aid. Won't look so damned smug once the world's resources are cut off, will you, Mao?

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Remember, to China, religion, ANY religion, is poison.

 

 

Yet people think we should negotiate with them. We need to eventually decide that human rights does matter somewhat to us.

 

 

We seem to forget how many times Americans who have been spreading Christianity in China have been pretty roundly hounded by the Chinese. Falun Gong is a group I have tremendous sympathy for just because they remind me of the Tibetins.  

 

 

 

 

Well, like you said about the Olympics earlier, that the IOC could give a country as wicked as China the Games is offensive. The Beijing games will be like Berlin all over.

 

 

At some point, someone, either us or the UN, needs to tell China to knock this s*** off or not to expect anymore foreign aid. Won't look so damned smug once the world's resources are cut off, will you, Mao

 

 

 

It won't happen, though. Even if WE cut them off, most of the rest of the world won't.

                 -=Mike

[Guest]

Oooooh, inconsistent Mikey: adknowledge your own government's role in horrifying human rights abuses (both directly and indirectly via the many dictatorships we sponsor) before you start trying to step to the Chinese for what they do.  As a matter of fact, the U.S. imprisons more people per capita than China does, which sort of puts the whole "human rights" outcry in this country in perspective, don't it?  And just for the record, it's spelled Falun Gong and there was never any Chinese military or police order to "shoot-to-kill" at Falun Gong members.  Or if there was it was never reported by the BBC or noticed by either my Aussie friend who's a Falun Gong organizer in Shanghai or my student friend in Canton.

  As for our ongoing discussion, you really need to stick to discussing the facts.  These lies just aren't cutting it.  Israel NEVER EVER had "P.M. after P.M. trying to exchange land for peace".  Rabin was the only one who even came close to offering a deal that was acceptable to both parties.  Until he was gunned down by...Zionists!  Oh yeah, remember how there is a massive and extrememly violent pro-war movement within Israel?  As for your claim that "Israel has total rights to the land since Palestine's existence as a country seems iffy", my respone is: Ahahahahahahahahhahahaha....haha..goddamn.  Good one.  Whatever dude.  If my house is there and my family is there and my crops are there and my stuff is there it sure seems like it's mine and I don't see any way to justfiy bulldozing houses and burning down Palestinian neighborhoods and then turning around and justfiying it by claiming that there IS no Palestinian state when we all know that there was one until the Brits stole it.  If Poland retained its right to its soverign territory throughout the Russian occupation, than certainly the Palestinian state exists despite the fact that their land is occupied.  Not that I'd expect you to make that kind of mildly complicated historical analogy, since your grasp on world politics and history seems to be informed mostly by lies and propaganda.

  By the way, why is it you keep claiming that it's irrelevant that the United States is the single biggest backer of brutally repressive regimes in the world?  Especially in the context of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, since everyone knows that the Israelis wouldn't last five minutes in a stand-up fight against a serious coalition of Middle Eastern states if it weren't for the billions America spends every year on their defense.  

  A lot of the misconceptions that you've been trotting out are ably dispelled in Avi Shlaim's The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World, which I highly recommend to anyone who shares your rather simplitic and deeply misinformed views about the political and historical facts behind the Palestinian/Israeli crisis.  

  I find it funny, too, that you call Egypt repressive when in fact most of the repression in Egypt is directed at revolutionary Muslim fundamentalists that would like to see Egypt become a Saudi-type theocracy.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Oooooh, inconsistent Mikey: adknowledge your own government's role in horrifying human rights abuses (both directly and indirectly via the many dictatorships we sponsor) before you start trying to step to the Chinese for what they do.

 

 

Oooh, inconsistency. If Arafat can't stop Palestinian suicide bombers, as you claim, how in the heck can we stop dictators from doing what they want?

 

 

 

As a matter of fact, the U.S. imprisons more people per capita than China does, which sort of puts the whole "human rights" outcry in this country in perspective, don't it?

 

 

You seem to be missing the whole "we SHOULDN'T be doing it" line. I don't deny that we DO it---I'm saying we SHOULDN'T do it.

 

 

And just for the record, it's spelled Falun Gong and there was never any Chinese military or police order to "shoot-to-kill" at Falun Gong members.  Or if there was it was never reported by the BBC or noticed by either my Aussie friend who's a Falun Gong organizer in Shanghai or my student friend in Canton.

As for our ongoing discussion, you really need to stick to discussing the facts.  These lies just aren't cutting it.  Israel NEVER EVER had "P.M. after P.M. trying to exchange land for peace".  Rabin was the only one who even came close to offering a deal that was acceptable to both parties.

 

 

Every P.M offered progressively more and more generous deals.

 

What, exactly, did Arafat EVER offer? What did HE offer to give up?

 

Answer? Nothing.

 

Not one thing.

 

He never offered to try and stop the bombers.

 

 

Until he was gunned down by...Zionists!  Oh yeah, remember how there is a massive and extrememly violent pro-war movement within Israel?  As for your claim that "Israel has total rights to the land since Palestine's existence as a country seems iffy", my respone is: Ahahahahahahahahhahahaha....haha..goddamn.  Good one.  Whatever dude.

 

 

Shall we go into how many countries have lost land in wars over the centuries? I suppose any land that Germany has lost since World War II is actually theirs, huh?

 

 

If my house is there and my family is there and my crops are there and my stuff is there it sure seems like it's mine and I don't see any way to justfiy bulldozing houses and burning down Palestinian neighborhoods and then turning around and justfiying it by claiming that there IS no Palestinian state when we all know that there was one until the Brits stole it.

 

 

Shall I break out the violin at this point?

 

Israel was formed because the Jewish people of the world had NO country to call their own. NO country seemed to want them---sadly, including the U.S. So, they had to have a safe haven of their own after being a victim of the greatest atrocity in centuries.

 

And Israel has grown ONLY because the assorted backwards countries in the region have attacked them and, unfortunately for them, LOST the battles.

 

 

If Poland retained its right to its soverign territory throughout the Russian occupation, than certainly the Palestinian state exists despite the fact that their land is occupied.

 

 

Poland wasn't exactly sending out suicide bombers to kill innocents (BTW, nice of them peaceful Palestinians to blow up an Israeli bus this morning). If they had done so, there would have been much less sympathy for them.

 

 

 

Not that I'd expect you to make that kind of mildly complicated historical analogy, since your grasp on world politics and history seems to be informed mostly by lies and propaganda.

 

 

Again, pot meet kettle.

 

 

By the way, why is it you keep claiming that it's irrelevant that the United States is the single biggest backer of brutally repressive regimes in the world?

 

 

Because it has no impact, whatsoever, on the current Israel/Palestinian conflict.

 

 

 

Especially in the context of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, since everyone knows that the Israelis wouldn't last five minutes in a stand-up fight against a serious coalition of Middle Eastern states if it weren't for the billions America spends every year on their defense.

 

 

 

And that is WHY we support them. The Arab countries would attempt to wipe them off the face of the earth the moment we didn't support them.

 

We should defend the only free country in that Godforsaken hellhole.

 

 

 

A lot of the misconceptions that you've been trotting out are ably dispelled in Avi Shlaim's The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World, which I highly recommend to anyone who shares your rather simplitic and deeply misinformed views about the political and historical facts behind the Palestinian/Israeli crisis.

 

 

Well, at least you didn't suggest Said. Or is that recommendation soon coming?

 

 

I find it funny, too, that you call Egypt repressive when in fact most of the repression in Egypt is directed at revolutionary Muslim fundamentalists that would like to see Egypt become a Saudi-type theocracy.

 

 

 

Egypt is every bit as repressive as Iran and the other Muslim-ruled hellholes.

                            -=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

By the way, Hash, if you're going to actually ATTEMPT to claim that the U.S has a worse human rights record than China, then you're too far gone to even bother with.

                                   -=Mike

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

<<Why does Kuwait hate us? Can you explain THAT one away? We only, you know, SAVED THEM. They support Palestine when Arafat, you know, SUPPORTED SADDAM IN THE INVASION OF KUWAIT.

 

Why does Egypt hate us, considering that we give them a ton of money every friggin' year?

 

Why does Saudi Arabia hate us when we're the ones who keep the inept, corrupt Saud family in power?

 

Can you give a logical reason behind their utter disdain for us?>>

 

-I don't how many times Osama has to say that it's OUR MILITARY INFLUENCE IN THE ARAB WORLD that is the main reason for such events as 9/11.  That's the "logical reason" that's been repeated over and over and over again.  That is why a lot of Arab countries who had not gotten along in the past, like Kuwait and Palestine, "hate us" to such a great degree, because now many of these Arab leaders have a common ground to agree on: getting rid of U.S imperialist influences in the Arab world.  I think that's a good thing, as long as it doesn't involve terrorism, but we haven't moved out of our addiction of lobbing bombs at each other yet....

 

 

<<Is it our alliance with Israel?>>

 

Ummm....yes.  Mike, why do you always come off as completely oblivious to why many people in the Arab world detest us?  Is it because you think America is a perfect country that can do no wrong?

 

<<"As if we needed more evidence that Islamic countries have a corrupt, morally repugnant, and just plain stupid religion and culture.  There are times I regret saying we shouldn't just bomb them all into oblivion, and this is one of those times."-Dr.Tom

 

 

Wow, Doc.  Replace Islam with Judaism there, and some may you sound exactly like a Nazi.  I would like for you to explain to me why all of the Islamic world should be bombed into oblivion? Is every person who follows Islam stupid and morally repugnant?

 

 

He didn't say that Muslims were evil or repugnant. However, the governments LED by Muslims ARE evil and repugnant.>>

 

-Well, he should specify that the govt's are the evil ones, an not call for yet another mass bombing campaign against innocent people.  Mike, do not read between the lines there.  I thought Doc was one of the most intelligent people here, so he's the last one I would expect to say something like that.  If you want to excuse any word of his statement, then shame on you and shame on anyone else in this country who wants to bomb anyone into oblivion....

 

<<To paraphrase Jim Cornette>>

 

-Rarely a bad thing

 

<<to compare the evil of the U.S to the evil of Arab regimes is to compare speeding to vehicular homicide.>>

 

-Ah, my naive friend.  You have a lot to learn about how this world works.  The U.S didn't become the dominant superpower in the world by being a nice guy.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<Why does Kuwait hate us? Can you explain THAT one away? We only, you know, SAVED THEM. They support Palestine when Arafat, you know, SUPPORTED SADDAM IN THE INVASION OF KUWAIT.

 

Why does Egypt hate us, considering that we give them a ton of money every friggin' year?

 

Why does Saudi Arabia hate us when we're the ones who keep the inept, corrupt Saud family in power?

 

Can you give a logical reason behind their utter disdain for us?>>

 

-I don't how many times Osama has to say that it's OUR MILITARY INFLUENCE IN THE ARAB WORLD that is the main reason for such events as 9/11.>>

 

 

That's OSAMA'S idiotic reasoning.

 

Why do the Saudis hate us? They could ask us to leave.

Why does Kuwait hate us? Our military is there because of THEIR plight in the first place.

 

These countries, in the end, want all of the economic advantages that having us there brings them---but none of the hardships that us being there will ALSO cause.

 

Besides, it's not like our soldiers are thrilled to be there, either.

 

 

That's the "logical reason" that's been repeated over and over and over again.  That is why a lot of Arab countries who had not gotten along in the past, like Kuwait and Palestine, "hate us" to such a great degree, because now many of these Arab leaders have a common ground to agree on: getting rid of U.S imperialist influences in the Arab world.

 

 

Let's say we pull completely out.

 

Why is there any reason to assume that they'll suddenly STOP hating us?

 

They think we're evil. You can't really negotiate around that one. It's like me.

 

I'm a pro-lifer. I don't want to see abortion made illegal (I'd love it to be "safe, private"---and completely not wanted). No matter how much somebody may try to argue the merits of abortion, in the end, it's murder to me.

 

And thus, I can NEVER support it.

 

If we pull out of the Middle East, they'll hate us because the people are poor and hungry.

 

If we give them money to alleviate this, they'll hate us for spreading our wealth around and to try and corrupt them with it.

 

In the end, they WANT to hate us. The military being there is just a convenient excuse.

 

 

I think that's a good thing, as long as it doesn't involve terrorism, but we haven't moved out of our addiction of lobbing bombs at each other yet....

 

 

 

We didn't initiate this recent thing. We were attacked and we, rightly, are going to make sure that they can't do this to others.

 

 

<<Is it our alliance with Israel?>>

 

Ummm....yes.  Mike, why do you always come off as completely oblivious to why many people in the Arab world detest us?  Is it because you think America is a perfect country that can do no wrong?

 

 

No, it's because their reasons are HORRIBLY irrational. They blast us for giving money to Israel---yet Israel doesn't blast us, in kind, forgiving money to the Muslim governments in the region.

 

Israel is the one free country over there. They DESERVE our support.

 

 

<<"As if we needed more evidence that Islamic countries have a corrupt, morally repugnant, and just plain stupid religion and culture.  There are times I regret saying we shouldn't just bomb them all into oblivion, and this is one of those times."-Dr.Tom

 

 

Wow, Doc.  Replace Islam with Judaism there, and some may you sound exactly like a Nazi.  I would like for you to explain to me why all of the Islamic world should be bombed into oblivion? Is every person who follows Islam stupid and morally repugnant?

 

 

He didn't say that Muslims were evil or repugnant. However, the governments LED by Muslims ARE evil and repugnant.>>

 

-Well, he should specify that the govt's are the evil ones, an not call for yet another mass bombing campaign against innocent people.

 

 

Sadly, it's the only way to do this since these same subhuman thugs who desire protection of the Geneva Conventions, violate them regularly by hiding out amongst the civilians.

 

If the terrorists REALLY want to avoid innocent bloodshed, they should get out of the civilians' areas and fight on their morals.

 

 

Mike, do not read between the lines there.  I thought Doc was one of the most intelligent people here, so he's the last one I would expect to say something like that.  If you want to excuse any word of his statement, then shame on you and shame on anyone else in this country who wants to bomb anyone into oblivion....

 

 

If the choice is MY safety or THEIR safety---I will choose MY safety every single time.

 

 

<<To paraphrase Jim Cornette>>

 

-Rarely a bad thing

 

<<to compare the evil of the U.S to the evil of Arab regimes is to compare speeding to vehicular homicide.>>

 

-Ah, my naive friend.  You have a lot to learn about how this world works.  The U.S didn't become the dominant superpower in the world by being a nice guy.

 

 

No, it didn't.

 

However, unlike the Muslim governments in the Middle East, we've also done good.

 

When you have Kuwait complaining about our support of Israel (failing to notice that they EXIST because we led the charge to make it so) and supporting the Palestinians (who supported Saddam in the conquering of said Kuwaitis), then you have a country of two-faced and quite idiotic leaders.

 

We should pull out and let Saddam overwhelm them. Let them BEG us to help them again.

                                      -=Mike

 

...Then we should refuse and sit back while Iraq unleashes untold atrocities upon them while they bemoan how "evil" we are.