Hhh shouldn't take all of the blame

[Guest]

The following is from another topic....

 

Do any of you honestly think about your responses before you type them? I've never read such ridiculous drivel in my life. The most ridiculous being from L4W, normally a poster not so ignorantly biased on any situation. Even he has now fallen into the pits of redundancy.

 

Well, to put this thread back on track, let me be a voice of reason here. Let me enlighten those that are blinded. This Jericho vs. HHH feud was set to fail from the beginning. Why? Because Jericho was a horrible undisputed champion. Whatever meaning those titles had has been sucked away by the most tepid, botched, and utterly pathetic heel run I have ever witnessed. At least 60% of the blame lies on the WWF's shoulder's for horrible booking and the rest is on Jericho's. The fact of the matter is is that he was not ready.

 

When Jericho won the UC, I was among the people who said this would end horribly. But, many of the smarks didn't look at the situation in the long term, they just creamed their pants because the WWF had given the title to Chris "The Future" Jericho. I knew the situation reeked of desperation.  Jericho was a tweener in a high profile feud with the Rock at this time. And not many people have given the Rock credit for it, but had it not been for him putting Jericho over time and time again, in interviews, skits, and in the ring, Jericho would have had little momentum going into his reign. The odds were already stacked against him as the fans really didn't want to see Jericho win the title at this point. The wanted Austin, The Rock, or even RVD with the title. They were just happy with Jericho slowly climbing that ladder to the top. Of course Jericho won the title. Mistake number 1.

 

Now many say Jericho was booked horribly as the champ. Now, may I refer to one Rock and one Kurt Angle? The Rock was jobbed out to the Bossman and Mark Henry, booked weakly against Mankind and Steve Austin, yet remained a strong heel presence while he held the title.  Jericho on the other hand was put over the Rock FIVE times and every other credible main event/upper mid-card face the WWF could throw at him. Yet, he struggled to draw heat and make the UC mean anything.

 

Let's take a look at Kurt Angle, his four month reign was booked horribly as well. He was basically a lame duck heel champion and I must say that while his reign meant nothing, the title did and he was still able to draw good heel heat. Jericho could not keep the titles meaning anything and his promos were forced and downright pathetic attempts to draw the cheapest heat possible. Im my opinon, Jericho's reign was booked better than heel Kurt's reign because the title was a focus of the show, but because of who wore the title, it was unover. With Kurt, the he and the title were over, but they were rendered meaningless by other feuds at the time.

 

Now, to January 7th 2002. HHH came back to the WWF 3x more over than any face in the company. The crowd ate it up when they teased an Austin/HHH confrontation. They even were eager to see a HHH/Kurt angle confrontation. Especially now that Angle had gotten his heat back by interrupting a HHH return speech, the fans wanted to see Angle get his ass kicked and they wanted to see HHH do it. Of course, the WWF being the WWF they decided why do that when they can have HHH in a program with unover heel champ Chris Jericho? And so they did.

 

Now before I continue, let me say this. HHH should not have been put in a program with anyone sans Kurt or Austin without another face along with him. Face HHH was unproven, yet HUGELY over at the time of his return so the WWF thought that he could maintain that HUGE heat by himself. They should have had him team with the Rock so he could get more comfortable in his face role and feud with the Rock's Opponent of the Week. But hindsight is 20/20.

 

Now, I guess the WWF's logic was that HHH would somehow get Jericho some extra heel heat. And in a way, that's what happened. But, it took alot longer than the WWF thought and it happened in a way I'm sure they didn't imagine.

 

Now some may call Test a heat leech, but Jericho is the real heat leech. HHH's pops didn't start to decrease significantly until he was programed against Jericho. Jericho's heat started to INCREASE when he was programed with HHH although this took time. Then Jericho got a real Godsend in the form of Steph and his heat increased exponetially. He was now getting the reaction the UC champ sould get. Of course, by then it was too late. HHH was the 3rd most over face in the company and Jericho had already ruined the titles. The fued was dead in the water.

 

And now I see all of you blaming old HHH for the whole thing. But really, HHH has gained nothing from this. He was booked badly just like everyone else in the company yet he's fucking the "head booker." What's wrong with this? In fact HHH came out looking the worst in all of this. Let's take a look at what everyone gained from this fiasco.....

 

HHH

-The only thing he gained was the UC title, but that's worthless after Jericho's abortion of a heel reign. Basically HHH was booked as weak in this fued hurting his long term credibility. He didn't really have any dominance in the feud until he won the titles last night. But as I said they're basically nothing right now.

 

Jericho

-Basically dominated the fued

-Stole HHH's girl

-Beat up HHH on numerous occasions leading into the biggest PPV of the year.

-Humiliated HHH

-Came out looking stronger in the fued.

 

Steph

-Got to be the top heel.

 

So really, who's worse off? I can't put any of the blame on HHH. He basically did all he could do with a bad storyline and a medicore champion to feud with. I do blame Jericho because he could have done better, but he did try very hard. Most of the blame goes to the WWF creative and booking staff.

 

Here's what should have happened....

 

-Steve Austin should have stayed heel and won the UC title.

-Jericho turns heel and feuds with the Rock

-HHH feuds with Austin upon his return.

-HHH wins title at WM

-Jericho in the meantime is in a hot feud with the Rock and/or Hogan while teaming with the NWO.

-HHH and Rock form occasional alliances to battle NWO and Jericho.

-HHH and Jericho start program in the spring.

-HHH drops title to now mega-heel Jericho at SS.

-Jericho drops title to Rock at WM.

 

Oh well. So much of that. You know what's ironic? The first time the WWF books a smark favorite to take the ball and run with, it turns into an abomination. Perhaps the community is not as smart is it makes itself out to be. Who knows.

[Guest Ihatesmarksandmarks]

i still dont get how jerichos heat increased after joining up with steph....i dont get who this is a good thing for him. I dont get how jericho running erands and being a lackey to steph gives him ANY heel cred. I dont get how steph doing all the talking for him gives him any chance to advance his chracter. I dont see how a HHH-jericho feud without steph could have have been ANY worse.....it may have stil bombed, who knows, but id give it a better chance than they gave it with steph.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

As I see it...Jericho was over as a heel at the Rumble when he face the Rock.

 

He was over as a heel leading into No Way Out against Austin...

 

then he became Stephs lackey...crushed all his heat...and the rest is history.

 

If HHH isn't to blame...why was Jericho over with everyone else?

 

And if HHH isn't over...he probably shouldn't be ending WrestleMania winning the title.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

And how come HHH wasn't over when he was facing Angle, or when he went head to head with Austin at the Rumble?

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

You must have missed that part Rasmus...

 

HHH wasn't over all those other times because he was secretly feuding with Jericho all along...just not on TV or anything.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

"You must have missed that part Rasmus...

 

HHH wasn't over all those other times because he was secretly feuding with Jericho all along...just not on TV or anything. "

 

Got it.  I can't wait for this guy's explanation on why Test is so incredibly over.

[Guest KoR Fungus]

Jericho was totally over as a tweener around No Mercy and then as a heel going into Vengeance.  They messed up the first couple weeks of his UC reign, but his respect promo got his heat back going into RR.  He only really started to lose his heat once he got into the feud with Trip.  I'll admit that Austin and NWO and being second fiddle to the nWo didn't help him any, but he had fine heat coming out of NWO.  It only really started to die once he got involved with Stephanie and became the whipping boy in the Steph/Trip feud.  I say Steph deserves about 75% of the blame for that, and Trip the other 25%.

 

As for Trip, you act like his first feud back was against Jericho.  It wasn't.  His first feud back was against Angle, and they feuded all the way from Trip's return until NWO.  Trip's heat went down steadily during that time, and that's against one of the heels that you said would be an ideal match.  The blame for that lays entirely on Trip's shoulders, as Jericho wasn't even in the picture.

[Guest One Bad Apple]

I disagree.  If K-Kwik could do some #### good spots when they actually let him.  He was pretty over for a while, too, because he was the only guy doing that stuff at the time.

[Guest Brian]

If anything, final blame will always lay upon the shoulders of Vince McMahon and the booking team.

 

1. Vengeance - I made the initial point day of that Jericho should have been given at least one clean victory. Most likely, against Rock via pass-out which would have given him some credibility. Nonetheless, putting a fresh, new title on a freshly turned, green to the main event, un-credible heel was not a good idea.

 

2. January 7th - They blew the Triple H return. They should have kept it simple. The video laid it out perfectly. Triple H was out for eight months. He worked his ass off to put himself in position where he could be as good as he was before. He was injured by Chris Jericho. Jericho has the title. He comes full circle.

 

3. WrestleMania Build - Should have focused on the Treiple H/Jericho storyline and the title. Steph would have worked fine as a side-bar. They needed more of what they did in the last show.

 

 

These are only a few points but I don't see how blame could go any other way.

[Guest The Man in Blak]

Honestly, I felt Jericho was doing great until the moment that Stephanie McMahon came into the picture.  He was over as a cocky heel, he had taken it to Austin (he beat the guy with one of his own beer coolers, for the luvagawd) and then they paired him with Stephanie in one of the most blatant character homicides in the WWF in the last five years.  Jericho and Steph hate each other (especially since Ross tells us so every time they're on TV) - but there is NO resolution.  Face Jericho made his living off of verbally dressing down Steph, and now Heel Jericho is just going to all of a sudden let her order him around?  No wonder the fans lost hope.

 

As far as Triple H is concerned, I personally think all the talk of him being not over is just a little stilted.  In comparison to Rock, Austin, and (yes) even Rob Van Dam, Triple H doesn't have quite the same pop factor.  Of course, he's doesn't get the same pop as they do - Rock's a crossover superstar, Austin's the definitive character of the attitude era (and the inventor of "what"), and Rob Van Dam is the hottest thing in the WWF since sliced bread.  But people did pop for his entrance and for particular parts in his interview.  If there's any indication of the fact that he's over, at least the people didn't chant "what?" while he was talking - that's usually a pretty good indication that you're either not over or you're Kurt Angle.  There once was a time in interviews where not every single thing you said was cheered, and Triple H's non-catchphrase strewn interview style (other than "I am the game, and that #### good", there's nothing) fits perfectly into that style.  What you guys keep saying is the equivalent of saying that when Benoit and Malenko go 15 minutes in front of a redneck crowd at Road Wild that sits on their hands, it's a BAD match because there's no crowd heat.  It's a little unexciting in comparison with the Rock making fun of Scott Hall and Austin singing the Beverly Hillbillies, but Triple H has his own particular niche in interview style.

 

And you say why does Trips have the title?  Well, who the #### else is going to have it?  Rock and Austin (in particular) have been all over the title for the last year, and Triple H as a face has not.  RVD can't be pushed up there - he's still got dues left to pay.  When Triple H came back, he was the best available guy that they had to put into world championship contention and yes, that does mean putting him over Jericho.  People were a little skeptical (and rightly so) of him after his injury, so he's got to go over somebody to make him convincing and if it means putting him over the first undisputed champion in North American wrestling history, then so be it.  We all eulogize about Jericho, but judging by his assault on the fan earlier in the Raw, he's still got enough scathing heel personality to be all right...as long as he doesn't keep calling everybody "Junior."  Jericho will go down as the undisputed champion and now he has a little bit of time to do a little bit of character resurrection and hopefully get away from Stephanie.  And while he's doing that, Triple H can still have his spot up top.

 

This has been kind of a beleagured (sp?) rant and I've been typing it between two phone calls so I hope it makes sense or is even still relevant, but I really think that at least some of it needed to be said.  

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I always wondered if HHH walks around the back calling RVD something like...kid.

 

Because he's the new guy...

 

I find that funny because Van Dam debuted in the business before HHH did.

 

As far as the title goes...let HHH have the #### thing...but not at WrestleMania.

 

WrestleMania is supposed to be the show where the most over guy in the company walks out with the belt.  That's why Mania 2000 was such a shock....cause it didn't happen.  

 

HHH certainly doesn't fit that category in 2002.

 

Had they held off until Backlash HHH would still be champion...it would have given him another month to get over and shape up...and it certainly couldn't have hurt Jericho.

[Guest The Man in Blak]

Well, given all the hot-shotting and panicking the WWF was doing as far as ratings, they kind of booked themselves into a corner for one.  That, and they kind of overestimated Triple H's sympathy heat for his injury...but I still think he deserved the slot, given what they had to work with.

 

Out of curiosity, what are the dates for RVD and Triple H breaking into the business?

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

According to my handy PWI almanac...

 

HHH was March of 92

 

and RVD was June of 91

[Guest The Man in Blak]

Interesting.  Of course, Trips would probably consider most of RVD's experience in the "bush leagues", as Trip has spent most of '95 on in the big two.  *sigh*

[Guest teke184]

And yet Angle of all people was bitching (through his WIFE) about how RVD was "too new" and "wasn't ready".  Pretty funny from a guy who started wrestling professionally in 98 or 99.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Oh I would agree with HHH that RVD needs to pay his dues in the WWF.

 

Without question.

 

If Booker is pushed down the card coming from WCW...then RVD should be no different, no matter how over he is.

 

I think that RVD is exactly where he should be right at this moment.

 

The most over person in the midcard, holding the midcard belt.

 

It's up to RVD to stay over and further adapt to the WWF style and work on his promos (if given time) to deserve a push to the next level.

[Guest The Man in Blak]

Yeah, that is kind of funny about Kurt.  I think Angle was more than a little bitter for being bopped by RVD, though, so it probably clouded his judgement just a little.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

The Angle thing I don't really know what to think.

 

I always remember him on Tough Enough looking embarrassed when asked how you shortcut your way to the top.

 

I always looked at Angle as an anomoly.

 

Although I feel that he did get too much too soon (and it started to cost him late last year/early this year...before he righted himself) He did already have half the battle won....

 

Half the battle is making a name for yourself.

 

Angle already had that.

 

And he did accomplish the other parts (get over...be good) very quickly.

 

If Angle hadn't been a rookie (as far as WWF tv goes anyway)...I think his title reign could have been huge.

 

And I think he got too much too soon...but earned it...if that makes sense...

[Guest BA_Baracus]

Bullshit.

 

Y2J was ready a *year* before he won the belts.

 

It was the WWF's piss poor booking that did him in.  Not only was it bad, but the purposefly went out of their way to make him look as shitty as they possibly could.

 

In my opinion Y2J was at least twice as good a heel champ as Austin was the previous year...

[Guest muzanisa]

I agree that Steph killed Jericho's heat. The funny thing is that should have been great as it looked like they'd been building it really slowly and subtly for two years. If they had turned Steph in a match costing HHH the title revealing that Jericho had been doing her behind HHH's back for a while then that IMO would have gotten him super over.

Instead they have a chat saying they should work together despite hating each other after HHH dumped her. One week later Jericho is her lackey.

It seems that if you're given the belt and don't pop ratings immediately you get the blame and one of the Big boys get it back. The last two guys who were pushed and pushed and pushed were Big Show who never made it and HHH who was over as a Heel but is weak as a face.

[Guest Mystery Eskimo]

I always wondered if HHH walks around the back calling RVD something like...kid.

I would bet serious money that he does.

 

And that he makes younger wrestlers call him Mr. Leveque (sp?). Or Sir.

[Guest]

According to my handy PWI almanac...

 

HHH was March of 92

 

and RVD was June of 91

And just to point out an interesting sidenote to this entire topic

 

Chris "Jericho" Irvine debuted professionally on October 2, 1990

 

2 years before HHH, and almost a full year before Rob Van Dam. RVD is in the right place, and Jericho toiled for years in WCW and ECW before coming to the WWF in 1999.

 

I will say this, however. Initially, I was REALLY pissed off that Kurt Angle won the title and the huge push before Chris Jericho did. We all remember that day when HHH was beat by a screwy finish in April 2000, only to have the decision reversed by Hebner? Sometimes I wish that would never have been reversed, becuase Jericho (I think, anyways) was more over as a face than he is now as a heel.

When he came into the WWF however, people wanted to cheer him no matter what, look at that feud with that ugly bitch Chyna. He smashed her hand with a hammer for cryin out loud and everyone popped!

 

In conclusion, the WWF has succeeded in making everyone not care about Jericho. Now, in my opinion, Jericho needs to feud with an up-and-comer or an established main eventer, since with HHH it's just a cold fued and it'll get to the point of the Regal feud.