Bush and God

[Guest Silence]

Racism doesn't unite America, but neither does Religion.

32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. 34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36 and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.' Matthew 10

 

Unfortunatly you are right.

[cawthon777 0]

Well, one (religion) is a good thing

That's debatable.

 

Also his religious affiliation is irrelevent, it's his mingling of religion and governing that pisses others off.

1) By religion I don't mean something that's forced upon you by a church. I'm saying a belief in a higher power or some sort of spiritual faith. I don't see how that can be a bad thing.

 

2) Presidents have incorporated religion into their polocies for ... since the whole America thing started. "In God We Trust", "Under God...", etc. He's not breaking any new ground here.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

1) By religion I don't mean something that's forced upon you by a church. I'm saying a belief in a higher power or some sort of spiritual faith. I don't see how that can be a bad thing.

And I still disagree. Religion is a bad thing IMHO because people take their bonds to it so seriously.

 

Religion is what drove the hijackers to fly planes into the WTC. Do you agree? And if you say "No, Osama is what drove them to do that" keep in mind OBL's goal (which is pretty close to becoming realized anymore): To start a holy war between the Islamic world and the rest of civilization.

 

2) Presidents have incorporated religion into their polocies for ... since the whole America thing started.  "In God We Trust",  "Under God...", etc.  He's not breaking any new ground here.

 

The thing is that nobody in recent memory has shouted out about it as much as he has.

[Guest JMA]

Religion can be both a good thing and a bad thing. It can inspire people to do good or evil. I'm an atheist myself. I feel we will one day live in a world without religion, a better world IMO, but I don't think the current human race is ready for that. Perhaps one day.

[cawthon777 0]

And I still disagree. Religion is a bad thing IMHO because people take their bonds to it so seriously.

 

Religion is what drove the hijackers to fly planes into the WTC. Do you agree? And if you say "No, Osama is what drove them to do that" keep in mind OBL's goal (which is pretty close to becoming realized anymore): To start a holy war between the Islamic world and the rest of civilization.

 

2) Presidents have incorporated religion into their polocies for ... since the whole America thing started.  "In God We Trust",  "Under God...", etc.  He's not breaking any new ground here.

 

The thing is that nobody in recent memory has shouted out about it as much as he has.

Religion cannot be faulted for that. Try blaming the people instead. Religion simply provides something to believe in, it doesn't mean it's going to cause the world to go all homicidal. Anything can be a religion - it doesn't have to be Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. Let's say that wrestling is my religion (and technically it can be) and that Chris Benoit is my savior. What's the harm? ...At least my make believe higher power is still alive.

 

Well damn recent memory. Someone should tell Bush to shut up since he's so different and what not.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Ever heard of messianic Jews? I don't buy in to things said by Paul/Saul or people after Joshua died. I just find it offensive when someone says a lot of good people will burn forever for no other reason than not believing something. It just seems like a way to scare people into believing. I like Jesus Christ, but only as a philosopher and in a secular way.

 

I just don't feel people who think everyone who disagrees with them will burn in hell should be called "Christians." People who follow the example set forth by Jesus are the only ones who deserve the title of Christian. And let me say this, I have Christian friends and none of them think gays are evil or that pagans go to hell. Hell, some of them don't even believe in Hell.

 

I disagree with them about Christ being YHWH incarnate, but I respect their beliefs.

You can find that belief offensive all you wish --- it is a major tenet in Christianity --- that God sent His son to Earth and those that choose to follow will be redeemed and those that do not will not be redeemed (admission to Heaven is a gift from God --- one cannot enter it simply because they did "good" on Earth). Does it mean that Jews are bad? Absolutely not.

 

Christians are taught that they can hate the SIN (in the example you stated, homosexuality) and love the sinner. I can find homosexuality abhorrent. I can find abortion abhorrent.

 

It does not mean I hate those that have committed those sins. I love them like brothers and can only hope that they see the truth before it is too late. I can disapprove of their ACTIONS and not hold a negative view of THEM.

-=Mike -- Who loathes hypocritical Christians

[Guest EricMM]

But what if their actions, (in the case of Homosexuality) somewhat defines them?

[Guest TheMikeSC]

But what if their actions, (in the case of Homosexuality) somewhat defines them?

If whom you have sex with defines you, then you aren't a person. Hate to be blunt, but that is the way it is. I'm heterosexual, but that doesn't begin to define me as a person in any way, shape, or form.

 

There are SO many other aspects in life that define a person besides with whom they achieve orgasms.

-=Mike --- Who subscribes to Dennis Miller's philosophy "Racism is stupid. If you want to hate somebody, look for a little while and you'll find a valid reason to."

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Let's say that wrestling is my religion (and technically it can be) and that Chris Benoit is my savior.  What's the harm?  ...At least my make believe higher power is still alive.

The difference is that you're going on about your own proclaimed "make believe higher power." In the case of the major religions, people actually believe these things are true. I don't know if you've noticed, but you can make comments about someone's race or age or what have you, but nothing spurs more violence than religion.

 

Millions of people have all died in this neverending battle to see who's god has the bigger dick. And normally, if a bunch of religious people want to get together and off each other, I'm not a guy to complain. But now it's costing us innocent lives, such as the Islamic terrorism factions.

 

And the fundies and hardliners? Forget it. In your wrestling example, that would be akin to throwing a grenade through the window of the guy who says that HHH is his god.

[cawthon777 0]

Millions of people have all died in this neverending battle to see who's god has the bigger dick. And normally, if a bunch of religious people want to get together and off each other, I'm not a guy to complain. But now it's costing us innocent lives, such as the Islamic terrorism factions.

Well there are a few bad seeds in every religion - doesn't mean that all religion everywhere is bad.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

Let's say that wrestling is my religion (and technically it can be) and that Chris Benoit is my savior.  What's the harm?  ...At least my make believe higher power is still alive.

The difference is that you're going on about your own proclaimed "make believe higher power." In the case of the major religions, people actually believe these things are true. I don't know if you've noticed, but you can make comments about someone's race or age or what have you, but nothing spurs more violence than religion.

 

Millions of people have all died in this neverending battle to see who's god has the bigger dick. And normally, if a bunch of religious people want to get together and off each other, I'm not a guy to complain. But now it's costing us innocent lives, such as the Islamic terrorism factions.

 

And the fundies and hardliners? Forget it. In your wrestling example, that would be akin to throwing a grenade through the window of the guy who says that HHH is his god.

To me, what you describe isn't religion. It's perversion.

[Guest JMA]

Religion is a concept created by man. In a sense, it's not real (seeing as all ideas are intangible).

[Guest SP-1]

Religion is a concept created by man. In a sense, it's not real (seeing as all ideas are intangible).

Yes. Religion, a set of strict rules and beliefs, are generally man-created things. However, Christ opposed people getting so wrapped up in following the rules that they forgot about the living God that should be the focus in the first place. That's why he found himself set against the Jews, and it played a part in the political plays that led to his crucifiction, at least insofar as Earthly matters go. Christianity iself should never be placed in the same realm as most other "Religions" for in the end it's simply knowing Christ. It's a saving relationship of grace by faith in Christ. How you live, your morality, grows out of that relationship as God works in your heart through His spirit and His word and just daily living and experience itself. Christian ceremony is generally celebrations or somber rememberance but play no part in salvation itself.

 

So yes, man-made religiosity generally doesn't get you anywhere. But Knowing Christ is an entirely different ball game altogether.

[Guest JMA]

Yes. Religion, a set of strict rules and beliefs, are generally man-created things. However, Christ opposed people getting so wrapped up in following the rules that they forgot about the living God that should be the focus in the first place. That's why he found himself set against the Jews, and it played a part in the political plays that led to his crucifiction, at least insofar as Earthly matters go. Christianity iself should never be placed in the same realm as most other "Religions" for in the end it's simply knowing Christ. It's a saving relationship of grace by faith in Christ. How you live, your morality, grows out of that relationship as God works in your heart through His spirit and His word and just daily living and experience itself. Christian ceremony is generally celebrations or somber rememberance but play no part in salvation itself.

 

So yes, man-made religiosity generally doesn't get you anywhere. But Knowing Christ is an entirely different ball game altogether.

Yes. As a former Christian I already know that. You consider it a faith, not a religion. With that being said, organisations like the Catholic Church would be considered religions.

[Guest SP-1]

Yes. As a former Christian I already know that. You consider it a faith, not a religion. With that being said, organisations like the Catholic Church would be considered religions.

Aye. It appears that way to me as well. I'm never quite sure what to make of the Catholic structure or it's eternal ramifications. It's something I look forward to learning about at college.

[Guest JMA]

Aye. It appears that way to me as well. I'm never quite sure what to make of the Catholic structure or it's eternal ramifications. It's something I look forward to learning about at college.

Same here. I think Tom knows a lot about it.

[Guest Brian]

It's strange because if you look at people considered reformists (Jesus in Judaism, Luther in Christianity), their intent was not to creat ac whole new following but to reform the one they were apart of.

[Guest JMA]

It's strange because if you look at people considered reformists (Jesus in Judaism, Luther in Christianity), their intent was not to creat ac whole new following but to reform the one they were apart of.

You're right there. Christianity did, after all, start as a sect of Judaism. My personal faith would be my atheism.

[Guest SP-1]

It's strange because if you look at people considered reformists (Jesus in Judaism, Luther in Christianity), their intent was not to creat ac whole new following but to reform the one they were apart of.

In a sense, Jesus was out to do something totally different. Merely reforming Judaism would have meant conforming to similar rules and religious tenets. In most areas, Christ bypassed the Mosaic laws because of Grace.

[Guest JMA]

In a sense, Jesus was out to do something totally different. Merely reforming Judaism would have meant conforming to similar rules and religious tenets. In most areas, Christ bypassed the Mosaic laws because of Grace.

Judaism was founded on religious tenets (such as the Ten Commandments).

[Guest SP-1]

In a sense, Jesus was out to do something totally different.  Merely reforming Judaism would have meant conforming to similar rules and religious tenets.  In most areas, Christ bypassed the Mosaic laws because of Grace.

Judaism was founded on religious tenets (such as the Ten Commandments).

. . . yes. Yes it was. I didn't dispute that in my post at all so I fail to see your point. The Ten Commandments fall under Mosaic Law. However, failing to follow the Law to a T. doesn't mean a Christian loses salvation in Christ. Salvation is complete and eternal, as Christ bypassed the Law in His work on the Cross and subsequent Ressurection. The Law is still an excellent guide for moral living, and we should certainly endeavor to follow it but it has little to do with salvation itself now (which is the major issue that Christ and his changes dealt with).

 

So my point still stands.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Well, I know that saying all religious folks are suicide bombers waiting to happen is like saying that all gay people are the hairy men in leather dancing up Fourth Street. It's not true and it's a really bad generalization.

 

I don't automatically hate religious people. I'm a little wary of them on religious topics, much as how like I don't want to be around someone if they're smoking, but I won't dismiss someone just because of that. It's once they try and influence their religious position on me, or try and judge me for whatever reason (and yes, that includes sexuality) where I start to get offended.

 

Again, I've had my own personal experiences with those who choose to not only follow the faith but also the practice. I sat down and tried to think for a month of how I could best describe religion, and the best phrase I could think of was "mind poison." However, if you want to be religious, hey, fine with me. Just don't BUTT in on my life or expect me to support it.

 

The "supporting it" part, btw, is where I draw a huge line with this faith-based organization shit of Bush's. (he said, vainly trying to steer this conversation on-topic before he goes.)

[Guest JMA]

Yes, I do find an increasing number of religious people feeling the need to judge others. This is one of the reasons I stopped being a Christian: hypocrisy (and I stopped believing in God).

[Guest SP-1]

Yes, I do find an increasing number of religious people feeling the need to judge others. This is one of the reasons I stopped being a Christian: hypocrisy (and I stopped believing in God).

Just be careful not to judge all Christians by that hypocritical experience. For then you become a hypocrit yourself by judging because you were insulted that you were judged.

[Guest JMA]

Just be careful not to judge all Christians by that hypocritical experience. For then you become a hypocrit yourself by judging because you were insulted that you were judged.

I don't judge all Christians the same. Far from it. And it isn't just some Christians that judge others. Other religious people do it as well.

[Guest SP-1]

Just be careful not to judge all Christians by that hypocritical experience.  For then you become a hypocrit yourself by judging because you were insulted that you were judged.

I don't judge all Christians the same. Far from it. And it isn't just some Christians that judge others. Other religious people do it as well.

Aye. Which is why I don't like legalism in matters of faith. It's very easy to breed arrogance and the exile of people that should be helped and loved when you bind yourself to a strict system of rules and regulations.

[Guest JMA]

Aye. Which is why I don't like legalism in matters of faith. It's very easy to breed arrogance and the exile of people that should be helped and loved when you bind yourself to a strict system of rules and regulations.

Have you ever noticed the similarity between the Pope and the Pharoah?

[Guest SP-1]

Aye.  Which is why I don't like legalism in matters of faith.  It's very easy to breed arrogance and the exile of people that should be helped and loved when you bind yourself to a strict system of rules and regulations.

Have you ever noticed the similarity between the Pope and the Pharoah?

My lack of dealing with Catholocism leaves me at an admitted disadvantage with matters of the Pope. I haven't dealt much with any Old Testament stuff with Pharoah other than the basic stuff. So that's one I haven't ever really put together.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

Aye.  Which is why I don't like legalism in matters of faith.  It's very easy to breed arrogance and the exile of people that should be helped and loved when you bind yourself to a strict system of rules and regulations.

Have you ever noticed the similarity between the Pope and the Pharoah?

Let's hear it....

[Guest JMA]

Let's hear it....

First off, I know you're Catholic. Based on that anything I say will either piss you off or make you hostile towards me. So, I guess you'll quote section of what I say and post under them. Alright then. Let's get started. The Pharoah was considered to be the so-called "god-king" of Egypt. People thought he had direct descendance from Ra himself (the all-powerful Egyptian god, most often represented by the sun). The Pope is not considered to be descended from YHWH, but he is thought by a lot of Catholics in Vatican city to be divinely chosen. Speaking of Vatican City, the Pope is looked on by some as the true authority of the city.

 

He could be looked on as a king. If you know Middle Ages history you know that there were many conflicts between who had authority over the people: Pope or king. But that's neither here nor there. Let us look now at the crowns. The crown symbolised the divinity of the Pharoah. Likewise the Pope's crown shows his favoristism by YHWH. Not to mention they both use religion to control others. I suppose you wish to deny this now.

 

Go ahead.