The historical Jesus

[Guest JMA]

Have you ever wanted to see a non faith based biography of the man known as Jesus Christ? If you're an atheist (like myself) or an agnostic, chances are you have. Here is a site exploring the historical Jesus.

 

The Historical Jesus

[Guest SP-1]

Rest assured, I will tackle these "inconsistencies" as he calls them, as best as I can. It bugs the hell out of me when people take verses and scenarios out of context, which is likely what he's done.

 

I would ask this though: If this is such a profound and enlightening thing, why is he posting it on a small scale website and not offering it to the world at large?

 

I also fail see the point of this, Dreamer. other than to stir shat around here and see what agitations you can incite. But that's within your rights, though you shan't get a full on war out of me. It's useless. I'll shoot down what I can when i get the time.

[Guest JMA]

Rest assured, I will tackle these "inconsistencies" as he calls them, as best as I can. It bugs the hell out of me when people take verses and scenarios out of context, which is likely what he's done.

 

I would ask this though: If this is such a profound and enlightening thing, why is he posting it on a small scale website and not offering it to the world at large?

 

I also fail see the point of this, Dreamer. other than to stir shat around here and see what agitations you can incite. But that's within your rights, though you shan't get a full on war out of me. It's useless. I'll shoot down what I can when i get the time.

You misunderstand. This thread is for atheists, agnostics, and those who don't believe in the religious Jesus. It is not meant to stir up anything. Nor do I want to start anything. I did, however, know I would get posts like this. I don't want you to shoot down anything. This is not a religious debate and WILL NOT be treated as such. Clear? This is a thread discussing the historical Jesus in a secular way.

[Guest SP-1]

Am i to let what I percieve to be untruths be perpetuated about my savior then?

[Guest JMA]

Am i to let what I percieve to be untruths be perpetuated about my savior then?

Of course not. I just don't want it to get in the way of my thread. If it isn't too much trouble could you do it somewhere else?

[Guest SP-1]

If it gets deep in here, don't think I won't step in. But ok.

[Guest Silence]

Jesus was born in Bethlem, and was a happy baby. He then was taken to Egypt for a little while, then onto Nazareth. Being God the Son, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, He had to unfortunatly sacrifice Himself for sin. Though He died on that hill called calvary, He rose from the dead three days latter. And 40 days latter He ascended to the right hand of the Father.

He is coming back to reign on the throne of David for a thousand years. After that, He will burn all the elements and create a new heaven and new earth. He will judge the living and the dead. He created history, for He has created all things.

[Guest JMA]

Jesus was born in Bethlem, and was a happy baby. He then was taken to Egypt for a little while, then onto Nazareth. Being God the Son, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, He had to unfortunatly sacrifice Himself for sin. Though He died on that hill called calvary, He rose from the dead three days latter. And 40 days latter He ascended to the right hand of the Father.

He is coming back to reign on the throne of David for a thousand years. After that, He will burn all the elements and create a new heaven and new earth. He will judge the living and the dead. He created history, for He has created all things.

Take it somewhere else, Silence. This is a non religious thread.

[Guest treble charged]

You can't tell people what they can and can't post, man.

[Guest JMA]

You can't tell people what they can and can't post, man.

I'm not trying to. But would you like someone getting off topic in one of YOUR threads?

[Guest Silence]

Take it somewhere else, Silence. This is a non religious thread.

The heading of this thread says, "The historical Jesus". I am speaking of the historical Jesus.

[Guest Edwin MacPhisto]

Dreamer, while I agree that Silence's blanket statement isn't exactly the best defense, you can't start a thread with ties to religion, be they tertiary or not, and not expect people to share a religious insight.

 

There's a religious studies course at my university called The Historical Jesus, and I am mad, mad interested in taking it. Basically, you study the New Testament in concordance with historical texts, mythology, and approach the Jesus story/myth/history from all sorts of different angles. It just seems astoundingly interesting.

 

I may not be the most devout religion guy, but I will say that Christianity pretty damn neat to study, whether you believe in it or not.

[Guest JMA]

The heading of this thread says, "The historical Jesus". I am speaking of the historical Jesus.

You're speaking of the Jesus presented in the Bible. I'm speaking of Jesus in a historical perspective in which people who are NOT Christians can agree on. I'm trying to find common ground here.

[Guest JMA]

Dreamer, while I agree that Silence's blanket statement isn't exactly the best defense, you can't start a thread with ties to religion, be they tertiary or not, and not expect people to share a religious insight.

 

There's a religious studies course at my university called The Historical Jesus, and I am mad, mad interested in taking it. Basically, you study the New Testament in concordance with historical texts, mythology, and approach the Jesus story/myth/history from all sorts of different angles. It just seems astoundingly interesting.

 

I may not be the most devout religion guy, but I will say that Christianity pretty damn neat to study, whether you believe in it or not.

I guess it was pretty unrealistic of me to expect to have a secular discussion of the man known as Jesus Christ.

[Guest Silence]

1 And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. 2 This census first took place while Quirinius was governing Syria. 3 So all went to be registered, everyone to his own city. 4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, 5 to be registered with Mary, his betrothed wife, who was with child. 6 So it was, that while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered. 7 And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. Luke 2

 

Here is some pretty good history.

[Guest SP-1]

Generally, of the synoptic gospels, Luke is the place to look for a "breakdown" and facts and figures. IIRC, Luke was a very educated man and tended to write as such. If you're looking for a "commonground" Luke and the book of Acts (Also thought to be written by Luke) are likely good places in the gospel itself.

[Guest JMA]

Generally, of the synoptic gospels, Luke is the place to look for a "breakdown" and facts and figures. IIRC, Luke was a very educated man and tended to write as such. If you're looking for a "commonground" Luke and the book of Acts (Also thought to be written by Luke) are likely good places in the gospel itself.

Yes, but I'm mostly looking for things that are not based in Christian theology. As a former Christian I have read Luke.

[Guest Silence]

1 Then the whole multitude of them arose and led Him to Pilate. 2 And they began to accuse Him, saying, "We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, saying that He Himself is Christ, a King." 3 Then Pilate asked Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?" He answered him and said, "It is as you say." 4 So Pilate said to the chief priests and the crowd, "I find no fault in this Man." 5 But they were the more fierce, saying, "He stirs up the people, teaching throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee to this place." 6 When Pilate heard of Galilee, he asked if the Man were a Galilean. 7 And as soon as he knew that He belonged to Herod's jurisdiction, he sent Him to Herod, who was also in Jerusalem at that time. Luke 23

 

In 1963 they found an engraved cornerstone with Pontius Pilates name written on it.

[Guest SP-1]

Ah, but you're looking at it from a biased perspective. Jesus the man is one sided. Jesus the Christ is one sided. Even Christians know that. He was fully both, or he was incapable of doing what He did as far as the work of salvation. The middleground between the two was Christ, and finding a middleground is how ANY person must be understood. The Bible, though a spiritual work, still has alot of historical facts in it. Luke and Acts are two of the books that lean towards that "breakdown" style of relaying historical information.

[Guest JMA]

Well, if anything else he'll bump my thread a lot.

 

[Guest DrTom]

This thread is a perfect example of why a folder dedicated to religion would have been a dreadful idea.

[Guest MrRant]

Personally I think Dreamer is just being an ass. Ignore what he is saying and talk with those that are debating the topic in the way you want to. Simple, effective and plus it makes you out not to look like a complete asshole.

[Guest JMA]

Personally I think Dreamer is just being an ass. Ignore what he is saying and talk with those that are debating the topic in the way you want to. Simple, effective and plus it makes you out not to look like a complete asshole.

Well, believe that if you want, but I'm not. I simply started a thread about a man I admire. That's all.

[Guest Ace309]

I'd be remiss if I didn't link to Atheists For Jesus.

[Guest JMA]

I'd be remiss if I didn't link to Atheists For Jesus.

Cool site, Ace.

[Guest LooseCannon]

Rest assured, I will tackle these "inconsistencies" as he calls them, as best as I can.  It bugs the hell out of me when people take verses and scenarios out of context, which is likely what he's done. 

 

I would ask this though:  If this is such a profound and enlightening thing, why is he posting it on a small scale website and not offering it to the world at large?

 

I also fail see the point of this, Dreamer.  other than to stir shat around here and see what agitations you can incite.  But that's within your rights, though you shan't get a full on war out of me.  It's useless.  I'll shoot down what I can when i get the time.

You misunderstand. This thread is for atheists, agnostics, and those who don't believe in the religious Jesus. It is not meant to stir up anything. Nor do I want to start anything. I did, however, know I would get posts like this. I don't want you to shoot down anything. This is not a religious debate and WILL NOT be treated as such. Clear? This is a thread discussing the historical Jesus in a secular way.

Personally, I'd like to hear what SP has to say about this. I'm usually not a big fan of the religion threads, but I don't understand what the point of this thread is, if we're not going to discuss what the guy is saying, and to me, discussing what the guy is saying involves people refuting his points. I understand it might be time-consuming for SP to go the trouble, so if he doesn't feel like it, it's fine with me. But I would like to see someone address the text in a meaningful way.

[Guest Silence]

As regards the Roman rule, matters had greatly changed for the worse since the mild sway of Augustus, under which, in the language of Philo, no one throughout the Empire dared to molest the Jews. [a Philo, ed. Frcf., Leg. 1015.] The only innovations to which Israel had then to submit were, the daily sacrifices for the Emperor and the Roman people, offerings on festive days, prayers for them in the Synagogues, and such participation in national joy or sorrow as their religion allowed. [b u. s. 1031, 1041.]

 

It was far other when Tiberius succeeded to the Empire, and Judaea was a province. Merciless harshness characterised the administration of Palestine; while the Emperor himself was bitterly hostile to Judaism and the Jews, and that although, personally, openly careless of all religion. [c Suet. Tiber. 69.] Under his reign the persecution of the Roman Jews occurred, and Palestine suffered almost to the verge of endurance. The first Procurator whom Tiberius appointed over Judaea, changed the occupancy of the High-Priesthood four times, till he found in Caiaphas a sufficiently submissive instrument of Roman tyranny. The exactions, and the reckless disregard of all Jewish feelings and interests, might have been characterised as reaching the extreme limit, if worse had not followed when Pontius Pilate succeeded to the procuratorship. Venality, violence, robbery, persecutions, wanton malicious insults, judicial murders without even the formality of a legal process, and cruelty, such are the charges brought against his administration. [d Philo, u.s. 1034.] If former governors had, to some extent, respected the religious scruples of the Jews, Pilate set them purposely at defiance; and this not only once, but again and again, in Jerusalem, [e Jos. Ant. xviii. 3. 1, 2.] in Galilee, [f St. Luke xiii. 1.] and even in Samaria, [g Ant. xviii. 4. 1, 2.] until the Emperor himself interposed. [h Philo, Leg. 1033.]

 

Such, then, was the political condition of the land, when John appeared to preach the near Advent of a Kingdom with which Israel associated all that was happy and glorious, even beyond the dreams of the religious enthusiast. And equally loud was the call for help in reference to those who held chief spiritual rule over the people. St. Luke significantly joins together, as the highest religious authority in the land, the names of Annas and Caiaphas. [1 The Procurators were Imperial financial officers, with absolute power of government in smaller territories. The office was generally in the hands of the Roman knights, which chiefly consisted of financial men, bankers, chief publicans, &c. The order of knighthood had sunk to a low state, and the exactions of such a rule, especially in Judea, can better be imagined than described. Comp. on the whole subject, Friedlander, Sittengesch. Rom, vol. i. p. 268 &c.] The former had been appointed by Quirinius. After holding the Pontificate for nine years, he was deposed, and succeeded by others, of whom the fourth was his son-in-law Caiaphas. The character of the High-Priests during the whole of that period is described in the Talmud [a Pes. 57 a.] in terrible language.

Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Alfred Edersheim, Vol 1, Chapter 11

[Guest Silence]

But while the earliest religious teaching would, of necessity, come from the lips of the mother, it was the father who was 'bound to teach his son.' [e Kidd, 29 a.] To impart to the child knowledge of the Torah conferred as great spiritual distinction, as if a man had received the Law itself on Mount Horeb. [f Sanh. 99 b.] Every other engagement, even the necessary meal, should give place to this paramount duty; [g Kidd, 30 a.] nor should it be forgotten that, while here real labour was necessary, it would never prove fruitless. [h Meg. 6 b.] That man was of the profane vulgar (an Am ha-arets), who had sons, but failed to bring them up in knowledge of the Law. [i Sot. 22 a.] Directly the child learned to speak, his religious instruction was to begin, no doubt, with such verses of Holy Scripture as composed that part of the Jewish liturgy, which answers to our Creed. [1 The Shema.] Then would follow other passages from the Bible, short prayers, and select sayings of the sages. Special attention was given to the culture of the memory, since forgetfulness might prove as fatal in its consequences as ignorance or neglect of the Law. Very early the child must have been taught what might be called his birthday-text, some verse of Scripture beginning, or ending with, or at least containing, the same letters as his Hebrew name. This guardian-promise the child would insert in its daily prayers. [2 Comp. 'Sketches of Jewish Social Life,' pp. 159 &c. The enigmatic mode of wording and writing was very common. Thus, the year is marked by a verse, generally from Scripture, which contains the letters that give the numerical value of the year. These letters are indicated by marks above them.] The earliest hymns taught would be the Psalms for the days of the week, or festive Psalms, such as the Hallel, [n Ps. cxiii. cxviii.] or those connected with the festive pilgrimages to Zion.

 

The regular instruction commenced with the fifth or sixth year (according to strength), when every child was sent to school. [o Baba B. 21 a; Keth. 50 a.] There can be no reasonable doubt that at that time such schools existed throughout the land. We find references to them at almost every period; indeed, the existence of higher schools and Academies would not have been possible without such primary instruction. Two Rabbis of Jerusalem, specially distinguished and beloved on account of their educational labours, were among the last victims of Herod's cruelty. [a Jos. Ant. xvii. 6. 2.] Later on, tradition ascribes to Joshua the son of Gamla the introduction of schools in every town, and the compulsory education in them of all children above the age of six. [b Baba B. 21 a.] Such was the transcendent merit attaching to this act, that it seemed to blot out the guilt of the purchase for him of the High-Priestly office by his wife Martha, shortly before the commencement of the great Jewish war. [c Yebam. 61 a; Yoma 18 a.] [1 He was succeeded by Matthias, the son of Theophilos, under whose Pontificate the war against Rome began.] To pass over the fabulous number of schools supposed to have existed in Jerusalem, tradition had it that, despite of this, the City only fell because of the neglect of the education of children. [d Shabb. 119 b.] It was even deemed unlawful to live in a place where there was no school. [e Sanh. 17 b.] Such a city deserved to be either destroyed or excommunicated. [f Shabb. u.s.]

 

Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Alfred Edersheim, Vol 1, Chapter 9

[Guest Silence]

It was Sunday morning, the first of Christ's Mission-work, the first of His Preaching. He was purposing to return to Galilee. It was fitting He should do so: for the sake of His new disciples; for what He was to do in Galilee; for His own sake. The first Jerusalem-visit must be prepared for by them all; and He would not go there till the right time, for the Paschal Feast. It was probably a distance of about twenty miles from Bethabara to Cana. By the way, two other disciples were to be gained, this time not brought, but called, where, and in what precise circumstances, we know not. But the notice that Philip was a fellow-townsman of Andrew and Peter, seems to imply some instrumentality on their part. Similarly, we gather that, afterwards, Philip was somewhat in advance of the rest, when he found his acquaintance Nathanael, and engaged in conversation with him just as Jesus and the others came up. But here also we mark, as another characteristic trait of John, that he, and his brother with him, seem to have clung close to the Person of Christ, just as did Mary afterwards in the house of her brother. It was this intense exclusiveness of fellowship with Jesus which traced on his mind that fullest picture of the God-Man, which his narrative reflects.

 

The call to Philip from the lips of the Saviour met, we know not under what circumstances, immediate responsive obedience. Yet, though no special obstacles had to be overcome, and hence no special narrative was called for, it must have implied much of learning, to judge from what he did, and from what he said to Nathanael. There is something special about Nathanael's conquest by Christ, rather implied, perhaps, than expressed, and of which the Lord's words gives significant hints. They seem to point to what had passed in his mind just before Philip found him. Alike the expression 'an Israelite in truth, in whom is no guile' [a v. 47.], looking back on what changed the name of Jacob into Israel, and the evident reference to the full realisation of Jacob's vision in Bethel, [a v. 51.] may be an indication that this very vision had engaged his thoughts. As the Synagogue understood the narrative, its application to the then state of Israel and the Messianic hope would most readily suggest itself. Putting aside all extravagances, the Synagogue thought, in connection with it, of the rising power of the Gentiles, but concluded with the precious comfort of the assurance, in Jer. xxx. 11, of Israel's final restoration. [b Tanchuma on the passage, ed. Warsh. p. 38 a, b.] Nathanael (Theodore, 'the gift of God,') had, as we often read of Rabbis, [1 Corroborative and illustrative passages are here too numerous, perhaps also not sufficiently important, to be quoted in detail.] rested for prayer, meditation, or study, in the shadow of that wide-spreading tree so common in Palestine, the fig-tree. [2 Ewald imagines that this 'fig-tree' had been in the garden of Nathanael's house at Cana, and Archdeacon Watkins seems to adopt this view, but, as it seems to me, without historical ground.] The approaching Passover-season, perhaps mingling with thoughts of John's announcement by the banks of Jordan, would naturally suggest the great deliverance of Israel in 'the age to come;' [c So in Tan chuma.] all the more, perhaps, from the painful contrast in the present. Such a verse as that with which, in a well-known Rabbinic work, [d Pesiqta.] the meditation for the New Moon of Nisan, the Passover month, closes: 'Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help,' [e Ps. cxlvi 5; Pesiqta, ed. Buber, p. 62 a.] would recur, and so lead back the mind to the suggestive symbol of Jacob's vision, and its realisation in 'the age to come.' [f Tanchuma,u. s.]

 

Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Alfred Edersheim, Vol 1, Ascent 3

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

This thread is a perfect example of why a folder dedicated to religion would have been a dreadful idea.

As a Catholic... I think you're exactly right. You'd have religious types "proving" the unprovable and insulting common-sense non-religious types. And you'd have non-religious types "disproving" the unprovable and stereotyping common-sense religious types.

 

I guess it was pretty unrealistic of me to expect to have a secular discussion of the man known as Jesus Christ.

Quite frankly, it was unintelligent of you. You can't not use Christian theology when discussing Jesus Christ. You can't have a secular discussion about a non-secular man.