Misawa vs Kawada GHC Title Match

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

It's probably going to be a while before I actually get the match so in the mean time does anybody have a link to a review of the match? I'm curious to read what went on, all I know is from a few pics I've seen.

 

Thanks.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Kobashi beat Misawa for the GHC recently, not Kawada, who's still injurred, as far as I know.

 

Zach Arnold had plenty of possitive things to say about it on his web site, but from the sound of it they just did the usual "Top This" match that they've done for years, which, with their frail bodies, doesn't sound like too hot an idea. Arnold didn't seem concerned about Kobashi's injuries when he wrote about how Misawa should build the company around him, but then Zach is a pretty wacky guy sometimes.

[Guest XdojimeX]

Ryan K on the dvdvr board posted a nice little writeup on it.

[Guest wolverine]

The last few times NOAH tried to recreate the big All Japan main event match (Kobashi vs. Akiyama 12/23/00 & Misawa vs. Akiyama 7/27/01 come to mind), they failed to deliver from a work standpoint – which is to be expected in Kobashi and Misawa’s cases due to their numerous injuries that have become impossible to keep track of. Akiyama, on the other hand, is somebody who in my view, simply never lived up to his potential – which at one point, perhaps during the Super Power Series 1996 tour, looked to lead him, as crazy as this sounds in hindsight, to the levels that Misawa, Kawada and Kobashi reached. Showing flashes of greatness is one thing; sustaining it is a whole other issue.

 

But as far as the Misawa/Kobashi match is concerned, it sounds as if they brutalized each other again, which at this point is a really scary thought. I don’t expect much out of this, and I certainly wouldn’t fathom them coming within a country mile of their best matches, but I do have some interest in seeing it. You know the effort is going to be there, and if the crowd is any indication, it seems as if they maybe put on one last hurrah. But the aftereffects of that momentary high may or may not be worthwhile in the long run.

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

Fuck! My bad. Thanks Ricky for the correction.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

I heard that some of the crowd were so emotional watching the match that some of them actually cried. The match itself sounds crazy and some of the bumps they supposedly did sound sick (apparently Misawa tiger suplexes Kobashi of the ramp onto the floor)

[Guest Black Tiger]

The last few times NOAH tried to recreate the big All Japan main event match (Kobashi vs. Akiyama 12/23/00 & Misawa vs. Akiyama 7/27/01 come to mind), they failed to deliver from a work standpoint

I have to disagree about Akiyama vs. Misawa from 2001 here. From a workrate view, the NOAH match was better than their last match in AJPW on 2/27/00. What makes the AJPW match better is that Akiyama's win comes off as being special, because it was the first. I don't think there was any doubt on 7/27/01 of who was leaving with the title.

 

I read that Zach rated the 3/1/03 match ****-****1/4, but Zach is a little weird, he gave Takayama vs. Ogawa on 9/7/02 ****, that match wasn't even ***

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Zach just seems to have an unnatural affiliation with the NOAH style, which makes him somewhat unobjective.

 

I also have to disagree about the Akiyama vs. Kobashi rematch from Dec 2000 (i believe). I enjoyed this, it told a nice little story without indulging too much in unnecesary head dropping, and Kobashi always entertains me with his mass of charisma.

 

I can't see this newest Misawa / Kobashi match being anything special, it literally sounds like they just threw high spots at each other, it's probably a new low for these two. However, you've got to give Misawa credit for playing to his fanbase, this was obviously a match that the NOAH fans wanted to see, and sounds like a huge success in that respect.

[Guest wolverine]

If you've seen enough of what these guys did in their *primes* you guys would probably feel differently.

 

Kobashi vs. Akiyama is around ***1/2, whereas I've always thought Misawa vs. Akiyama was a complete embarassment, at around **1/2. Nowhere near their best AJ matches.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Probably.

 

I do recognise that these guys are past their primes, but I can appreciate a past his prime Kobashi and a past his prime Akiyama more than quite a few other wrestlers around. And even though they're past their primes, they still fun to watch.

 

I can't believe I haven't begun my long anticipated journey through 90's AJPW, but I'm determined to do so on the next order. A little compilation of late 80's Jumbo vs. Tenryu and the lead up to Misawa removing his mask should start me off I reckon. Mmmmm.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Never caught Misawa/Akiyama 7/27/01 (even Jun Fanboy Zach was hating on it, so I thought it wasn't worth my time) but Kobashi/Akiyama 12/23/00 was not a great match. There were certain portions of it that could have made it a MOTYC, but every time they started developing a storyline (working each other's necks, Jun working Kobashi's lariat arm) they simply forgot about it and went back to "Top This" to pop the crowd. What's the point of even keeping their neck strategies in the back of everyone's mind if they're going to start no-selling their suplexes anyway?

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

http://home.new.rr.com/rmoehring/TSoffRamp.avi

 

Taken from the DVDMB... You know what it is...

[Guest Breetai]

http://home.new.rr.com/rmoehring/TSoffRamp.avi

 

Taken from the DVDMB... You know what it is...

SWEET MIGHTY FUCK that's brutal.

 

 

*walks away shaking head*

 

 

How long do you think it'll be before they try that with a TD'91 or Burning Hammer?

[Guest wolverine]

There isn't any point in me saying that they've lost their minds, but goddamn, they have lost their minds. It would be convenient to say that they know what they're doing, but the real question is, do they know what the consequences are? They know the real score, better than all of us, but don't blame me for saying it's the Bottom of the 9th with two strikes and two outs.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Well that's the single sickest thing I've ever seen. Honma doesn't have anything on Kobashi in the elevated head drop department now.

 

Still, I yearn for the days where Misawa and Kobashi actually worked matches, sold chinlocks like death, and it only took one Tiger Suplex(a normal one on the mat) to keep Kenta down.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

Was there even any padding out there to break Kobashi's fall, not that it would have mattered much with that kind of momentum and a one-inch mat.

 

I've often thought how irresponsible it was of promoters to not do more to ensre the safety of wrestlers doing high-risk moves to the outside. The slightest contact with surfaces with no give is going to hurt, flying towards a surface from a distance with only the chance of another wrestler to break your fall is very dangerous. One inch mats aren't going to do much, I'm constantly suprised more wrestlers aren't hurt seriously. I also doubt the fans woud care if there was more adequate padding on the floor, the effort of the wrestler and the aesthetic of the move will be enough to have that move be appreciated.

 

I doubt Kobashi, Misawa and many other wrestlers aren't aware of the sacrifice they are making. Is seems like there will be a generation of ex-wrestlers wheelchair bound by their 50's. The AJPW/NOAH guys took alot of headdrops which will catch up to them, but many wrestlers take moves on their head, neck and upper back which will also affect them later.

 

Old time wresters are hardly able to walk due to severe arthritis and their style lacked the impact of current wrestlers. Instead of just knees, hips, etc., giving wrestlers difficulties it's going to be knees, hips, backs, necks, etc.

[Guest Black Tiger]

DFK,

 

Your points are certainly valid. You missed the point that the wrestlers are supposed to go out there and entertain the fans, to make them feel like they got their moneys worth.

 

 

Dynamite Kid is now confined to a wheelchair due to his high risk style, and he's said that he has no regrets and he'd do it all over again if he could.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

DFK,

 

Your points are certainly valid. You missed the point that the wrestlers are supposed to go out there and entertain the fans, to make them feel like they got their moneys worth.

 

 

Dynamite Kid is now confined to a wheelchair due to his high risk style, and he's said that he has no regrets and he'd do it all over again if he could.

 

I wasn't saying it's wrong or right but feel they go beyond what is neccessary. Kobashi has too much heart for his own good, I would think the fans would trade him working a full schedule and taking unneccesary bumps if it meant he'd be able to prolong his career. He could give fans their money's worth without endangering his career to the degree he does.

 

I also think it's more than giving the fans their moneys worth, I think it's also about building one's legend. People will remember those who showed a great deal of fighting spirit and left on impression. Certain wrestlers are willing to sacrifice their health for the quasi-immortality of legend. Certain people will sacrifice so that they don't have to feel ordinary or faceless, they want to be special and feel their lives have left a mark on humanity. Then again there are those destroying their bodies with little recognition or money. Some will also sacrifice themselves for that which they love. It's a trade off that is up to the person, they're adults and make their own decisions, I just don't feel the have to take it as far as they do to attain what their after.

 

Dynamite Kid may have said he has no regrets but I would think his quality of life has to have been compromised by what he put his body through. Dynamite Kid will be remembered, he'll be known as one of the most influential wrestlers ever but he's dealing with the consequences and they aren't positive.

[Guest Black Tiger]

DFK,

 

I see exactly what your saying. I can think of several wrestlers I will remember for a long time, who didn't go out there and try to kill themselves for our enjoyment.

 

Shinjiro Ohtani

Koji Kanemoto

Jyushin Lyger

Masahiro Chono

Hiroyoshi Tenzan

Satoshi Kojima

 

Those six happen to be either fantastic wrestlers, or great characters. Its been well documented that in AJPW before the head drop period that guys like Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi were the best wrestlers in the world.

 

The head drop spots were more or less what they had to do to make up for a lack of stars, which is kind of sad. In one way they gained a whole new following of fans by the spots, but they STILL hadn't created any new stars, and now in NOAH the main event roster is so tiny its almost sad.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

Those guys certainly wrestle a more reasonable style but they've taken their share of punishment that will catch up to them someday. Bumps like taking a bridging move where one has to land on their shoulders/upper back is going to jolt their spines. High impact moves even if they're flat-backed are going to have a whip-lash affect, over a course of a career and after they've retired their necks and backs will have the potential to deteriorate greatly.

 

Pro wrestling is a hard profession and I doubt few walk away anywhere close to 100% even if their style was relatively safe. The Tiger Suplex Kobashi took off the ramp will probably be remembered but it will just add to his physical problems regarding both his wrestling career and his life afterwards. I went wow when I saw the clip but I'd prefer he'd not pull shit like that and stop wrestling full tours so he can wrestle healthier, longer. But I guess they felt they had to top their previous efforts by turning up the brutality to ridiculous levels again.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Kanemoto didn't go out there and take needless bumps? This is a guy who no-sold top-rope fisherman's busters, right?

[Guest Black Tiger]

Kanemoto didn't go out there and take needless bumps? This is a guy who no-sold top-rope fisherman's busters, right?

Ricky,

 

Why you feel the need to pick apart the post just to get in an anti-Kanemoto remark that adds nothing to the thread is beyond me, but since you opened the door, I'll be happy to respond.

 

In ten years or so, when someone thinks back on the career of Koji Kanemoto they're going to remember the classic matches he had with guys like Lyger, Ohtani, and his tag matches with Tanaka. Not that he took a few bumps on the noggin. Hell Shinjiro Ohtani took a pretty sick German suplex during the Sky Diving J, but nobody seems to remember that either.

 

When someone thinks back on the career of Misawa or Kobashi all that they're going to remmber is shit like Ganso bomb, Emerald Frozion, and Burning Hammer. The matches during the period when the head drops came into play don't hold a candle to their matches from 1993-1996 and its a shame that they won't be remembered for their really great matches.

 

Looking back at Dynamite Kid's career, aside from the matches vs. Tiger Mask, what matches of his really stick out as being great matches? The Wrestlemania II match was really good IMO, but I'm almost lost already for really great DK matches.

[Guest wolverine]

I honestly don't think anyone but the most diehard NJ mark will remember Koji Kanemoto ten years from now. In my estimation, he simply has not made any kind of significant impact on the wrestling business to where he'd warrant being remembered. Sure, he's been involved in some good matches, but more often than not, he lets his selfishness in trying to get his prick act over get in the way of proper storytelling (i.e. 6/5/97 vs. Samurai). And regarding these 'classic' matches you say he's had, realistically, I don't remember much about them at all (and that was like as of a couple months ago).

 

Liger has made an impact. Ohtani has made an impact. Kanemoto has not.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Dynamite Kid had lots of memomorable matches in Stampede. He wrestled awesome matches against Bret,Cobra, and Bruce and from what I hear Bad News. I don't know if I've ever seen better carry jobs than these. Dynamite vs Bret in the WWF was memorable IMO. Also, from what I've seen I've really enjoyed the Hart Foundation vs Bulldogs fued.

In NJPW, Dynamite's match against Cobra was definitely memorable. Check the fan's reaction when he wins. I also thought his match against Fujinami was too.

In AJPW, the Bulldogs vs Malenkos is often cited as being great.

[Guest gansobomber]

We can put the whole subject into perspective this way:

 

It is the wrestler who decides how he wrestles. If he wants a head drop spot oriented match, so be it. If you feel queasy or sorry for the wrestler, you are justified in feeling so. They are not going to stop until the public wants them to stop. Dynamite Kid for the record said that he wouldn't mind going back to wrestling if he could. Some people will sacrifice anything for what they love.

[Guest XdojimeX]

 

Wow thats a crazy bump. 11.0 on the nestea plunge scale. Cactus would be proud.

 

Geez, I was watching Misawa/Kobashi vs. Jumbo/Taue for the tag straps just the other day too, 6/92 or something. Great fucking match. Even Taue was on fire.

 

I popped huge for that attempted rolling cradle on Jumbo's big surly ass.

 

*sigh*

 

Actually I'm being a bit of a hypocrite with that sigh of mine...Jumbo did dump Kenta on his petulant dome a minute later. And I popped for that too.

[Guest wolverine]

Yeah, that Jumbo/Taue vs. Misawa/Kobashi 6/5/92 tag was fantastic (****1/2). I couldn't help but mark for the myriad of near falls as well. Kobashi from that era was a ton of fun, so it was an intriguing match with him being elevated up to a main event level tag with the top dogs.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

"Ricky,

 

Why you feel the need to pick apart the post just to get in an anti-Kanemoto remark that adds nothing to the thread is beyond me, but since you opened the door, I'll be happy to respond."

 

You tossed Koji into a group of guys who "didn't need to use needless head-drops to work the crowd" when anyone who has seen some Kanemoto matches from '97-'99 can tell you that he took more than his share of them. I'm not trying to be anti-Kanemoto, I'm taking exception to an error in your judgement.

 

"In ten years or so, when someone thinks back on the career of Koji Kanemoto they're going to remember the classic matches he had with guys like Lyger, Ohtani, and his tag matches with Tanaka."

 

Like I said, some of those matches with Lyger included top rope fisherman's busters, correct?

 

"Not that he took a few bumps on the noggin. Hell Shinjiro Ohtani took a pretty sick German suplex during the Sky Diving J, but nobody seems to remember that either."

 

No selling a top-rope fisherman's buster isn't just a "bump on the noggin" and he took more than a few, unless I'm mistaken.

 

If anyone remembered Kanemoto's "classic" matches with Lyger, Sammy, ect. than they would be remembering matches filled with risky neck-bumps. Those bumps are part of the "great matches" you claim everyone will remember.

 

And you would probably have a case for Ohtani taking a good amount of head drops, now that you mention it. Why did you feel the need to group him with the "Guy's who were above getting dropped on their heads," also? Like you said, he was no saint in that regard either.

 

You seem to imply that I'm only going after Kanemoto here. I'm not trying to single him out. Actually, I think there were others besides he and Ohtani that shouldn't have been listed, now that I consider it. Tenzan and Kojima certainly have shown they aren't above goofy no-selling or delayed selling with head-drops.

 

"When someone thinks back on the career of Misawa or Kobashi all that they're going to remmber is shit like Ganso bomb, Emerald Frozion, and Burning Hammer."

 

And looking back on Kanemoto's matches, no one's going to remember the Reverse Frankensteiner? Listen to yourself. You're implying that Misawa/Kobashi will only be remembered as a head-dropping series, while Kanemoto is remembered for taking a smarter approach. It doesn't help your case that most of Koji's stuff from his run on top of the junior division included matches such as the ones with Lyger and Sammy.

 

"The matches during the period when the head drops came into play don't hold a candle to their matches from 1993-1996 and its a shame that they won't be remembered for their really great matches."

 

Have you seen nearly enough AJPW to make a claim like that? Not being an AJ die hard myself, I can only go off of what I hear, and pretty much everyone I've talked to who's seen a great deal of ninties All Japan says that Misawa and Kobashi had their best matches in '97. Maybe this is a misconception on my part?

 

"Looking back at Dynamite Kid's career, aside from the matches vs. Tiger Mask, what matches of his really stick out as being great matches? The Wrestlemania II match was really good IMO, but I'm almost lost already for really great DK matches."

 

I'm not that big on DK, but from what I can tell most of his supporters point to his Stampede work for why he's one of the best workers ever.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

"When someone thinks back on the career of Misawa or Kobashi all that they're going to remmber is shit like Ganso bomb, Emerald Frozion, and Burning Hammer."

 

And looking back on Kanemoto's matches, no one's going to remember the Reverse Frankensteiner? Listen to yourself. You're implying that Misawa/Kobashi will only be remembered as a head-dropping series, while Kanemoto is remembered for taking a smarter approach. It doesn't help your case that most of Koji's stuff from his run on top of the junior division included matches such as the ones with Lyger and Sammy.

 

"The matches during the period when the head drops came into play don't hold a candle to their matches from 1993-1996 and its a shame that they won't be remembered for their really great matches."

 

Have you seen nearly enough AJPW to make a claim like that? Not being an AJ die hard myself, I can only go off of what I hear, and pretty much everyone I've talked to who's seen a great deal of ninties All Japan says that Misawa and Kobashi had their best matches in '97. Maybe this is a misconception on my part?

 

 

Fans will remember spots less than they will a classic era of wrestling and all the great performances and matches within that era. Kobashi's fighting spirit transcends all the crazy spots he has involved in. The Tiger Suplex off the ramp will be remembered but not on he level of the greatness he has shown for the last 10+ years. Kobashi is a legend and all the headdrops will be a small part of his legend, they don't define him. One of the reasons I don't like the dangerous, career-shorting spots is that Misawa and Kobashi have nothing left o prove. I don't believe they should live off their reputations but they wrestle like they need to prove something which they have already proven many times over.

 

Liger is a legend, he has pulled off alot of crazy stuff but will be remembered above all as a great, influential wrestler. DK's legacy is seen in Liger, Benoit, etc., and in those they influence and will continue to influence. He has had great matches but those pale in comparision to the way he revolutionalized wrestling. I don't know what his motivation was(Money, fame, love of the sport) but I doubt he knew he was doing irrepairable damage to the extent he did. Of course one can't go back in time and ask him if he would wrestle knowing he'd end up a cripple. Kobashi and Misawa must know what they are headed for, DK was one of the first to employ a high-risk style so the consequences weren't known. Freak accidents must ave been a concern but accumulative damage probably wasn't a huge concern.

 

Kanemoto isn't a legend IMO, I think he'll be remembered as being part of a great era of juniors but his legacy won't stand out like Misawa's, Kobashi's or Liger's.

[Guest wolverine]

Not being an AJ die hard myself, I can only go off of what I hear, and pretty much everyone I've talked to who's seen a great deal of ninties All Japan says that Misawa and Kobashi had their best matches in '97. Maybe this is a misconception on my part?

 

It isn't a misconception. It's very clear from watching AJPW long enough, that their best and smartest matches all took place in 1997. The storytelling element, once AJPW's strong point, was replaced with huge amounts of bump taking and no-selling once we got to 1998 and 1999, and the matches suffered as a result. But, of course, there's still plenty of people who go ga-ga over it, but I'm not one of them. Hell, I'll take their fun little 4/93 sprint (which has about 10 minutes of airtime) over these late 90's bouts that some people like to call 'epics.' The only thing epic about them to me, is the amount of boredom they incite while watching.