Guest Steve J. Rogers Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 I mean really, for as much blame people want to throw at Triple H without so much a SHRED of evidence, shouldn't the same thing be said about the way Austin has pulled rank and clout in this whole nWo angle? I mean he has apparantly disrupted the whole plan for how the split was going to go down by refusing to go along with the original ending to the Hall match (Vince was going to help Hall get the win, which would probably lead to another Vince-Flair showdown and the announcement on Monday) Now Austin is pulling no-shows and no one is taking him to task? You'd be crucifing Triple H if he no-showed. This leads to my Anti-Hogan theory about whom Smarks NEVER critize about ANYTHING they do: The fact is, that if you have been affected in ANYWAY of a Hogan power play, or it is suspected that Hogan is somehow related in affecting your storylines/matches, that will then justify anything you do in terms of political games in the business. Case in point: Steve Austin is A) screwed by Friends Of Hogan as he is forced to job in seconds to Hacksaw Jim Duggan for the US Title and B) fired by Eric Bischoff (who Hogan was in the ear of at the time) while rehabbing a leg injury. Two times getting screwed by Hogan or associates of Hogan. Not to mention when he goes to ECW he lambastes and lampoons Hogan and Bischoff in quasi-shoots which gives him enough sympathy from all the smarks that whenever he tries a powerplay everyone sides with him. Take Ric Flair, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, Mick Foley, Bret Hart, or any of the legions in the business who hate Hogan, or have been screwed by Hogan or associates of Hogan and they are all exempt from doing the same things people hate Hogan for. Steve
Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 give me a second and I'll cut and paste my response.
Guest Brian Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 When someone's performing well, people care less about their backstage stuff. People who perform below standards are the one who get crucified.
Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 Although I'm a big Austin guy...I actually agree... I've been saying for weeks that Hall has looked good, but Austin has looked unmotivated. I've bitched about Austin for a while...but I don't know what you expect him to do now. He's not going to retire...and if Hogan got away with crap like this all the time (Although he would take months off) then what are they going to do? That being said...I understand why he's pissed (even if I disagree). Rock was off making a movie last year, and HHH was on the shelf. Leaving Austin alone. So what happens at Mania? Rock gets put clean over Hogan and HHH walks out with the title. That's not how I would want to be rewarded at the biggest show of the year after carrying the company the year before.
Guest goodhelmet Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 Maybe Austin hasn't been criticized lately, since we're all still bitter over Jericho's loss BUT we have taken him to task for refusing a program with Jarett (who was a credible heel with true heat) and for only jobbing in screwjob manners. But why should Austin put over Razor, who hasn't proven himself yet or deserve to be in the same ring with Austin? If you were the company's top dog for so long, would you want to work with a midcarder like Hall? I bet if they would have continued with Booker-Austin, Austin would have been perfectly happy but the dinosaurs fucked it up!!!! And if HHH no-showed RAW, we would have been celebrating the fact we didn't have to listen to his weak-ass babyface promo.
Guest Brian Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 I disagree with the placement of the job (it should have been Vince interfering in Flair's match), but that loss would play to the biggest angle ever.
Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 "I am the game...." ...um...we hear this every week... "And I am that #### good" ...crickets.... "you know...steph...you are a slut..." mild pop "and I am the game..." people exiting.
Guest goodhelmet Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 No sh!t !!!! But you forgot..... I've been uh uhway for.... uh ... 8 long ...months... uh!!!!
Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 No...I think I forgot: "ooh ooh...eee eee...fire good....ooh ooh...play the game..."
Guest Some Guy Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 There is a definate double standard. HHH was holding down the Smark's favorates, Hogan was too, Austin is holding back Scott Hall. Most people fail to realize that Austin has not put anybody over in a decisive way to help create a new star. He has given Jericho tainted wins, Benoit never beat him clean, Angle already was a star, HHH already a star. Unless I'm forgetting someone than I see it as Austin getting a free ride. Except for a few people latley who have been quasi-bashing him, such as myself and Bps. Austin has phoned it in completely since Jan. He sleepwalked through NWO with Jericho, and at Mania he looked like he couldn't wait to get the fuck out of there. If he had listened to Hall, who aparently wanted to start slow and build a match it might have been more than * or **. I understand Austin being pissed about his spot on Mania, HE drew a lot of that crowd after all. But he should have just been a profensional and laced em up and given the people a good showing. He did get teh best worker and most talented, IMO of the nWo guys to work with, it's not like they stuck him with Nash.
Guest goodhelmet Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 "Austin is holding back Scott Hall" What the #### has Hall done to deserve to even be in the same arena with Austin? Hall is useless and he was great..... in ladder matches with HBK in 1994 and 1995. The guy has not had a good match in 7 friggin years!!!! He should be getting squashed by Lesnar next week.
Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 I thikn I agree completely with Some Guy. that's pretty much been my view since I saw Hall busting ass and working hard...and then Austin dogging it. Unfortunately...the marks don't see it that way...but Hall gained alot of respect in my eyes.
Guest El Satanico Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 Him not wanting to put Hall "over" probably had some to do with the way his WCW career ended which i'm sure wasn't helped by NWO and Hogan even if NWO didn't actually exist. Doesn't make him right for doing it but i can't really blame him for being pissed over having to make the weakest member (of something that he can consider to have played a role on how he ended his WCW career) look good. And yeah i'd say he has good reason to be pissed about being overlooked on a old legend vs. new legend match when he is the only true "new legend" in WWF at this time. That has already been covered here. So he actually has good reason to be pissed off and doing what he has done. Where as people bitching about what HHH may or may not do concerns a guy that has no reason to do it besides a power trip. I think that's the main reason why few have bitched about Austin compared to those who bitch aboot Hogan, Nash and HHH.
Guest goodhelmet Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 "that's pretty much been my view since I saw Hall busting ass and working hard..." Great, then let him bust ass and work with guys like DDP, Edge, RVD and other midcarders, which is what Hall is! Personally, I haven't seen Hall bust ass. I din't see him at a house show bps, but what has he done to EARN his main event 'status?
Guest AlwaysPissedOff Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 I mean really, for as much blame people want to throw at Triple H without so much a SHRED of evidence, shouldn't the same thing be said about the way Austin has pulled rank and clout in this whole nWo angle? I mean he has apparantly disrupted the whole plan for how the split was going to go down by refusing to go along with the original ending to the Hall match (Vince was going to help Hall get the win, which would probably lead to another Vince-Flair showdown and the announcement on Monday) Now Austin is pulling no-shows and no one is taking him to task? You'd be crucifing Triple H if he no-showed. This leads to my Anti-Hogan theory about whom Smarks NEVER critize about ANYTHING they do: The fact is, that if you have been affected in ANYWAY of a Hogan power play, or it is suspected that Hogan is somehow related in affecting your storylines/matches, that will then justify anything you do in terms of political games in the business. Case in point: Steve Austin is A) screwed by Friends Of Hogan as he is forced to job in seconds to Hacksaw Jim Duggan for the US Title and B) fired by Eric Bischoff (who Hogan was in the ear of at the time) while rehabbing a leg injury. Two times getting screwed by Hogan or associates of Hogan. Not to mention when he goes to ECW he lambastes and lampoons Hogan and Bischoff in quasi-shoots which gives him enough sympathy from all the smarks that whenever he tries a powerplay everyone sides with him. Take Ric Flair, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, Mick Foley, Bret Hart, or any of the legions in the business who hate Hogan, or have been screwed by Hogan or associates of Hogan and they are all exempt from doing the same things people hate Hogan for. Steve Apparently, you missed the other few threads about this very topic... AND, since it seems to be such a hot topic lately, I'll say my piece and be done with it for good. - Backstage politics have ALWAYS gone on in wrestling and personally, I'm getting tired of hearing people bitch about the same thing over and over again. I don't care about what goes on backstage since neither you or I are there to see it firsthand. Therefore, what happens that IS reported by the net could all really be the WWF working our stupid asses for fun. It doesn't surprise me when Austin plays the political game, if anything, I expected it. Does it bother me like it seemingly bothers some others? No, I just don't care anymore. He didn't put over Jarrett or Billy Gunn? Granted, that IS pretty bad, but Jarrett(although I like him a lot) was really just a heatless midcarder who beat up women, big deal. Billy Gunn? You mean the same Billy Gunn who gets a new push every other month? The one that no matter how devoid of talent and/or heat gets new storylines and gimmicks that no doubt lead to failures? Bah, Flair did much of the same, so has Hogan, so has HHH, so has Nash, it is no different. Now, I'm not saying Austin has a right to sleepwalk through matches and feuds, though. That's something I've already called him to task for because that fucks up my enjoyment of the WWF product.
Guest Kinetic Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 Isn't this what the split is supposed to accomplish? Giving talented young lions like Austin the chance to prove that they've got what it takes? I mean, honestly. Austin's been the focal point of WWF programming for the better part of five years now. A guy like Hogan could get away with that type of thing in the 80s, because he wasn't on TV two or three times a week. His only major character development in that time--disregarding the heel run, which may as well have never happened--is the integration of the word "What?" into his promos. Both the WWF and Austin would be well served by giving him a somewhat diminished role in the company. I'm not saying that he should be demoted to the midcard, I'm just suggesting that he need not be in the main event of every pay per view anymore. It's unfortunate that he seems to have contracted the extreme paranoia about his "spot" that did Bret Hart in. People in these positions need to learn that at some point you have to stop thinking about yourself and start thinking about the company that you work for.
Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 I'm not saying he deserves Main Event status...but the NWO is the Main Event storyline...and that's what he is. I said that Hall should be in the midcard... and I saw him bust ass in that NWO vs. Austin/Rock Raw match where he carried his entire team...and he looked to be trying aweful hard for a guy who was getting squashed at Mania. I'm not a Hall guy...but he's been earning my respect. He certainly hasn't been phoning in matches like Austin...and he's the one who's getting beat.
Guest goodhelmet Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 "People in these positions need to learn that at some point you have to stop thinking about yourself and start thinking about the company that you work for." If these guys had insurance, company stock or guarantee. I'd agree with you, nut they don't so I won't
Guest notJames Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 ...what has he done to EARN his main event 'status? Cmon... politicking, benefiting from your friendships, and riding the crest of past achievements takes a lot of hard work! Seriously, Hall may have been working harder than he has in a long time, but I think it's more out of desperation to keep whatever favour he might have with the higher-ups. I'm sure they're still keeping tabs on him to make sure he doesn't screw up again. And really, "busting ass" for Hall is like a two-minute curtain-jerking Smackdown match for a true main-eventer like Angle, and he's getting prepped for a feud with Edge. Granted, I like both and can see how Edge will benefit from the rub, but Angle deserves much more than Turner's problem child does. And on the subject of Austin's disgruntledness, sure all signs point to primadonna behaviour, but after all the things he's done and sacrificed to help make the Fed successful, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt over a hack like HGH. $0.02
Guest Some Guy Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 I think Hall has worked very hard since his re-debut. He has also apparently been doing exactly what he has been told to as well without bitching (being tied up and made to look like a complete fool on his 3rd day back). My point about Austin holding Hall back was that Hall is not a Smark favorite, while the guys who HHH held/is holding back are. "What the #### has Hall done to deserve to even be in the same arena with Austin?' He started one of the most succesful angles in the history of wrestling. This alone puts him in the same arena as Austin, however it doesn't give him a win sqaush match against him or anything, i do think starting the nWo anfle as well as being in the business over 15 years and drawing in both WWF and WCW earns him at least a competitive match. BTW, WTF has RVD, Jericho, etc... ever done to deserve to be in the same arena as Austin? Your point is invalid IMO.
Guest Kinetic Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 If these guys had insurance, company stock or guarantee. I'd agree with you, nut they don't so I won't Getting fired or quitting due to irreconciliable differences with the company probably isn't going to help anyone's financial situation. The WWF has given Austin the opportunity to make himself a big star, and he's done a terrific job of it. But he has no right to be all up-in-arms just because they're pursuing a main event direction that has the potential to make him look like something less than a god.
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 Wow......I'd be estatic if I was Austin to. The most popular wrestler of the 90's, the greatest WWF champion ever and I get to wrestle a former alcoholic, 40 year old mid-carder! Where do I sign!? Frankly I don't care if Austin is using the dreaded "backstage power" why? Because the guy is the best wrestler in the WWF(aside from Benoit) and was the most entertaining thing on TV last year. Whatever gets me more him and less HHH then by god do it!
Guest goodhelmet Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 In Jericho's case, he came from a rival company, EARNED his way up the ladder to a main event slot and began feuding with the main eventers. In RVD's position, he was thrust there by the sheer force of the fans chantiing his name during the entire Alliance angle! Hall just walked right behind Kevin Nash and Hogan and automatically gets a feud with Austin? there is clearly a difference. Especially when Hall is a life long midcarder.
Guest goodhelmet Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 OK kill this thread now. Everything anyone has said here is meaningless!!!!! Look at the Smackdown Spoiler thread pertaining to the title match on RAW!!! HHH, Austin, Jericho, none of it matters. This could truly be the NADIR in wrestling HISTORY!!!!
Guest RickyChosyu Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 I disagree. I think it all comes down to the fact that Hogan nearly killed the WWF in '93, and Austin saved the WWF in '97-98. For Vince to simply disregard Austin's resentment for Hogan in signing him is not only bad business, but insulting to Austin, too. I mean, the guy went with every horribly-booked angle that the company gave him in 2001, and despite how bad it was looking with all the Invasion silliness, he managed to carry the company on his own. Now, he's getting rewarded with a feud with Scott Hall, a guy who has proven to be completely worthless for several years now. Of course he's pissed. The guy he resents the most in the business is making a powerplay in his company, and he's being booked into the midcard. What the #### is he supposed to do? Yeah, if HHH did this he would probably be questioned a lot more by the internet, but that doesn't mean it would be justified. The fact is, everyone has to watch out for the spot right now, and Austin has been screwed before by Hogan. You'd have to be either blind, stupid, or ignorant to think Austin would be fine with this, and I'm afraid I can't decide which Vince is right now. I think that a lot of guys who got the same treatment from Hogan and Co. in WCW wouldn't mind siding with Austin, and that this could lead to further problems down the road, to say the least.
Guest Austin3164life Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 I know you're going to think my smark name excludes me because I'm an Austin mark. I agree that Austin should be the professional he is and work hard to make the matches great. I'm kind of surprised at his lack of motivation to work. But, to be honest, would you guys have been so ecstatic about being in Austin's boots right now? Picture it like this..... You're the WWF's hottest rising superstar in 1997, having excellent matches and angles. You come back from a career threatening injury, still the most popular man, and you redefine your career. You win the belt you sought after for 8 years, and you catapult the WWF to the #1 slot on television. You're making millions in ticket sales, merchandising, and so on. You have good feuds with the likes of Mankind, The Rock, Triple H, Angle, and Benoit. You come back from 11 months of surgical rehabilitation only to carry the company again for a solid year. You are being referred to as the most popular wrester ever, and the greatest WWF Champion ever. All of a sudden, a 41 year old recovering alcoholic is brought it and you are placed in a mid-card program with him in the biggest show of the year, a show which you highlighted three times....... I'll be honest with you. All my respect for Austin aside, I wouldn't be that motivated to work a match with someone who should pretty much be done. If I had revolutionized the wrestling business and I was on the midcard at the biggest wrestling event ever, I wouldn't be very happy.....
Guest Some Guy Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 Good Helmet, IMO Hall is only a life long mid-carder because of Kevin Nash and then because of his drug and drinking problems. Hall was way over as Razor Ramon in the mid-90s, he easily could have been elevated in to the top spot in the promotion instead of Nash. He deserved it way more and was/is a much better worker. In WCW he was more over than Nash, despite being the fall guy in the tag team. Hall is more willing to sell and job, which is another reason why he never made to the main event. He was the path of least resistence for the bookers, ask Al Snow about that. Hall is no angel nor is he as good as Austin, but by no means that that make him not worthy of working with Austin.
Guest mastermind Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 I can't believe my eyes here. First I want to say that I am a HUGE Austin mark, but guys the man is being COMPLETELY selfish here. I remember talking about this in the Rock/Austin thread. I think Austin is being a cry baby no ifs or buts about it. Look at this from a business standpoint. The wwf was starting to fall apart since SummerSlam 2000 I think everyone will agree. Austin returns when Rock and Triple CARRIED the #### wwf in his absence for a year. I think Austin deserved his spot in the main event at WM 17 because he worked his ass off and then started to have some solid matches with people like Benoit and Angle(who btw, can carry almost anyone which some fail to point out) before his match with Rock last year. Austin turns heel in Texas because people were saying his character was STALE. When someone of Austin's caliber turns heel it is to PUT PEOPLE OVER. He didn't put ANYONE over as a heel. Please don't count that crap with Angle in Septemeber either. I'm not saying he has to LOSE to get people over, but have the faces come within an inch of defeating him like a true heel champ like Triple H or Flair were. The wwf protected Austin the WHOLE #### YEAR with his title reign. Even his LOSS of the title is disputable because he had to fight twice in one night. So, Scott Hall is a bum and shouldn't be in Austin's ring? This is a load of crap. Hall was WAY MUCH more over before Austin was even big. Razor Ramone and Diesel leaving left a huge void in the wwf and Austin benefitted from it. Or did we also forget the wwf lost Bret Hart around the same time as well? I lived through all this stuff and remember quite clearly and still have the video footage to show it. Austin is put in the position to look strong against Bret Hart in the summer by attacking Bret in promos. If Hart doesn't sign he looks like a chickenshit to Austin and if Hart signs he is immediately getting the heat from what many saw as the real wwf champ returning. This was going on while Hall STARTED the nWo angle which jumpstarted the boom of the late 90's. I mean come on guys, don't let Hall's personal problems cloud judgement about what Hall did for business. I will fast forward to 1997 when Austin was truly starting to get over with the fans in the summer(btw, I knew Austin had "it" right around KOR and his promos with Pillman). Austin and the nWo had the most over catchphrases and Hall sure had people popping with his surveys and "bad guy" lines(which were used as Razor). Now tell me something if Hall came back don't you think he would have EASILY been headlining in the wwf during that time when the organization had a LEAN roster? Hall was in the midcard with people like Savage, Piper, Flair, Goldberg, Sting, etc. on the card. As for 1993 Hogan didn't nearly kill the wwf. Wrestling in general was dying because Hogan refused to go along with a program to advance the wwf product in putting Bret Hart over. If Hogan had agreed with the program things would have looked a bit brighter although not by much. WCW wasn't exactly burning up the nations either. Now take 1993 and bring it to 2001-2 when the wwf is not as exciting and cutting edge as it once was. The wwf tries to ignite business like wcw did with turning the most over face in history(agruable in my opinion because Hogan's longevity has shown its face), but it fails. They jumpstart the wcw brand name and it flops with Austin headlining it. I know booking had a lot to do with it, but as been shown if fans love ya and the stuff is bad(Hogan running into Rock with a truck) they will still go nuts. The product got stale with this current roster, so they brought in the nWo trying to ignite enregy. The wwf saw the failure of invasion by letting their top guys go easily over and it flopped. The big split didn't happen with WCW taking one of the shows. So this time they try to do it right, but Austin afraid of the star power history and politicking(I give him that) of the guys coming in starts to power play. On top of that he starts to phone in on matches like the match he had with Jericho last month. I said before Rock NEVER does this stuff and it HAS hurt him if you take what the Canadian fans have done to him this week(America could be different). I really doubt Vince wouldn't let Austin get the upperhand on the nWo after using them to split the wwf. I mean that is a PRETTY HUGE angle historically that Austin would have been in. Now he was in an okay match with Hall with no real historic meaning. Instead of showing up on RAW or SmackDown he goes home. I mean even Taker was backstage. Who is playing big dog now? I don't hate Austin, but you know what he is thinking like Hulk Hogan did in 1991 and 1992. If you can tell fans remember what he did. It's not like they will just forget about what Austin did. Austin is hurting PROGRESSION just like Hogan did in 19991-93. To top it off on Off the Record in 1998 Austin said he wouldn't do this because he knows things have to spread around. Yeah, he says that when he has the wwf title on the table looking at it, but now when he SHOULD obviously have jobbed to keep the nWo angle at least with some heat(they did lose TWICE and it would make more sense that they turn on Hogan when Hogan CHOKES on his match, while Hall won his match) he pulls a powerplay. To say Austin deserves this and that at this point is moot because as I said he hasn't put people over like Rock and Foley have. I wonder why he was a bit worried to be put in a program with Hogan? Afraid something like what Rock got with fans would happen to him? Dwyane Johnson might be naive as well, but he seems to think about the business even though he allows his character to lose in situations where other wrestlers WOULD SURE put on the power play. Anyways, I can't defend Austin's behaviour IF this is true because he is acting like Bret Hart in 1997 and also Hogan in 1992-1993. I agree politics have always been there and usually the top stars do need to protect themselves, BUT not against the progression of the business. Austin caused the sting of the split to decrease with Linda's announcement. Vince didn't do anything for her to make that announcement. Maybe they could have put Vince in the Flair match as someone said, but the nWo angle needed the "push" more as Vince brought them in to destroy the wwf. Anyways, Austin is still my boy I'm just stating things as I see it.
Guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 Even his LOSS of the title is disputable because he had to fight twice in one night. And Jericho didn't? As I recall Jericho didn't even have a rest between his two fights...
Guest TheHulkster Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 Im sure Austin has worked hard and drew a bunch of money these past few years, but business is business. Austin hasn't exactly set the world on fire since wrestlemania X-7 as far as drawing money is concerned. Vince and the WWF see an opprotunity to try something different and see if it makes money in which austin is still a part of, but not the entire focal point so poor little stevie goes crying back to texas. Its a tough world, and if he's stupid enough to think vince gives more of a shit about him than the almighty dollar that he is completely blind to vince's treatment of every main eventer in the past in the wwf. Ill start at the top of the list with bret, shawn michaels, bruno, backlund, even hulk hogan was tossed aside and had dirt kicked on his legacy by vince. The writing was on the wall. The same thing is going to happen to rocky and who ever else becomes a huge star, their ego is going to make them think that they cant be pushed to the side in favor of something else. Austin's best move would be to quit whining and play by the rules because its a lonely world out there for a big megastar outside of the wwf.
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