Yep, it's official: France is next after Iraq

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Support the "fact" that they get billions on exports to the United States, I don't buy that (no pun intended).

 

They don't actually produce anything of value anyway (besides fine wine), and I doubt what they do would go over a billion. They are much more vulnerable to the EU's whim, not our stupid petty boycott.

[Guest Anglesault]

How about helping us get our independence?

And lord knows we havn't paid hem back for that again and again and again and again.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

It's still a pretty damned big deal, wouldn't you say?

[Guest JMA]

Don't worry. He'll surrender before he attack really gets going.

That's pretty low, Sault. It's still not right to hate someone because of where they were born. Period.

[Guest Anglesault]

It's still a pretty damned big deal, wouldn't you say?

That's been paid back ten-fold. Now they "owe" us.

[Guest Powerplay]

How about helping us get our independence?

Tyler, we both know that they did that more to screw over the British and to get revenge for their losses in the French and Indian War, not because they identified with our plight. What about the XYZ Affair not long afterward, where France got ticked because we tried to politically bury the hatchet with Britain, and then said that to even negotiate with them that we'd have to give them a $12,000,000 loan and give a bribe of $250,000 to their Foreign Minister?

[Guest Anglesault]

Don't worry. He'll surrender before he attack really gets going.

That's pretty low, Sault. It's still not right to hate someone because of where they were born. Period.

Yes, was serious. I spend my free time randomly mugging the French beause they are easy targets.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Agreed, they did it to screw over the British, but we still owe them our independence. I don't think you can put a price on that.

 

I don't recall the XYZ Affair, though, would you elaborate on the specific terms (and not just the bribes)?

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

How about helping us get our independence?

Tyler, we both know that they did that more to screw over the British and to get revenge for their losses in the French and Indian War, not because they identified with our plight. What about the XYZ Affair not long afterward, where France got ticked because we tried to politically bury the hatchet with Britain, and then said that to even negotiate with them that we'd have to give them a $12,000,000 loan and give a bribe of $250,000 to their Foreign Minister?

American Revolution: France has a monarchy.

 

XYZ Affair: France has a fragile republic controlled by the military.

 

Even though the events were roughly 17 years apart, France was radically changed during that time. You've gotta remember that. Also, we didn't liberate France because we wanted to liberate France, they were just one of the countries we had to go through to get to Germany.

[Guest LooseCannon]

Support the "fact" that they get billions on exports to the United States, I don't buy that (no pun intended).

 

They don't actually produce anything of value anyway (besides fine wine), and I doubt what they do would go over a billion. They are much more vulnerable to the EU's whim, not our stupid petty boycott.

French Exports to America statistics.

 

I've noticed that quite a few of my cd's were made in France.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

The US didn't go into Europe with the goal of liberating France, that's just something that happened along the way (mainly because France is the best landing ground for an army in Western Europe, somewhere like Spain has too many mountains). The US military objective in Europe was to defeat Germany and take Berlin. Liberating western Europe was something that sort of came with the package. Contrast this to the Gulf War, where the objective was clearly to liberate Kuwait. Had the objective been to take down Iraq, the army would have gone all the way to Bagdahd and not pulled out when they did.

 

I really do laugh when people speak derisively about France surrendering during WW2. The US never saw the Wehrmacht at the height of its powers (the begining of the war), had they been in France's position they would have done exactly the same thing. France was hopelessly outclassed by a larger, more well-equiped, well-trained army with far superior generals. Germany's army was so good they almost managed to win the war despite Hitler's stupidity.

[Guest Anglesault]

Agreed, they did it to screw over the British, but we still owe them our independence. I don't think you can put a price on that.

What do you call what we did for them in WWII? Close enough.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Support the "fact" that they get billions on exports to the United States, I don't buy that (no pun intended).

 

They don't actually produce anything of value anyway (besides fine wine), and I doubt what they do would go over a billion. They are much more vulnerable to the EU's whim, not our stupid petty boycott.

French Exports to America statistics.

 

I've noticed that quite a few of my cd's were made in France.

That's surprising, but I'm willing to bet they rely much more on the rest of Europe than on America.

[Guest LooseCannon]

That's surprising, but I'm willing to bet they rely much more on the rest of Europe than on America.

It's hard to say. We consume so much over here that other countries rely on us so much for trade and we don't really even notice it.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Good point.

 

I'd look up the figures of France's exports on Nexis if I wasn't lazy.

 

I mean, I suppose I can see where they export the most to us, but it doesn't seem feasible to me. I know we have a lot of Taiwanese, Korean, and Vietnamese goods... but you really don't see a lot of "Made in France" from my observations.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

Do you honestly think this makes the French people feel SAD?

 

Do you think they're UNHAPPY or SCARED because we want our bodies back and we're boycotting French products?

 

No. They're sitting in their little frog-ass houses LAUGHING at us because we're a bunch of little whining, spiteful babies. Yours, and the representatives who push this legislation's, attitudes further that sentiment.

Moron, France's economy grows 1% each year. A complete U.S. boycott would send them into a recession.

 

I think using semantics for political battles is stupid. However, I completely support a boycott as it is the proper, democratic way to send a message.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I prefer the term "Axis of Impotence" to "Axis of Not Letting Us Get Our Way."

[Guest Powerplay]

Agreed, they did it to screw over the British, but we still owe them our independence. I don't think you can put a price on that.

 

I don't recall the XYZ Affair, though, would you elaborate on the specific terms (and not just the bribes)?

Sure, I'll try the best I can from what I remember. Basically, after not giving assistance to the Radical Socialist Revolution in France and signing Jay's Treaty with Britain, France thought that we were being too Pro-British. Therefore, in 1797, when we wanted to sign a peace treaty with them their foreign minister asked, before they even considered it, that a $12,000,000 loan for France and $250,000 for himself. It's largely considered to be a bribe by historians, and we were nearly driven to war because of this outrage.

 

Kotzen: Just because they are a struggling Republic under military control doesn't justify in anyway what they did. This was almost extortion. And if the Monarchy liberated us, why should we thank the people whose system was built on slaughtering them? Really, man . Honestly, if you want to talk about radical change, look at the differences in Government from 1783 (When they really pitched in help) and today. Can you REALLY still thank them when their governmental system and mindset is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT? That's just like saying "I hate French people because Napolean invaded my country in the early 1800s". The same can't be said for the U.S. assistance in WWI and WWII, because, despite some cultural changes, we are still the same government with the same mindset. And we DID intend on liberating France, though the main objective was on taking down Germany. France didn't care for us or our system, they just wanted to get revenge against the British.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

I sincerely doubt it would send them into a huge depression if we boycott their supply of...

 

What do they export to us?

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

The XYZ Affair almost drove us to war. A war, I might add, that the proud and united American nation would have almost certainly won. Hell, Napoleon's faction probobly would have aided us, because they didn't like the Directory any more then we did.

[Guest Ozymandias]

...they quit in Vietnam...we took over for them after they quit in Vietnam...

Why would you mention that?

All it proves is that they had more sense about it than us.

You're just shooting yourself in the foot there.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

Under Kennedy the US was winning the Vietnam War.

 

It wasn't until Johnson became President and it became a defensive war did thing start to go wrong.

[Guest Ozymandias]

So what? The point was that France has the sense to realize that it was none of their fucking business (a concept most Americans seem incapable of grasping) and got out.

[Guest Powerplay]

So what? The point was that France has the sense to realize that it was none of their fucking business (a concept most Americans seem incapable of grasping) and got out.

No, France got the idea that they were getting their ass kicked in and that there was no point in continuing a war that they were doomed to lose. You act as if the French simply said "We respect your freedom, and therefore we will leave you be", which really isn't the case. It wasn't common sense, it was just an ass kicking plain and simple.

[Guest Jack Tunney]

I do recall France winning the Hundred Years war.They fought for about 138 years and didnt surrender.

[Guest Ozymandias]

France got the idea that they were getting their ass kicked in and that there was no point in continuing a war that they were doomed to lose.

That's your interpretation of it. And IF that was correct, it goes to show they had more common sense than America who refused to withdraw from a war they were doomed to lose.

[Guest Powerplay]

France got the idea that they were getting their ass kicked in and that there was no point in continuing a war that they were doomed to lose.

That's your interpretation of it. And IF that was correct, it goes to show they had more common sense than America who refused to withdraw from a war they were doomed to lose.

Doomed to lose? Are you kidding me? Really, had Vietnam continued, we would have won. We were slaughtering the NVA well enough, and the Viet Cong was effectively destroyed in the failed Tet Offensive. Problem was that the people were becoming more and more opposed to the war as it dragged on and on. We were in full control the whole time, man, and there wasn't any way the North Vietnamese could have defeated us without the public outcry to just end it already. That's what happens when you don't have a clear goal or reason to fight, I guess.

[Guest Ozymandias]

Blippity blah-blah. Excuses are like assholes - everyone has one and they all stink.

A blindman could take one quick glance at that war and see that the US wasn't listening to the anti-war movement at all. The outcry started 10 YEARS before the war was ended.

We LOST, and anything else is just revisionist bullshit espoused to help people sleep at night despite knowing that we lost in spectacular fashion.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I do recall France winning the Hundred Years war.They fought for about 138 years and didnt surrender.

The Hundred Years War was not one continous war, but multiple conflicts arising from Henry V's takeover of France. France didn't just surrender once, they surrendered multiple times.

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

When it comes to World War II, a few things fucked the French over.

 

#1- Laval and Petain, both of them were pretty much Nazi sympathizers and fucking lunatics.

 

Pierre Laval had a media empire in France, he used it to put Petain into power. He then played lapdog to the Nazis. Before running to Spain, getting sent to France and executed.

 

Henri-Phillpe Petain was an ancient extreme right-winger who was behind the surrender to Germany. Without Petain, the French would not have surrendered in 30 days. Petain, due to the fact that he was around 90 years old, was not executed.

 

Two milion French soldiers were taken prisoner during the invasion.

 

Here's some other dates and tidbits.

 

June 15th, 1940: The US rejects France's call for help.

 

Hell, you could even read into claims that Churchill and the Brits just left France to the Nazis so they could prepare for a German invasion (that never came). Or the fact that Belgium refused to allow the Maringot Line to be extended on the Franco/Belgian border.

 

When somebody mentions a French gun being dropped just once. They of course forget the futile effort of France, and the efforts of the French resistance to help the Allies storm though France.

 

"Throughout France the Resistance had been of inestimable value in the campaign. Without their great assistance the liberation of France would have consumed a much longer time and meant greater losses to ourselves." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

 

As for WWI: the Americans broke the stalemate, but the Germans were due to fall anyways.

 

Powerplay: No, I'd doubt that Vietnam would have been won by the American troops. You can't conduct a war if people are so opposed to it that they'll elect leaders who will end it. How long would it have taken to win? about 5 years? not to mention that any 'victory' would involve guerrilla resistance, or the possible "Chinese volunteers storm the border" scenario.

 

The French are not very fond of supporting military action that they see as 'aggressive', most likely because of the whole 'invaded by an aggressive power twice' thing.

 

The French aren't really needed for any sort of Army backup, and it's flawed to compare the Americans running the Germans out of France to the French helping the Americans run a guy out of Iraq. It's not the same, it's America giving France a free dinner and then insisting that they make America dinner in return.