Guest oldschoolwrestling Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 I was just wondering what the world of wrestling would be like if heels were allowed to go over cleanly. If they didn't have to cheat to win and got their heat only by badmouthing. I find it silly that a guy is a face and can beat any heel clean yet that same guy can turn heel and all of a sudden he can't beat anyone unless he cheats. Could something like this get over?
Guest notJames Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 Austin in '97 Undertaker when he first came in and now HHH 2000 I'm sure they all cheated at one point or another, but they all got over through workrate and clean wins, which prompted them to go face eventually. Their overall aura is that they got most of their wins cleanly. It seems like most of the bigger wrestlers were/are that way, too. It's easy to perceive a big heel beating a smaller face cleanly.
Guest dreamer420 Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 But doesn't the good guy always prevail? I think it would be something very different for the WWF to try but it would also be confusing to the fans wouldn't it? They might not know who to cheer for.
Guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 It could probably work for isolated cases but for it to work in a bigger perspective either the public has to be re-educated to be interested in "competitive fair" battles or the heels will need other ways to get the heel heat that they achieve by cheating. I think one problem with eliminating cheating is that it would be difficult for the heel to achive heel heat in an arena if he just came out and wrestled a clean match and eventually won it. Badmouting before the match won't be enough. It would be interesting to discuss the idea of going away from the traditional face/heel setup that pro wrestling has always been built around.
Guest NoCalMike Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 It worked just fine in ECW......Raven and Taz were two of the biggest heels and they went over clean many times and it didn't affect any heat with them or their opponents. It is all in how you build someone. You can just build Jericho like a good but super arrogant heel who feels he can't lose, which means they will have to let him go over clean a few times on ppv over ME guys, then eventually someone will come along and beat him....etc....
Guest notJames Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 Eliminating (or trying to) the good-guy/bad-guy dynamic was what ECW tried to do. Their whole thing was promoting the wrestling overall and letting the audience decide who they liked and hated. It worked in the sense that certain wrestlers had to really work or tweak their characters in order to gain the desired response, or just went along with the crowd anyway. It didn't totally work, but the effort to do it was evident. In the Fed, though, it would ultimately fail because the larger audience is predicated on the morality play that wrestling has traditionally been based on. Like I mentioned in the Lesnar/Heyman thread, they have to be careful in how they push their wrestlers. A guy with a presence and moveset like Lesnar needs a heel manager to keep him on the dark side, otherwise, things like his Shooting Star Press will no doubt lead him down the RVD path to facedom. Such is the way with the cheating gimmick. Sure there are unstoppable monsters that tear through ranks and can make people hate them. But if you didn't hate the bad guy, it would make the good guy's eventual triumph seem not so important. So most heels will cheat to keep the morality play alive and keep the audience hoping that he'll get his comeuppance. Naturally, everyone has their faves on the face and heel side. That's a given. But the overall picture must have some semblance of black and white, good and evil. Otherwise, we might as well just watch amateur, greco-roman, or sumo wrestling. And you're not going to see too many Space Flying Tiger Drops or chairs to the head in that.
Guest oldschoolwrestling Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 All valid points, thanks. I guess I'm just tired of guys like Angle, Y2J, Booker, and other heels ALWAYS having to cheat to win. I know its part of the heel persona, but a clean win even once in a while against a top face would be great in my opinion.
Guest Human Fly Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 I agree. A clean win every now and then wouldn't hurt at all. Especially for Jericho. When he was Champ he couldn't even beat Rikishi clean! How much would it have hurt to have Rikishi lose clean to the Undisputed Champ?
Guest notJames Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 Well, there was that time that Angle pinned Shane McMahon clean after that brutal, bloody brawl... ... but then again, Shane wasn't a top face (was he?) I know where you're coming from. It seems a lot my faves are heels, and their public perception would skyrocket if they could get clean wins over the top faces. But then, you' d end up with 100 Undertakers, and who wants that?
Guest notJames Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 I agree. A clean win every now and then wouldn't hurt at all. Especially for Jericho. When he was Champ he couldn't even beat Rikishi clean! How much would it have hurt to have Rikishi lose clean to the Undisputed Champ? That definitely solidified Jericho's morph from uber-heel to weasel-heel. not even 100 clean pins on the Rock could change that.
Guest The Man in Blak Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 I think it worked in ECW when they still had interesting characters, but they abandoned it later when the talent pool ran a little dry, with distinct heels like Steve Corino. Otherwise, I think the trashing of the heel/face dynamic was very successful in giving peak-period ECW that particular aura about it that made it one of the most influential promotions in the last 10 years. The WWF kind of tried to do that in '98, with guys like Austin and Undertaker ("it's just business") essentially abandoning ther stricter heel/face personas, but I think they pretty much let go of those ideas once Russo left and/or the PTC started raining on their parade.
Guest goodhelmet Posted March 20, 2002 Report Posted March 20, 2002 "I know where you're coming from. It seems a lot my faves are heels, and their public perception would skyrocket if they could get clean wins over the top faces. But then, you' d end up with 100 Undertakers, and who wants that?" Not necessarily. The UT is a talentless, no selling hack who usually is made to look good by his opponents. HHH in 2000-2001 was a heel who sold his ass off, had ***** matches, but came out on the winning side, usually clean. Jericho & Angle have been comedy champions who noone takes seriously anymore. But if guys like Booker, Angle, Jericho were to win clean, just because they are the superior wrestler, then yes their image would improve.
Guest Risk Posted March 21, 2002 Report Posted March 21, 2002 But doesn't the good guy always prevail? No. No offence, but that is too cartoonish to me. If I wanted to see "the good guy" always win, I'd watch Bugs Bunny cartoons. The word is not back and white, so neither should westlng. Heels and faces get stagnant, repetitive, and boring. Let the audience decide who they like, like in ECW. That was probably one of the reasons fans(including myself) liked it so much. You want to see how Grey the word is? Take Clinton, he helped the country but had numerous affairs behind his wife's back. Is he a good guy or bad guy? Neither. He is human. Wrestlers are human and should be treated as such, not cartoons. Vince was supposed to elmimate heels and faces in 98...he never did.
Guest goodhelmet Posted March 21, 2002 Report Posted March 21, 2002 I think that comment was made tongue in cheek.
Guest cabbageboy Posted March 21, 2002 Report Posted March 21, 2002 See, I have always hated this shades of gray crap. In 1997 I had no idea what the fuck was going on or who to cheer for. No one was worth a #### in my view. You have Bret Hart making anti American comments, Steve Austin attacking people in ambulances (and at home), the Undertaker revealed as burning his brother, a bunch of gangs like NOD and the DOA. For all the talk of "shades of gray" I notice that the WWF didn't do shit in the ratings till they had completely turned Austin face and had a heel Vince to oppose him. In Foley's book he mentions Randy Hales's Memphis booking strategy: "A heel has got to cheat to win and get heat. If he doesn't cheat, he is not a heel." It makes some sense. See, this is how I look at it. The heel can be clearly better than lower card guys and can beat them clean. The heel cannot however beat the main event faces cleanly. The entire basis of being a heel is to do what it takes to win regardless of whether it is right or wrong. And really, the heel can't be the actual better man against the main face because, well, people pay their money to see the heel get his ass kicked. If the heel wins fairly all the time it sucks and you have WCW circa 1992 with Vader and Williams & Gordy being the heels but winning clean. The thing I always found amusing about Memphis wrestling was watching a guy who was a heel suddenly turn face and then start winning cleanly.
Guest Austin3164life Posted March 21, 2002 Report Posted March 21, 2002 What makes heels terrible these days is not lack of workrate or heat, it's because with the attitude era, a heel has to use outside interference to win mostly all the time, over a big face. I feel that the heel should cheat BY HIMSELF to win, thus making him look somewhat clever and crafty, keeping his heat.....
Guest Mystery Eskimo Posted March 21, 2002 Report Posted March 21, 2002 I feel that the heel should cheat BY HIMSELF to win, thus making him look somewhat clever and crafty, keeping his heat..... Absolutely. Jericho was having to have Vince, Steph etc interfere, as well as a combination of low blows/feet on ropes/belt shots. Heels never win with the old handful of tights anymore. I guess that's "too clean".
Guest notJames Posted March 21, 2002 Report Posted March 21, 2002 I could do without all the ref bumps. It seems like half the matches in any given show has them, and most of the time, they're superfluous. Just clock the guy with the lead pipe when the ref's back is turned. No need for the heavily choreographed do-si-do to get the ref sandwiched between you, your opponent, the exposed turnbuckle, Rikishi's ass, etc. And really, it's gotten so bad, once a ref goes down, the audience automatically turns to the entranceway, expecting the Heel Brigade to administer the requisite beatdown and spraypainting. They really need to retrain the audience into thinking there are other ways of doing things without resorting to crap like that. This is why TV has been so stale. Well, that among the myriad of other problems discussed already.
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