Details on the Goldberg signing, Ultimo Dragon

[Guest Downhome]

If you can not tell the difference between Goldberg of Starcade 98, and Goldberg of 2001, then you have no clue. He was totally used the wrong way, against the wrong guys, over and over again, after Nash pinned him.

That may not be his fault but because of that he isn't over as he was and isn't as a big draw. Someone who hasn't been used correctly for three years is not going to be draw and help the company. Simple as that.

lol, no, it is not simple as that.

 

I still fail to understand how ANYONE can actually believe that Goldberg will not INSTANTLY be one of, if not the, #1 face on whatever show he is on. He will be over, the PPV's which he is a part of (if the WWE itself doesn't fuck up) will either do better than they are now or will NOT be worse (depending on how they build him up), and he will be of use.

 

That is all I can say, and you can only say no to all of that, there is no way for either one of us to actually prove either point. Just sit back, and wait and see what happens, because just being a negitive all of the time is pointless, wait and see what happens before you turn your back on them.

[Guest Crux]

Great, another 'roid abuser thats gonna go over Jericho...

[Guest edotherocket]

Yeah well I think agreeing to disagree is the way to go since this isn't really going anywhere.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

I just understand that certain wrestlers generate some heat and that no matter how much you try to defend them it just doesnt seem to make any difference.

Then you can either

 

a) show some integrity by defending your stance, or

 

b) not say anything about them at all.

[Guest bob_barron]

If you can not tell the difference between Goldberg of Starcade 98, and Goldberg of 2001, then you have no clue. He was totally used the wrong way, against the wrong guys, over and over again, after Nash pinned him.

That may not be his fault but because of that he isn't over as he was and isn't as a big draw. Someone who hasn't been used correctly for three years is not going to be draw and help the company. Simple as that.

lol, no, it is not simple as that.

 

I still fail to understand how ANYONE can actually believe that Goldberg will not INSTANTLY be one of, if not the, #1 face on whatever show he is on. He will be over, the PPV's which he is a part of (if the WWE itself doesn't fuck up) will either do better than they are now or will NOT be worse (depending on how they build him up), and he will be of use.

 

That is all I can say, and you can only say no to all of that, there is no way for either one of us to actually prove either point. Just sit back, and wait and see what happens, because just being a negitive all of the time is pointless, wait and see what happens before you turn your back on them.

Why do you think a guy who hasn't been seen in two years, has been mocked by WWF many times and racked up all his wins in a federation seen by many as being a big loser would INSTANTLY be the #1 face?

 

I already showed you that in 2000, two shows he WASN'T on were the top two shows of the year for WCW.

 

Why do you think he can improve things when-

The Rock, Stone Cold, Eric Bischoff, Triple H, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Shawn Michaels, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, and Scott Steiner have all not improved things at all?

 

I've proven that Goldberg is no longer a draw and hasn't been for more then four years

[Guest Downhome]

I just understand that certain wrestlers generate some heat and that no matter how much you try to defend them it just doesnt seem to make any difference.

Then you can either

 

a) show some integrity by defending your stance, or

 

b) not say anything about them at all.

No matter what anyone who is pro Goldberg says, will ever be taken to heart. I've even showed the facts that after Goldberg was fucked at Starcade, WCW was never the same. The fans were into him, and he should have remained the champion, but WCW fucked up.

 

If you think Goldberg is not over, I don't know what to say. Even at the last PPV the fans were all expecting/wanting Goldberg to show up. Did you not hear the very loud Goldberg chat after the lights went out? Have you not heard Goldberg chants at various WWE events? Did you not hear them go ape shit over him at the mention of his name when Vince bought WCW? He was over, he is over, and he will continue to be over, untill WWE decides for that not to be.

[Guest gwf0704]

What was your main argument? That Steiner should have been given the world title. A guy who's physically incapable of wrestling pay per view length matches, is a walking cripple, and has bombed in front of live crowds when wrestling while having little effects on ratings.

Well, Steiner was just an example, but when he was signed I was excited because, even though he has a bum foot, he still generates emotion from the crowd. Im really not sure what you mean by no reaction as every time I see him come out the fans are usually on their feet. Is it a Hogan response or Rock response? No way, but still its a response. What I meant to say was that they misused Steiner as I was hoping he would come in as a monster heel who wrestles faces and heels with his I dont care for authority attitude. I just dont want Goldberg to be misused that way, meaning giving him a world title shot right off the bat and then hanging in limbo like Steiner. I mean, he's teaming with Test for goodness sake. Have Goldberg come in, have some matches, go up the ranks and build up a match against the champ, whether its HHH or Booker T.

[Guest bob_barron]

I just understand that certain wrestlers generate some heat and that no matter how much you try to defend them it just doesnt seem to make any difference.

Taker and Hogan get huge pops. They're run as champions completely bombed.

Kane gets huge pops- He has also proven to not be a draw.

 

A crowd of people going crazy for you means dick unless they fork over $35 for a PPV

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

I still fail to understand how ANYONE can actually believe that Goldberg will not INSTANTLY be one of, if not the, #1 face on whatever show he is on. He will be over, the PPV's which he is a part of (if the WWE itself doesn't fuck up) will either do better than they are now or will NOT be worse (depending on how they build him up), and he will be of use.

At least you're not talking about freshness anymore. Makes me envision Goldberg doing a Vagi-Clean commercial.

 

That is all I can say, and you can only say no to all of that, there is no way for either one of us to actually prove either point. Just sit back, and wait and see what happens, because just being a negitive all of the time is pointless, wait and see what happens before you turn your back on them.

 

I remember you talking about Steiner's overness in the Rumble thread just minutes before he was booed out of the building. Point? Sometimes people are right all along.

[Guest bob_barron]

I just understand that certain wrestlers generate some heat and that no matter how much you try to defend them it just doesnt seem to make any difference.

Then you can either

 

a) show some integrity by defending your stance, or

 

b) not say anything about them at all.

No matter what anyone who is pro Goldberg says, will ever be taken to heart. I've even showed the facts that after Goldberg was fucked at Starcade, WCW was never the same. The fans were into him, and he should have remained the champion, but WCW fucked up.

 

If you think Goldberg is not over, I don't know what to say. Even at the last PPV the fans were all expecting/wanting Goldberg to show up. Did you not hear the very loud Goldberg chat after the lights went out? Have you not heard Goldberg chants at various WWE events? Did you not hear them go ape shit over him at the mention of his name when Vince bought WCW? He was over, he is over, and he will continue to be over, untill WWE decides for that not to be.

He maybe over but will fans want to pay money to see him come pay per view time? Probably not

[Guest Downhome]

If you can not tell the difference between Goldberg of Starcade 98, and Goldberg of 2001, then you have no clue. He was totally used the wrong way, against the wrong guys, over and over again, after Nash pinned him.

That may not be his fault but because of that he isn't over as he was and isn't as a big draw. Someone who hasn't been used correctly for three years is not going to be draw and help the company. Simple as that.

lol, no, it is not simple as that.

 

I still fail to understand how ANYONE can actually believe that Goldberg will not INSTANTLY be one of, if not the, #1 face on whatever show he is on. He will be over, the PPV's which he is a part of (if the WWE itself doesn't fuck up) will either do better than they are now or will NOT be worse (depending on how they build him up), and he will be of use.

 

That is all I can say, and you can only say no to all of that, there is no way for either one of us to actually prove either point. Just sit back, and wait and see what happens, because just being a negitive all of the time is pointless, wait and see what happens before you turn your back on them.

Why do you think a guy who hasn't been seen in two years, has been mocked by WWF many times and racked up all his wins in a federation seen by many as being a big loser would INSTANTLY be the #1 face?

 

I already showed you that in 2000, two shows he WASN'T on were the top two shows of the year for WCW.

 

Why do you think he can improve things when-

The Rock, Stone Cold, Eric Bischoff, Triple H, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Shawn Michaels, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, and Scott Steiner have all not improved things at all?

 

I've proven that Goldberg is no longer a draw and hasn't been for more then four years

You haven't proved anything, stating two shows like that doesn't prove anything at all. You have to look at the product as a whole, and quite simply, WCW was pure and utter shit at the time, regardless of who was on which shows. I'm not saying it's impossible for him to be fucked over again. They did it to Flair, WCW, nWo, and even Rocky and Austin in a way.

 

This is a chance for them to do something right, and help BEGIN to bring a freshness to their shows. It's very possible it wont work, but that isn't his fault just like it wasn't Rocky, Austin, Angle, Brock, or anyone elses fault. It's WWE's fault for not pulling their head out of their asses and doing anything right for a change.

[Guest bob_barron]

Steiner was good for one show. At that show he was completely booed out of the building and was exposed for being the useless sap he is.

 

He may draw emotion but it's usually not a good sign when your big new acquistion is walking around trying to act tough while he's getting booed and his purple thong is showing.

 

I think they should try Steiner as a heel and if that fails send him to OVW until he quits

[Guest Downhome]

I just understand that certain wrestlers generate some heat and that no matter how much you try to defend them it just doesnt seem to make any difference.

Then you can either

 

a) show some integrity by defending your stance, or

 

b) not say anything about them at all.

No matter what anyone who is pro Goldberg says, will ever be taken to heart. I've even showed the facts that after Goldberg was fucked at Starcade, WCW was never the same. The fans were into him, and he should have remained the champion, but WCW fucked up.

 

If you think Goldberg is not over, I don't know what to say. Even at the last PPV the fans were all expecting/wanting Goldberg to show up. Did you not hear the very loud Goldberg chat after the lights went out? Have you not heard Goldberg chants at various WWE events? Did you not hear them go ape shit over him at the mention of his name when Vince bought WCW? He was over, he is over, and he will continue to be over, untill WWE decides for that not to be.

He maybe over but will fans want to pay money to see him come pay per view time? Probably not

They will his first one or two shows he's one regardless of who he faces, just off of hype alone. After that, it's up to WWE as to how they present him, and put him with. Like I said though, neither one of us can prove this either way, just sit back and wait and see, then decide what you think.

[Guest Downhome]

I remember you talking about Steiner's overness in the Rumble thread just minutes before he was booed out of the building. Point? Sometimes people are right all along.

Steiner was over when he first debuted, and at the begining of the match he was still over. It wasn't untill he showed the world that he couldn't hardly move at all untill the fans decided to turn on him.

 

Don't get me wrong, I hate Steiner in WWE and I agree with Bob in that he should turn heel, if that doesn't work go to OVW, and then if that doesn't work cut ties. He is an example of someone coming in, and then proving he wasn't worth it. We can't say the same thing about Goldberg, untill he proves us either way.

[Guest bob_barron]

Then why didn't WCW fans flock to Great American Bash and Bash at the Beach which were the first two shows they did after his comeback?

 

In 2000 when he came back, WWF conceded a quarter hour for his return and yet they still kicked their ass. WWF was showing something with Brisco and Crash Holly at the time. This after WCW took out a full page ad in USA Today hyping his return.

 

Those PPV figures are my way of showing that Goldberg isn't a draw and I strongly believe he won't do anything for WWE in 2003

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

DH, nowhere did I say anything about Goldberg's overness. Nowhere did I say what effect he'll have in WWE.

 

What I *was* saying is that WCW *did* try to recreate 1998 Goldberg in late 2000 and early 2001, with less than favorable results. You can talk about the whole company being in the crapper, fine, but today's WWE isn't exactly too far from the toilet itself. So if he made no difference in 2000 WCW, it doesn't exactly instill any confidence in me that it will make a difference in 2003 WWE.

 

But I do agree with you on waiting and seeing. I don't know about *me* seeing since RAW is so mind-numbingly dull and formulaic these days, but we'll soon find out, won't we.

[Conspiracy_Victim 0]

Goldberg elicits nothing more than a huge "EH" from me. The guys hasn't been on TV in years, is sloppy, and prone to injuring either himself or others. His apparent prima donna "I'll work when I want with whom I want" is going to wear thin on the locker room REAL quick.

 

For nothing else it should make for interesting behind the scenes news. Can you imagine production meetings where Vince and company first broach the topic of Goldberg over HHH? I don't know who'd loose their cool first, Vince HHH, or Steph.

 

P.S.-I read on the first page that a sig is needed to show you're in it for the long haul. Que? Anyone want to help me come up with a catchy banner? Yuna, anyone? PLEASE?

[Guest Downhome]

Then why didn't WCW fans flock to Great American Bash and Bash at the Beach which were the first two shows they did after his comeback?

 

In 2000 when he came back, WWF conceded a quarter hour for his return and yet they still kicked their ass. WWF was showing something with Brisco and Crash Holly at the time. This after WCW took out a full page ad in USA Today hyping his return.

 

Those PPV figures are my way of showing that Goldberg isn't a draw and I strongly believe he won't do anything for WWE in 2003

I don't see your point at all. Even myself, the biggest Goldberg fan you will ever meet, didn't give two shits about his program after he debuted. It was worthless, and was just "WCWish" and I didn't care about what they were doing with him. That doesn't mean HE wasn't a draw, just that the program they had him in wasn't a draw, and THAT is not his fault.

 

Is Rocky and Austin no longer a draw? People were pumped to see them redebut on RAW, but since the ratings have been going downhill. It's not that they are not drawing, just their program they are in. Same thing goes for so many other people over the years.

[Guest Downhome]

The guys hasn't been on TV in years, is sloppy, and prone to injuring either himself or others.

I love this excuse for disliking Godlberg (and I know it wasn't your only one, but you did bring it up). Goldberg hurt himself by punching the window, in the heat of the moment, trying to make an angle look more realistic, with his adrenaline going crazy. It was stupid as fuck, but you can't blame him for at least trying that. As for hurting others...

 

...he has hurt ONE person, it was an accident, and it wasn't even his fault that the guy had to retire (WCW's fault for making him continue to wrestle, taking more and more shots to the head, by Terry Funk of all people I believe). He never hurt anyone else other than Bret Hart, aside things like the normal bumps and bruises everyone gets from everyone else. Hell, I even personally asked Dave Meltzer about this, and he has confirmed it, I even pasted the email from him months ago.

 

Just don't use the "he's dangerous" excuse, it does not hold water or a lick of truth.

[Guest Brian]

You would think that five years past the fact that he was even somewhat of a draw he'd be completely worthless except for a short-term fix now. Rock, Austin, and everyone else they've brought in should be enough proof of that. The goldberg chants have long since died out.

[Guest Coffey]

I guess I'm in the minority because I agree with pretty much everything that Downhome has stated.

 

The most common reason people list for not liking Goldberg are:

• Limited Moveset
• Injury Prone
• Doesn't care about the business
• Sloppy & causes injuries.

All of which, are false. He does not have a limited moveset. Every match that he was in that lasted longer than two minutes, Goldberg used a new move. From Gorilla Press Power Slams, to Rolling Leg Locks, to Fujiwara Armbars, to Dragon Screw Leg Whips, to Pump Handle Overhead Release Suplexes. The problem was that he was on a power push. So, most of his matches were over quickly. That was so that he would look like a monster. Could anyone in the business show off more than a couple moves in a thirty second match when you have to go into your double finisher sequence?

 

Injury prone is just bullshit. He's been injured one time. Once. That was after he punched threw a real limo window. Not some fake plexiglass bullshit. It was a real window. He did it because he wanted the segment to look more real. The same reason Hall shocked him with a real cattle prod.

 

Also, I don't know where this doesn't care about the business bullshit came from either. If he didn't care, he wouldn't do it. If more people looked at wrestling like a job, you wouldn't have as many politics and bad matches. Also, the paycheck is important. It's damn important when you have a family to support...that you never get to see.

 

I've never seen Goldberg sloppy. Ever. I watched most of his matches too. He was green. There is a big difference to being green and being sloppy. He kicked Bret Hart in the head. Oh my. I believe Roddy Piper said it best in his book. It's better to knock a guys teeth out than to pull a punch. Every wrestler knows before they step into the ring that they are risking injury. It's a very physical business. Injuries happy. Goldberg didn't end Brets career either. Sure, it didn't help, but neither did the other ten concussions that Hart had. Neither did wrestling after the Goldberg injury. Neither did competeing daily for 20 years. He was bound to get out sometime or another.

 

Bottom line: Goldberg is coming. And when he shows up, while you're all pissing and moaning, I'll be marking and having a good time.

[Conspiracy_Victim 0]

Don't pick on me Down..I'm sensitive *sniff sniff*.

 

Yes I may have exaggerated or not fully fleshed out the injury angles, but unless you've gotten really drunk, have you ever tried to go through a car window? I appreciate the fact that he was trying to make it realistic, but they script these things out (for the most part) for a reason. Throwing a forearm shiver at a car window is just something you don't do, especially when you're strong enough to actually break the thing. Just IMHO.

 

Really though it was just something else to throw out there with the he can't work (like that matters to the WWE anymore), prima donna, and salary demands arguments.

[Guest bob_barron]

I guess I'm in the minority because I agree with pretty much everything that Downhome has stated.

 

The most common reason people list for not liking Goldberg are:

• Limited Moveset
• Injury Prone
• Doesn't care about the business
• Sloppy & causes injuries.

All of which, are false. He does not have a limited moveset. Every match that he was in that lasted longer than two minutes, Goldberg used a new move. From Gorilla Press Power Slams, to Rolling Leg Locks, to Fujiwara Armbars, to Dragon Screw Leg Whips, to Pump Handle Overhead Release Suplexes. The problem was that he was on a power push. So, most of his matches were over quickly. That was so that he would look like a monster. Could anyone in the business show off more than a couple moves in a thirty second match when you have to go into your double finisher sequence?

 

Injury prone is just bullshit. He's been injured one time. Once. That was after he punched threw a real limo window. Not some fake plexiglass bullshit. It was a real window. He did it because he wanted the segment to look more real. The same reason Hall shocked him with a real cattle prod.

 

Also, I don't know where this doesn't care about the business bullshit came from either. If he didn't care, he wouldn't do it. If more people looked at wrestling like a job, you wouldn't have as many politics and bad matches. Also, the paycheck is important. It's damn important when you have a family to support...that you never get to see.

 

I've never seen Goldberg sloppy. Ever. I watched most of his matches too. He was green. There is a big difference to being green and being sloppy. He kicked Bret Hart in the head. Oh my. I believe Roddy Piper said it best in his book. It's better to knock a guys teeth out than to pull a punch. Every wrestler knows before they step into the ring that they are risking injury. It's a very physical business. Injuries happy. Goldberg didn't end Brets career either. Sure, it didn't help, but neither did the other ten concussions that Hart had. Neither did wrestling after the Goldberg injury. Neither did competeing daily for 20 years. He was bound to get out sometime or another.

 

Bottom line: Goldberg is coming. And when he shows up, while you're all pissing and moaning, I'll be marking and having a good time.

What about 1999? Wasn't he injured then?

 

While you defended his workrate, his drawing power is much more important. And the guy is just not a draw and hasn't been in for 5 years.

[Guest Coffey]

While you defended his workrate, his drawing power is much more important. And the guy is just not a draw and hasn't been in for 5 years.

Smell the irony as a Regal fan tries to bash Goldberg.

 

To quote myself from another thread:

 

First and foremost, I could give a flying fistfull of fuck if a wrestler draws or not. If I like him, I like him.

 

That's all there is to that.

 

If drawing power was all that mattered, wrestling would never have a mid-card.

[Guest bob_barron]

While you defended his workrate, his drawing power is much more important. And the guy is just not a draw and hasn't been in for 5 years.

Smell the irony as a Regal fan tries to bash Goldberg.

 

To quote myself from another thread:

 

First and foremost, I could give a flying fistfull of fuck if a wrestler draws or not. If I like him, I like him.

 

That's all there is to that.

 

If drawing power was all that mattered, wrestling would never have a mid-card.

What the fuck does Regal have to do with this thread?

 

I'm getting sick and tired of people trying to refute my points by going: Oh well umm REGAL SUCKS! OMG LOL! Why don't you try making logical points or defending your argument?

 

I'm just pointing out that Goldberg is not a draw and that is why they shouldn't pay all that money to bring him in.

[Guest Coffey]

And I'm pointing out that Regal isn't a draw, and the WWE still brought him in. Tell me how that's not relevant.

[Guest bob_barron]

Because they didnt bring in Regal to be a main event player like they are Goldberg.

 

They aren't paying the salary they are to Regal that they will to Goldberg.

 

Regal has not been built up like Goldberg has.

 

If they had signed Regal to a big money deal, where he only worked 10 days a year and all that- then they would be fucking retards.

[Guest Coffey]

Regal doesn't have the star power of Goldberg either, so I say it was completely relevant and at least in the same ballpark.

[Conspiracy_Victim 0]

Is Regal going to become one of the immediate top pushes in the company? Did Regal get a huge build up? Did the WWE promote Regal? There's your relevance. I can just about guarantee that the WWE is going to try to milk this as much as possible. The only question is do they go for the dramatic surprise entrance (which it sounds like they might try, since they're trying to keep the signing quiet) or go the drawn out Steiner route.

[Guest bob_barron]

Give Regal 180 straight wins and then we'll talk.

 

It's not relevant at all. Regal has not been built up like Goldberg at all.

 

I like Regal a lot they would be insane if they pushed him to the main event.

 

You can like Goldberg all you want but I think his signing a mistake for the reasons I've outlined above.