Watching Confidential I thought of some things

[Guest TheGame2705]

I was just thinking about some relevant things.

 

1. Hogan slamming Andre made me think. It was monumental and it was a SCOOP SLAM. Had they done something like this with Big Show where he was a giant and a huge immovable force he would be over huge just by being scary and whoever came along and took him down even basically would have been looked at as a hero. This scenario could have worked exceptionally well with Brock/Show or even better, Angle/Show.

 

2.

WM 7- vs. Washed up Jimmy Snuka

WM 8- vs. a crappy face turned Jake in 6 and 1/2 minutes

WM 9- vs. Gassed to unconsciousness by a tall man in a simulated nude fur suit

WM 11-vs. a fat guy who was only somewhat of a draw nearly a decade ago

WM 12- vs. someone who was obviously on his way out and didn't care what was going on, first bigger profile match at WM

WM 13- vs. an actual threat and won the world title, second big match at WM

WM 14- vs. "brother" in a highly anticipated match, third big WM match

WM 15- vs. Boss Man in the only forgotten HITC match

WM 17- vs. HHH in a match thrown together at the last minute, fourth big match

WM 18- vs. Flair in a NO DQ match, fifth big match

WM 19- w/ Nathan Jones vs. A-Train and Show

 

In 11 WM's he only had 5 big matches. All this talk about bad programs killing heat is somewhat nonsensical. This guy got put into a feud with a disgruntled rapper in a gold/purple clownsuit and Terry Gordy with a black potato sack on his head as well some others and those WM concepts and still made people care and NEVER lost any heat. I do admit that sometimes a bad angle will suck but sometimes it CAN work.

 

3. Fred Durst and girls I've never even heard of compared to Muhammad Ali, Mr. T, Mike Tyson, Cyndi Lauper, Burt Reynolds, etc. Wrestlemania is only important enough for a washed up sellout and beer promoting pseudo-dykes?

 

4. Vince's hard-on for big men. Hey I get one too but I know a wrestler's value. It seems like a myth though.

Big Show? brought in with DQ losses to Mankind, some highlights, and then eventually brought down to being slapped around by Undertaker, in comedy angles, being bitched out by Shane McMahon a man like half his size or less, and jobbed to Jeff Hardy repeatedly.

A-Train? Brought in with the same name as a pierced penis with Droz then into a big guy in sunglasses with a big-chested girl with cowboy hats and recently in a feud with Edge that was disjointed.

Test? HMM let's see, where do we start? Came in as a bodyguard for Motley Crue, then constantly got screwed by JJ who wasn't that over himself, lost his wife to an ass and then was punked out by said ass, joined Train as a big guy with sunglasses, and then in a program where all he does is make references to testicles.

Those are just some examples that I think prove that if Vince was so gaga over big guys that he'd push them better.

 

5. OMG WE NEED TO BILLD MOORE STARZ~!!11

I think we need to realize and actually take into account what Linda and Jim say. It DOES take time to re-build. But the time to re-build and prepare for the future is not when you have a good enough group to do something good for the main event for a while. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

That HHH-Austin vs. UT-Kane situation would have still been good had it not been done right after an excellent Austin/Rock feud and WM match and if it wasn't so dumb. Why have UT/Kane all of a sudden win the tag belts I think the show before the PPV. Why not let another team run with those belts? If they wanted them to win the tag belts then why have HHH win the IC belt? He wasn't at that level since like August 1998 so why was he winning it in May 2001 just about 3 years later? The tag team title situation in the main event I think only works good if the faces have some heat between them or if it's a heel unstoppable duo with two guys teaming up together differing from the norm to try and stop them. There was just so much wrong with April that it could be explained even further so I don't think it was the fault of the four but rather of all the mess surrounding it.

Instead a better scenario for building stars is really when you have no stars or little at all. Look at 1992-1993 which spawned Yokozuna, Bret Hart, and was a great start for Shawn Michaels. Right now they SHOULD NOT be trying to build up Jericho, Booker, or anyone IMO. They'll get overshadowed. Angle got over during this time because whether you like it or not he was shoved down your throat just like Brock Lesnar. Vince sent the message "This is Kurt Angle. He 0wnz. Like him, you'll see alot of him." And at times he was getting overshadowed. I wanna see Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho right now as the guys getting the momentum pushes like Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels except slightly more progressed when the time comes.

 

As a closing note, this isn't anti-smark, this isn't anti-WWE, it really isn't anti-anything, it's just bitching. It's rant plain and simple. I'm thinking of maybe sprucing it and adding more and sending it some places. Anyway hope this starts some debate.

[Guest bob_barron]

WM 14- vs. "brother" in a highly anticipated match, third big WM match

WM 15- vs. Boss Man in the only forgotten HITC match

 

IMO I think Kane v. Taker was the second biggest match at WMXIV behind Austin v. HBK.

 

Taker v. Bossman is not the only forgotten HIAC. Many people forget the two HIAC from RAW

[Guest TheGame2705]

Yeah, that's why I said it was his third biggest match.

[Guest AndrewTS]

All this talk about bad programs killing heat is somewhat nonsensical.

 

Undertaker is the exception, not the rule. His gimmick was always over, though.

[Guest Trivia247]

People tend to wanna forget a HIAC when someone got Lynched in the process heh.

 

Bossman then came back Crazed and YANKED someone's earring out.

[Guest TheGame2705]

All this talk about bad programs killing heat is somewhat nonsensical.

 

Undertaker is the exception, not the rule. His gimmick was always over, though.

Well I named one time where bad programs didn't affect the wrestler, name me one where it did and we can debate it.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

Fred Durst and girls I've never even heard of compared to Muhammad Ali, Mr. T, Mike Tyson, Cyndi Lauper, Burt Reynolds, etc. Wrestlemania is only important enough for a washed up sellout and beer promoting pseudo-dykes?

I'm glad more and more people are realizing this.

 

REAL celebrities = REAL pay-per-view extravaganza = REAL WrestleMania feel, not this contrived nonsense that apologists like 411's Ken Anderson are trying to foist on us as something comparable to the first eight Manias.

[Guest Trivia247]

WM use to be big because it did Reach the Main Stream world and we were able to see Non wrestling affiliated celebrities.....

 

Last couple of years the Main Stream Hype seems to fade....remember back n the day they had Music stars doing America the beautiful? When was the last time you heard that even from Lillian Garcia?

[Guest Anglesault]

All this talk about bad programs killing heat is somewhat nonsensical.

 

Undertaker is the exception, not the rule. His gimmick was always over, though.

Well I named one time where bad programs didn't affect the wrestler, name me one where it did and we can debate it.

Y2J/HHH

[Guest TheGame2705]

Care to elaborate a little more? Are we talking about FL 2000?

[Guest Anglesault]

Version 2.0 (Mania 18)

[Guest Human Fly]

All this talk about bad programs killing heat is somewhat nonsensical.

 

Undertaker is the exception, not the rule. His gimmick was always over, though.

Well I named one time where bad programs didn't affect the wrestler, name me one where it did and we can debate it.

Kane/HHH

RVD/HHH

[Guest MarvinisaLunatic]

The Miller Light Girls aren't really making a "celebrity" appearance..its more like an advertising appearance. They are obviously paying Vince some money for them to be on the show (and have Austin "drink" miller light now). Im willing to bet that Vince paid Celebrities to appear in the past..so this is sort of like the other way around..I was almost expecting them to Announce that Carrot Top was going to be making an appearance..

 

And The Miller Light Girls aren't really any different than the woman from the Wendy's commercial that said "where's the beef?" in terms of status level of celebrity..

[Guest TheGame2705]

Well to be fair this was just the end of Jericho's run. It wasn't a very credible title run for him and no one can say it was. The only person who put him over decently was The Rock and that could only be done so many times and Jericho's standing with the fans is still the same. He was the pussy heel getting taken out by the conquering face, there was nothing wrong with that equation except that maybe it was too soon from HHH's return.

[Guest Anglesault]

He was cleaning dog shit. Jericho was ruined for eight months after that feud.

[syxx2001 0]

glad someone else realized that bring those stupid women in wouldn't be anything special. i wont turn on my 6 oclock news and expect "last night at maniawrestling (they always mess up wrestling names), the two budweiser girls showed up and created a scene. lets take a look."

 

ha, yea right. but if lennox lewis showed up and laid out somebody, it would be on every tv channel from cnn to lifetime. and why not get some hot metal band like linkin park (i dont listen to metal or rock) and get them to perform and promote their new album.

[Guest TheGame2705]

All this talk about bad programs killing heat is somewhat nonsensical.

 

Undertaker is the exception, not the rule. His gimmick was always over, though.

Well I named one time where bad programs didn't affect the wrestler, name me one where it did and we can debate it.

Kane/HHH

RVD/HHH

I do admit that sometimes a bad angle will suck but sometimes it CAN work.

 

That's in the case of HHH/Kane.

 

 

In the case of HHH/RVD, RVD's no less over. He also himself didn't act like he cared he lost all those times.

[Guest Anglesault]

I do admit that sometimes a bad angle will suck but sometimes it CAN work.

 

That's in the case of HHH/Kane.

 

 

THAT worked? How?

[Guest TheGame2705]

He was cleaning dog shit. Jericho was ruined for eight months after that feud.

Backlash- No match after being Undisputed champ but Rock left after WM X-7 as did Bret Hart

 

Judgement Day- HITC which was the rematch and I heard was pretty good

 

KOTR- He lost to RVD

 

Vengeance- Loses to John Cena by rollup...Think Razor/Kid. Razor lost nothing from it like Jericho and Cena gained something from that win.

 

Summerslam- He lost to Flair

 

Unforgiven- He makes Flair tap

 

No Mercy- He and Christian the tag champs defeat Booker and Dust. He gets the pin.

 

Survivor Series- Elimination Chamber. Eliminates Booker and Kane, is eliminated fourth of six by Shawn Michaels.

 

Armageddon- Loses the tag four way being the last eliminated by Booker T

 

Royal Rumble 03- Comes in second and lasts 39 minutes of 53 and a half minute rumble. That's about 3/4 of the entire thing being one of the first two in.

 

No Way Out- Defeats Jeff Hardy by submission

 

 

.....how exactly is that being ruined?

[Guest TheGame2705]

I do admit that sometimes a bad angle will suck but sometimes it CAN work.

 

That's in the case of HHH/Kane.

 

 

THAT worked? How?

I was pointing out the part of the sentence that said "I do admit sometimes a bad angle will suck".

[Guest Anglesault]

Around November it started to get better. March-November is about eight months, right?

 

Backlash- No match after being Undisputed champ but Rock left after WM X-7 as did Bret Hart

 

But Bret and Rocky simply weren't there. They weren't just overlooked.

 

Judgement Day- HITC which was the rematch and I heard was pretty good

 

Not one reason for him to lose that match. Solidified him as a midcard joke.

 

Vengeance- Loses to John Cena by rollup...Think Razor/Kid. Razor lost nothing from it like Jericho and Cena gained something from that win.

 

That loss hurt jericho. Jericho was Cena's bitch that whole feud.

 

No Mercy- He and Christian the tag champs defeat Booker and Dust. He gets the pin.

 

Midcard. same with Flair and RVD,

 

Jericho entered that feud as a main eventer and a champion and left it a midcard joke and is just now recovering.

[Guest Sakura]

You have to understand, on this forum, losing or not main eventing means "buried", "ruined," ect. ESPECIALLY if HHH beats you.

 

 

I have never understood how Jericho losing the HIAC "buried" him, btw.

[Guest Anglesault]

I have never understood how Jericho losing the HIAC "buried" him, btw.

So it saved his main event run and re established him as main eventer?

 

Oh, no wait, it just there to prove that Jericho would never beat HHH. If it wasn't there soley for HHH's benefit, please tell me why? because it sent Jericho on a downward spiral.

[Guest CanadianChick]

Talking about being de-pushed, what about Steiner? I mean, I don't like the guy at all, but he is getting depushed quite a bit. He went from Raw main event at No Way Out to not having a match a week before WrestleMania. Ouch.

[Guest Sakura]

How? It's not like HHH crushed him. It was put over as a tough match that both sold the next SD. His push died because of Cena, the KOR tournament, ect. not that lose. Just as easily as he went on to get pinned clean by a rookie he could have moved on to feud with UT or Hogan.

 

Winning that match wouldn't have done anything for him. Whatever he got from HHH would have been forgotten quickly after his like 700th job to Cena.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I think we need to realize and actually take into account what Linda and Jim say. It DOES take time to re-build. But the time to re-build and prepare for the future is not when you have a good enough group to do something good for the main event for a while. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

But it obviously IS broke. It doesn't take a very long time to create a new star - JR and Linda are just talking out of their asses in trying to justify not putting the 'new stars' over the main eventers.

 

Backlash- No match after being Undisputed champ but Rock left after WM X-7 as did Bret Hart

 

As Angle said, they were just plain gone. Jericho was there. They knew he would be there. They knew he would lose after Mania and needed a program... They didn't give him one. A former Champion not getting even an after-thought by the company.

 

Judgement Day- HITC which was the rematch and I heard was pretty good

 

There was no need for this other than to put HHH over after his loss to Hogan. They needed a way to sell the PPV and they figured Jerichos expendible and HIAC is a sure-sell.

 

KOTR- He lost to RVD

 

Why should Jericho be even competing in the KOTR let alone losing in the first match? This is a guy who was the champion...

 

Vengeance- Loses to John Cena by rollup...Think Razor/Kid. Razor lost nothing from it like Jericho and Cena gained something from that win.

 

Cena GAINED something? Huh? That was a nothing match. Cena didn't do ANYTHING afterwards.

 

Summerslam- He lost to Flair

 

Yep, lost to an old-guy.

 

Unforgiven- He makes Flair tap

 

Yep, the 6 PPV losing streak is over. Finally, Jericho reigns supreme over the man who lost to Rico. Wasn't this for the IC title or something? Didn't Jericho get the IC title once - where they pasted the belt to his pre-existing 'graphic' rather than shoot a new one?

 

No Mercy- He and Christian the tag champs defeat Booker and Dust. He gets the pin.

 

In the tag division. The former WWE Undisputed champion in the tag division.

 

Survivor Series- Elimination Chamber. Eliminates Booker and Kane, is eliminated fourth of six by Shawn Michaels.

 

Everyone other than HHH was buried in that match. Booker, Jericho, RVD, Kane... They couldn't do what an old cripple could do...

 

Armageddon- Loses the tag four way being the last eliminated by Booker T

 

In the tag division. Sweet lady midcard.

 

Royal Rumble 03- Comes in second and lasts 39 minutes of 53 and a half minute rumble. That's about 3/4 of the entire thing being one of the first two in.

 

And eliminated by....Test?

 

No Way Out- Defeats Jeff Hardy by submission

 

No one cares.

 

.....how exactly is that being ruined?

 

It isn't. Jericho has been ruined for quite some time. This just continues to bury him deeper and deeper, making it that much harder from gaining credibility. Jericho has incredible talent, but one more big loss and it's over for him.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

If you look at Jericho before and after wrestling HHH on both blow-off occasions (Fully Loaded 00 and WM 18) you will notice a steep drop in his card placement.

[Guest Sakura]

And it is HHH's fault or did the bookers just decide to put him in the midcard?

[Guest TheGame2705]

I quit. Some of you are so fucking bitter. How is Jericho being buried? He HAS won matches since losing that title that ended up meaning NOTHING. He's no less over with the fans. He's not fighting Unnamed Jobber #2 on the Velocity opener. I'm not going to argue this Jericho bullshit any further, just read what I wrote in number 5 and that'll explain my thoughts on this.

[Guest Anglesault]

How? It's not like HHH crushed him. It was put over as a tough match that both sold the next SD. His push died because of Cena, the KOR tournament, ect. not that lose. Just as easily as he went on to get pinned clean by a rookie he could have moved on to feud with UT or Hogan.

So.

 

Why didn't he win the match? That's all I want to know. Jericho going over a main eventer in HiaC would mean something for him. HHH beating Jericho for the third time meant nothing. Why didn't Jericho win? Y