Xenosaga: don't buy it.

[Guest AndrewTS]

LMAO...that's quite the absurd statement there. Xenogears is one of the few games (along with FF VI, VII, Chrono Trigger, Dragon Quest III and maybe a handful of others--though VII has more outspoken detractors than the others) that is universally heralded by hardcore RPG gamers and tough gaming critics as one of the greatest RPGs ever made for any system.

 

I usually completely dismiss anyone's ideas if they use "LMAO" or similar acronyms. However, I'll be patient this time.

 

Those games had action, as well as a simple, but coherent, story. Xenogears had a good battle system, but sparse action, too much cinema, and a plot that bashed you over the head with the makers' ideas.

 

Frankly, if you liked this game, you have no taste. I also fail to see what stake you have in defending a game you confessed to have not played!

 

And plenty of people who have actually played the game think the game sucks, although a lot of lemmings claim to love it, simply because there is a Square logo on its box. "Universally hailed" my ass. I don't know a great deal of review sites, but even on freakin' Gamefaqs.com you can find some negative reviews. http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/review/20455.html

 

Here's a few more negative reviews for you: http://www.toastyfrog.com/2d/features/xenogears.shtml

 

However, I noticed that most of the positive reviews turn into shameless, hyperbole-filled Square blowjobbery, so none of them have swayed me.

[Guest Edwin MacPhisto]

Mmm, complexity...how I hate thee.

 

Xenogears rules. The second disc is poorly constructed but the story is farkin' amazing, the character arcs are astonishingly deep, particularly for a video game...excepting Rico, who is worthless and who I never ever used.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Mmm, complexity...how I hate thee.

 

Xenogears rules. The second disc is poorly constructed but the story is farkin' amazing, the character arcs are astonishingly deep, particularly for a video game...excepting Rico, who is worthless and who I never ever used.

Even the story was just ripped off from Evangelion, and the game was made to cash in on it's popularity. However, at least Evangelion is an anime, while the Xenos are allegedly "games," and poorly done ones at that.

[Guest Edwin MacPhisto]

Doesn't really matter to me. As far as execution goes, I prefer Xenogears. Eva really falls off at the end for me, and though the second disc is light on exploration, it's big on characters, revelations, and climaxes, excepting...

 

Spoiler (Highlight to Read):

the aforementioned ChuChu crucifixion, which is at least hilarious

 

Love me some Eva, but I'll take Xenogears and its gun-toting priests and weird existentialist madness anyday.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

Here's a thought.

 

Don't listen to game reviews. Why? Nobody's going to like the exact same thing you do. It's worthless.

 

If you're questionable about a game, rent it. If you like it, buy the damn thing.

 

I've seen too many games that have been given low scores..that are in fact good games..because the reviewer is biased against it in some way. (Gamespot, I'm looking at you.)

 

Form your own opinion.

 

~*~

 

I'm only a few hours into Xenosaga, and I like it so far..

 

..but I like .hack//Infection better.

[Guest AndrewTS]

EPD: That would be good and fine, if reviewers didn't praise slipshod game as being great and "epic" when its is really just a self-indulgent load of crap, perversion, and sloooooooow annoying cinemas. However, some people don't rent games, so I'm trying to put a warning out to those people.

 

Don't believe the hype.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

EPD: That would be good and fine, if reviewers didn't praise slipshod game as being great and "epic" when its is really just a self-indulgent load of crap, perversion, and sloooooooow annoying cinemas. However, some people don't rent games, so I'm trying to put a warning out to those people.

 

Don't believe the hype.

Hype sucks..yeah..

 

¬.¬ That'd explain all the "OMG 10! PERFECT GAME!" reviews for stuff like GTA 3 (both of 'em) and MGS2..

[Guest Lightning Flik]

I've seen too many games that have been given low scores..that are in fact good games..because the reviewer is biased against it in some way. (Gamespot, I'm looking at you.)

 

I'm only a few hours into Xenosaga, and I like it so far..

 

..but I like .hack//Infection better.

Gamespot is biased? I never would've guessed it, if for the reoccuring greatness of their Best of <insert year> Awards. And SO non-biased system. [/sarcasm]

 

Seriously though. What review site goes out of their freakin' way to add a Tilt (biased) category to their review charts? Stupidity...

 

Yet back to the point at hand. 'Gears is a good game. Sure it isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread and isn't everyone's flavor of RPGing, but I've played a lot worse RPGs than it.

 

And for refererance its (at least for me):

Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter > .hack//Infection > Xenosaga

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

No offense, but those reviews suck. They didn't even give the game a chance.

 

Post a negative review from a legitimate site next time if you're trying to prove your point. Those reviews are about as accurate as the Catholic Church Weekly's review of Dogma.

 

Finally, if you hate RPGs then of course you won't like Xenosaga. Same as if you hate sports, you probably won't find Madden 2003 too entertaining.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

(spoilers for FFX and FFT in here, for those who care)

 

Oh no! Pervsion! Get some morality in here quick!

 

 

This is from Japan. This is from the country that brings you tentacle rape cartoons. The country that brings you bukakke (dozens of men wank it, drip the results into a cup, and a woman drinks it), and the country where a sweet lovable cartoon like Pokemon can result in fanmade homosexual comics floating around like candy.

 

If I had to put a point on the start of all this, I'd point it at around 1996 with Neon Genesis Evangelion, an anime that is part Giant Monster Fight and part MindFuck. Mix some stories of angst, genetic engineering, lines about playing God and what have you. Finally, throw in a huge amount of religious symbolism (crosses appearing here there and everywhere, lines about being god and whatnot, giant evil monsters called Angels including the first one that's called Adam, etc.) Despite what some fanboys think, all the Christian symbolism in Eva (and shit is there ever a lot of it) adds up to nothing. It seems to exist to add that weird surreal uncomfortable feeling to everything, without really making a religious message.

 

Since Eva became popular, many video games have ripped it off. FF7 takes the WEAPON thing and some of it's psycho shit from Eva. Religion has also has become a popular theme in Japanese entertainment. Check out the corrupt religion in Final Fantasy X. The "god" Yevon is your final boss. Final Fantasy Tactics also reveals at the end that the Church is the source of all the evil in the world. They also have a fixation with angels it seems, although it's quite a bit more positive than the rest of the Christian themes.

 

 

In terms of American reaction, the majority of gamers seem to fall in the "I think Christianity teaches some good messages, but I don't take it too seriously" category. They manage to eat these storylines without really feeling like it's talking down to them. However, if you're in the "I really truly believe there is a supernatural being looking down at me" category, swallow hard or toughen your skin.

 

It's a cultural thing.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

How are these for some reviews from some sources with better reputations?

 

http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/xenosaga/Xenosaga-1.html

 

http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/xenosaga/Xenosaga-2.html

 

http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/xenosaga/Xenosaga-3.html

 

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/387/387085p1.html

 

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/rpg/xenosaga/index.html

 

http://vgamesnet.com/xenosaga/xenosagareview.html

 

http://www.gamespy.com/reviews/february03/xenosagaps2/

 

http://www.ugo.com/channels/games/features/xenosaga/

[Guest HollywoodSpikeJenkins]

I'm about 18 hours into Xenosaga (In fact, I am almost done, even though there is suppose to be 50 hours of game play) and I do agree with some of it sucking (music used over and over again, weak looking attacks, stupid cut scenes with no real purpose.), but some of it is good....kinda...

 

I would recommend it, but only if you have a lot of free time and nothing to do.

[Guest AndrewTS]

EPD:  That would be good and fine, if reviewers didn't praise slipshod game as being great and "epic" when its is really just a self-indulgent load of crap, perversion, and sloooooooow annoying cinemas.  However, some people don't rent games, so I'm trying to put a warning out to those people.

 

Don't believe the hype.

Hype sucks..yeah..

 

¬.¬ That'd explain all the "OMG 10! PERFECT GAME!" reviews for stuff like GTA 3 (both of 'em) and MGS2..

MGS2 suffers at lot of the same problems as Xenogears/saga.

 

Post a negative review from a legitimate site next time if you're trying to prove your point. Those reviews are about as accurate as the Catholic Church Weekly's review of Dogma.

 

They are 100% dead on accurate, aside from understating the battle system (and the Xenosaga review does compliment the battle system).

 

And "legitimate?" It's an independent site that gains nothing either way. If you want reviews from a sponsered big-name site that gets paid advertising money by these sites you will get bias and plenty of it. It's hard to look credible when you have a banner ad for BMX XXX zooming in on a CG woman's crotch.

 

Thats why game magazines like to devote 10 page lay outs to preview a game, but they get a half a page for reviews. Negative reviews just aren't profitable, you know? Not for the advertisers, and not for the magazines. After all that, and especially games like these, the actual players are either so brainwashed or already-indoctrinated Square drones that they keep telling themselves that this game is "epic" and "wonderful" when it's merely an average game in a whole lot of window dressing. Xenogears wasn't terrible, but if there was more concentration on the "game" part of it, it would have deserved its praise rather than being one of the single most overrated games in existence.

 

And most of the positive reviews of the game, which go in any depth at all, either completely skip over the negatives, or list a laundry list of them which would drive down the score of nearly any other game.

 

So, like the game all you want, but praising or scoring it anything above a "7" out of 10 all you want seems absolutely absurd--especially when all these games' apologists can't seem to provide a solid leg to stand on.

 

Having never played Xenosaga--and after 'gears, I never will since it's shooting for the same style of gameplay and "storytelling"--I have little incentive to seek out or allegedly 'play' this "thrilling," "epic" sequel. Those who didn't suffer through 'gears may be suckered into it.

 

Well, enjoy playing Xenosaga. Enjoy taking your cash and telling Monolith you love obtuse, clunky exposition that fills those game disc like the excrement of 6 very obese cats using a single litterbox, with only a few shiny chunks of gameplay in there. Enjoy contributing to gaming moving a bit more towards the FMV games that were found on Sega CD. The handbasket gaming goes to hell in will be the result of your own weaving.

[Guest AndrewTS]

It's a cultural thing.

 

Xenogears sold poorly in Japan. Care to explain why?

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Gee Andrew....I usually like your posts. Not now. See what you have here is YOUR OPINION. It's not a fact....it's your opinion. You hated the game, that's great.

I liked the game. I liked the characters, the story, and the music.

But you didn't...I respect that.

But to tell me that I have no taste for liking it.....well that's bullshit plain and simple.

Don't go toting your holier than thou opinion around as if it were fact. That's the symptoms of a complete asshole. Are you an asshole?

[Guest AndrewTS]

While the scope and breadth that Monolith was aiming for with Xenosaga is evident in Der Wille zur Macht, this ambitious episode may be too confounding for its own good. Taken as an introduction to the series, the game’s events are within context, but on its own, the plot is so bulbous that it threatens to crush the game under its own girth.

 

Many games have become famous, or infamous, for their frequent and lengthy cutscenes. Final Fantasy X, The Getaway, and Metal Gear Solid 2 are just to name a few. Take all those games, add their cinemas together, and they still won’t equal near the amplitude of Xenosaga. Some cutscenes even top 45 minutes; watching them for a half-hour straight isn’t uncommon.

 

sometimes these two things – cinemas versus gameplay – feel a little too disjointed, as if they’re in two totally different leagues and the difference between them is pronounce.

 

abysmally long cutscenes

 

It’s somewhat of a slow starter, but once you reach about twenty hours then the game really kicks into gear and you’re undeniably hooked.

 

A day of game time until it gets interesting. Wheee...I heard similar claims about 'Gears.

 

The most controversial decision in the development of Xenosaga is unquestionably the game’s reliance on cinemas to tell the narrative. Sure, games have been getting more dialogue-heavy as of late -- but XS leaves them all in the dust. Its cinemas can stretch as long as 45 minutes.

 

The game is steeped in both technological and mystical terminology to a similar degree as seminal anime work Neon Genesis Evangelion, an obvious but mostly subtle influence to XS’ director Tetsuya Takahashi in both this game and its Square-published predecessor and prototype, Xenogears. These elements can obfuscate the plot from time to time; if you’re hardy enough to stand Star Trek: The Next Generation, though, you’ll slip right into Xenosaga’s narrative with ease, jargon and all.

 

While Takahashi takes his cues from the established conventions of anime and games, like any talented director he uses convention as a springboard from which to launch his own ideas instead of a cage for them to be locked inside. It’s an important distinction, but it still means that if you’re frustrated by the disposable symbolism and cryptic, stylized characterizations of anime, you might find Xenosaga frustrating or dull -- personally, I love this stuff, and I took great pleasure in the game’s cinemas.

 

All quotes from those reviews. Gee, sounds fun.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

I think it is fun. You don't. Difference of opinion.

[Guest AndrewTS]

On a message board, you compare and defend your opinions. Either do it or don't get involved in the topic. If this was in public, that would be an asshole trait. It isn't, so don't try to use that defense.

 

I've yet to see some one provide a convincing argument for these games.

 

"Reviews" which are just disguised ads for the game which gloss over the negative, crippling flaws of a game are not swaying me at all. Because it seems no one can really refute the irrefutable: the "games" are less games than cutscenes. Cutscenes which are trying to tell a story that works better as literature than a polygon-rendered RPG that uses freaky unappealing characters, clunky exposition, and religious symbolism--for the hell of it. JotW even confesses it. If there's nothing the symbolism is symbolizing, then why even have it?

 

If you like it, go right ahead. Just don't tell yourself it's something it isn't.

 

And on that note, goodnight...

[Guest creativename]

I usually completely dismiss anyone's ideas if they use "LMAO" or similar acronyms.  However, I'll be patient this time.

Ooh condescension

 

Frankly, if you liked this game, you have no taste.

Real defensible statement there.

 

I also fail to see what stake you have in defending a game you confessed to have not played!

My intent is not to defend the game, but to point out the complete lunacy of your hate-mongering.

 

And plenty of people who have actually played the game think the game sucks

Plenty of people hate anything. As I said, it is relatively rare to find negative opinions on this game. Of course you could find dozens of reviews that bash the game in under a minute by searching the web--this proves nothing. You have to look at the big picture, and the consensus is positive to an extreme amount for Xenogears.

 

although a lot of lemmings claim to love it, simply because there is a Square logo on its box.

Very strange thing to say, considering that most "lemming" type gamers would have never played this game. And of course pro-Square bias has nothing to do with anything, since most know they only published the game, and more importantly a large number of outspoken Xenogears fans hate FF etc....the flame wars were ubiquitous back in the day, and still are to some extent. Interestingly, Xenogears fans always considered FF fans "lemmings".

 

"Universally hailed" my ass.

The game IS "universally" hailed--this is a fact. No doubt tens of thousands of people must have disliked/hated it, and while that means it's far from "universally" hailed by a strict definition, "universally hailed" is a universally inappropriate term if you go by that definition. Whenever someone says "universally hailed", it clearly means a huge majority rather than "100% of the population". And Xenogears is undoubtedly one of the most beloved RPGs ever, with a shockingly small number of negative opinions on it, when compared to the amount of "warm fuzzy feelings" it always seems to generate among gamers. Clearly it goes without saying that negative opinions on the game are perfectly valid; it's your stance against people who like a game which is adored to such an extreme extent that I have a problem with.

 

Anyway, the best measure of how "beloved" a game is by the masses is its user score on GameRankings.com. This site is the imdb of video games, though it only covers games released 1995 (94?) or after. Among all games with 20 or more votes, for home consoles or PC, Xenogears came in 26th with a score of 8.7. 9.0 is the highest score on the list. Even ignoring this, you can't deny that Xenogears is an insanely popular game among hardcore RPG fans. To say that these people then have "no taste" is just lame and, frankly, beneath you. You should know better Though I'm guessing you're just behaving this way because lashing out at Xenogears fans helps to alleviate the extreme boredom you clearly experienced while playing it.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

It's a cultural thing.

 

Xenogears sold poorly in Japan. Care to explain why?

I've never played either Xeno game. I'm just saying.

 

And for what it's worth, RPGamer has a bazillion editorials over this issue. Check all of 1998. This issue is really not-new.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Oh yeah like your defense is much better. "This is a message board. So I can say whatever the hell I want and spout off my god damned opinion as if it were a fact. And anyone that comes to me and says otherwise is an idiot with poor taste." Yeah great defense for yourself there.

Listen...I liked the game b/c I enjoyed the story, I enjoyed the fighting, I enjoyed the music, and I enjoyed the characters. What more do you want? Do you want me to give you a technical run down and what I did and didn't like about each frame in the game? That's why I like the game. And I don't really have to present you with more. Say I have poor taste all I want......but I know that I like it and I do not have poor taste and you're just being an ass if you try to tell me otherwise.

Hey look 2 can play at the smarmy condescending asshole game.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Damn... Andrew treats Xenosaga like AS treats Brock.

 

Too funny.

 

 

If you wanna see a couple of really overrated games, try the last two GTA games. I got so bored by both of them that I started playing FF 8 again...

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

Damn... Andrew treats Xenosaga like AS treats Brock.

 

Too funny.

 

 

If you wanna see a couple of really overrated games, try the last two GTA games. I got so bored by both of them that I started playing FF 8 again...

Kinda off topic, but eh.

 

GTA -is- kinda fun for a little while, but it fades. Not really worthy of all the praise it was given, if you ask me.

 

Oh, yeah.

 

Morrowind (PC) > .hack//Infection > Xenosaga.

 

Gimme a while. I just got my PS2, so I've got some serious catching up to do RPG wise.

[Guest Lightning Flik]

Andrew, I don't think I or any of the "tasteless people" gloss over the flaws of the game(s). Actually, we admit that 'Gear/'Saga could've been better. We're not disputing the fact. We are just saying we enjoyed the game(s), and so we stated our opinion on it. Just as you state your distaste for the game.

 

May I also ask if you had played Saga yourself? Just because you haven't stated any personal experience with playing Saga, but rather go by what other people comment on, and then critize from there.

 

(With that, I'm done for night as well)

Edited March 24, 2003 by Lightning Flik

[Guest EricMM]

"Reviews" which are just disguised ads for the game which gloss over the negative, crippling flaws of a game are not swaying me at all. Because it seems no one can really refute the irrefutable: the "games" are less games than cutscenes.

 

Andrew to be honest, it seems that you just like reviews that agree with your opinion. Funny how this is the exact same thing that you accuse Square fan boys of doing. You said positive reviews did not address key points, but negative reviews are spot on.

 

Fuck, maybe you're right, it's 3 am and no way I'm reading all those reviews. But from just reading the thread it sounds like a LOT more people liked Xenosaga than didn't.

 

Hell, everyone knows that Xenogears was a faulty RPG. It had the worst platforming ever, it had pacing problems, and the story was decidedly odd. No one is (or should be anyways) calling it the best RPG ever, it's not. But it certainly did things that Final Fantasy wasn't doing at the time. You don't even sound like an RPG fan Andrew, you sound like someone who hates cutscenes. RPG's are not meant to be played in 20 minute chunks. If you don't have an hour to spend on it, don't sit down and play it. And just because final fantasy 6 and 7 were 60 minutes long doesn't mean every RPG has to be. Even if Xenogears is only 16 hours long without cutscenes, if it's got a good battle system and has a good story, let it be. If you don't like cutscenes play something like Dark Cloud 2, you can skip every cutscene in that game

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

I'm seriously thinking that this is basically what he wants.

 

Also, try reading some of the reader reviews (although beware of spoilers), there's a number of people at that site who find the game entertaining and only mildly offensive.

 

Good night.

[Guest CED Ordonez]

To each his own says the man that shrugged upon completing Final Fantasy X, got bored of GTA: Vice City after the first week, and still plays Gran Turismo 3 to this very day.

[Conspiracy_Victim 0]

I bought it and played about 10-15 hours in, then hopped over for Hack to play it through, seeing as how it was relatively short.

 

What I gleaned through my short time with Saga is that yes, there are some lengthy cutscenes. However, they are supposed to tell a story. This is only chapter 1 of a multipart story. This is supposed to establish everything that comes after it (characters, beliefs, backstory, etc.). You can't progress a story that takes place across a whole galaxy without some cutscenes. The creators know that, unless the series gets cut, they've got a limited number of games to create a huge story. The creates the need for the cutscenes.

 

Were some of the scenes lengthy? Yep. Was I bored? Nope. Because the story was kept moving along and I peronsally enjoyed it. You had conflict and interaction, even among minor characters that didn't make it off the ship you start off on.

 

By the way, you bash someone for defending the game even though they never played it when you're bashing the game and YOU never played it. All you do is point out negative reviews and say "See? I told you so!" Isn't this what you accused "fanboys" of doing?People agree with you, and people disagree with you. If someone wants to buy it, fine, if not oh well they'll find something that's more their cup of tea.

[syxx2001 0]

xenosaga isn't a sequal for xenogears. i dont think they have anything to do with each other.

 

with that being said, xenosaga does blow. all it has is pretty graphics

[Guest KoR Fungus]

Eh, I personally think Xenogears is the second most overrated videogame of all time (behind FF4), but I'm still somewhat interested in Xenosaga. It sounds like Xenosaga will have more of the great plot and less of the horrific, unspeakably awful gameplay, so that sounds good to me. Xenogears would have been great if it wasn't unplayable.