Is America blowing it?

Rob E Dangerously · March 27, 2003

I should say that I am a cynic.

Although, it seems that from some reports, the invasion in Iraq is not going well at all.

Sure, we're moving towards Baghdad. But, the Coalition hasn't moved into Basra. The coalition is still in battles along the front lines. The supply lines are also being stretched.

If we control cities and important areas, then the people fighting us can still attack from other areas, or the 'secure' areas.

The commanders are being very stubborn about the fighting of the war. In other words, they will fight it with guys who are out there. Granted, most Iraqis who would fight the US like that will die quickly. With the Iraqis still in the houses, eventually they will have to be flushed out. This pattycake crap is gonna have to be ignored and people who are still firing from a house will eventually get theirs. The ideas of "irregulars" is correct in the sense that these are Iraqi police agencies and the such. Sorta like if the US fought the SS members in Germany. This is Urban Warfare and the US is not looking too impressive in stopping it. Even small groups of people like militiamen are slowing the US advance.

The reason our men are in Iraq is WMDs. What have we found so far? a chemical plant. No chemical weapons. We also found biochem suits in a hospital. Gee.. that means they expect it and that they wouldn't be keeping these in case of something where there was a bio/chem attack, right? :lol: Not to mention the "Scuds", which are batting .000 at being meaningful, thanks to America's super paranoid Patriot "fire at anything" Missile (The Patriots firing at RAF and US planes is a HUGE fuckup), they've been neutralized. How many missile attacks been launched on Kuwait since the US started moving into Southern Iraq?

The evidence is very flaky. Granted, if you had any bioweapons, you'd be taking them and running the fuck away from American troops right now.

More troops are being called up to go to Iraq. More tanks and supplies are coming in. Personal opinion: Striking the bunker on Wednesday Night was a mistake in the sense of it rushed the US into a war which could have been prepared for, for another day. Plus, the "Saddam is dead/dying" stuff is speculation. He's certainly gonna have a problem with making any more speeches since Iraqi TV got it's tower bombed.

This war will not end with the death of Saddam and his men.

This war will simmer on with various resistance and other Iraqis who grow sick of the US forces.

I do not expect America to live up to the promises about the Iraqis owning the fate of their natural resources. It'll be tapped and poured. I do not expect "freedom" in a democratic election sense, since there's always the shot of Iraq electing a leader who is Shiite, or symphaizes with Iran. (Although, you never know) It wouldn't be the first time that the US hasn't exactly been eager to deliver on deals.

What is the 'end' gonna be here? Killing and arresting leaders in Baghdad? a trial? leading to elections (or maybe not elections)

In these times, hope for the best. Don't be too stunned if alot of bad stuff happens. Hopefully our POWs will come home soon. Hopefully this will be a war that is one that results in a better future for Iraq.

But, i'm no blind idealist either.

March 27, 2003

Trust Me. The war is progessing just fine. The first view days suprise me more, than what's happening know. Which isn't has severe as some people act like.

Remember that weather has been the biggest problem for coalition forces.

Finally don't be suprised if General Franks throw a curveball when it comes to Baghad.

March 27, 2003

Franks does seem like a shifty, crafty bastard. I'm kinda interested to see what he and his crew have cooked up for Baghdad itself.

March 27, 2003

Rob, I think you are over reacting a little. It has only been a week for Christ's sake. The way you're writing it seems like you expected it to be over by now.

How much evidence of WMD do you expect u sto find in the first week when there aren't any people looking yet? The stuff we've found so far has been stumbled upon by our troops, not sought out. That will come after the war. we haev a lot more pressing matters to worry about then searching the country right now. We have to, you know, win the fucking war.

You're obviously very cynical, which is fine but I think you should look at this with a more open mind.

The biggest problem with undertaking such a huge thing is people like you who have no patience and are always talkign up the doom and gloom while ignorign the good. Just winnign the war will take time, no one in the administration said it would be easy or fast, the Gulf War took 30+ days, we've been over there for 7. Calm down and have some patience.

I was talking to one of my professors last week (the day after the strike at Saddam)about the war and said something like, "Well, Karsai (sp?) controls whole neighborhoods in Afghanistan"

My response:

"It's been, what 8-9 months? How long did it take to build America?"

He just looked at me, cocked his head to the side and shrugged. This is a PHD and he never thought of it that way because he's an anti-American Commie (that's true, not just my opinion). There are always going to be people who are lookign at the worst and jumping all over it despite it not being that bad.

Rebuilding Iraq will take very long time, years. There are about 25 million people there who haev never been free, who have never lived without fear of the gov't,, and who need to learn what that's like. The Iraqis aren't like you or I, we have never lived like they have, we haven't been tortured for disagreeing with our gov't, we haevn't been oppressed in an true sense of the word. Erasing this form the psyche of 25 million people doesn't happen over night, that might take a generation or 2. Vietnam was 30 years ago but people still base a lot of their politics on that war. It takes time to get that many people to come around. Some of them never will.

Iraq will not be a thrivign freedom loving democracy next week, next month, and most likely not next year. Only time will tell if they will become one.

Start talking about the failures of AMerica, when we actually fail, not years before an informed decision can be made.

March 28, 2003

The fact is we don't really know diddly shit about what's going on. We get 10% of the info blown way out of proportion. The press gets one story from one embedded reporter and goes nuts with it.

Rob the fact is you're not in the CIA. Nor were you involved in the meeting in which the President gave the go-ahead on the Saddam thing.

Call it a mistake if we lose 100,000 troops and withdraw.

Rob E Dangerously · March 28, 2003

The way you're writing it seems like you expected it to be over by now.

I sensed the talk of "Special forces/somebody getting Saddam within hours of the start of war" was unrealistic. I didn't expect a one week war, but, it's not encouraging when you're facing small resistance from various gangs in Iraq.

How much evidence of WMD do you expect u sto find in the first week when there aren't any people looking yet? The stuff we've found so far has been stumbled upon by our troops, not sought out. That will come after the war.

Honestly, that "we'll find them later" idea probably isn't gonna fly with some people. But, I'm sure people wouldn't mind if nothing was found at all. (except for the ones angered at the lack of a real reason to be there)

we have a lot more pressing matters to worry about then searching the country right now. We have to, you know, win the fucking war.

and that's looking a bit tough right now at a few points.

the Gulf War took 30+ days, we've been over there for 7. Calm down and have some patience.

The Gulf War involved the liberation of Kuwait, a much smaller country than Iraq.

One more note, it took TWO DAYS from the start of ground operations to the pullout of Iraqis from Kuwait. The rest was air strikes. This is not conducted like the Gulf War.

Rebuilding Iraq will take very long time, years. There are about 25 million people there who haev never been free, who have never lived without fear of the gov't,, and who need to learn what that's like. The Iraqis aren't like you or I, we have never lived like they have, we haven't been tortured for disagreeing with our gov't, we haevn't been oppressed in an true sense of the word. Erasing this form the psyche of 25 million people doesn't happen over night, that might take a generation or 2.

True... it'll also take alot of luck to get this system though. Preferably with a modest leader who won't abuse his power. Who can be sure who that man will be?

Iraq will not be a thrivign freedom loving democracy next week, next month, and most likely not next year. Only time will tell if they will become one.

True.

March 28, 2003

Honestly, that "we'll find them later" idea probably isn't gonna fly with some people. But, I'm sure people wouldn't mind if nothing was found at all. (except for the ones angered at the lack of a real reason to be there)

No, the excuse probably won't fly with them, but it doesn't matter too much. By the 2004 election we (unless something horribly goes wrong) will know conclusively whether Iraq has WMD or not. It doesn't matter what people think now so much as what they think in November 2004.

March 28, 2003

I agree that this doomsaying is far too premature.

The war is only a week old. I don't know the approximate number of confirmed dead, but I don't believe it's over 100 (it may not even be half that number).

If we'd been in there 8 months, instead of 8 days, maybe this criticism would hold more weight.

March 28, 2003

Coalition casualties are definitely below 100, but POWs and MIAs bring the total to around 50.

Iraq says civilian casualties are at 350, so drop that by about half, and Iraqi casualties are probably around 1,000 so far. That's just speculation, though.

EDIT: CNN reports 47 coalition dead as of yesterday. Speculation is 30 or so MIA and POW.

March 28, 2003

Trust Me. The war is progessing just fine.

Sorry, but this reminds me so much of this that I had to laugh.

March 28, 2003

Coalition casualties are definitely below 100, but POWs and MIAs bring the total to around 50.

Civilian casualties are around 400, and Iraqi casualties are probably around 1,000 so far.

EDIT: CNN reports 47 coalition dead as of yesterday. Speculation is 30 or so MIA and POW.

Tyler. Who is your source on Iraqi civilian casualtites?

Remember that something like half of the coalition casualties have been caused by friendly fire,and accident.

March 28, 2003

Never mind, I fucked up. That was Iraq's estimate.

Iraq's estimate is 350, but that's probably inflated.

Cut it in half and say 175.

March 28, 2003

It's not surprising that so many people died considering that we have to bomb their cities, hospitals, etc to get at their weapons and bunkers. And I'm sure hundreds if not thousands will die once we get into Baghdad. But that will be the fault of the Iraqis who pulled the war into the cities, not us.

March 28, 2003

Never mind, I fucked up. That was Iraq's estimate.

Iraq's estimate is 350, but that's probably inflated.

Cut it in half and say 175.

Iraq's estimate is actually 4000, but they have got to be full of shit with that figure. So I'd be willing to agree with 350.

March 28, 2003

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/27/...ster/index.html

350.

March 28, 2003

As far as all the doom & gloom "premature" talk. Umm, well isn't that why we are in this war in the first place, because Bush swore up and down that America was gonna get attacked, we came out with the stupid color system for terrorism, danger, you couldn't turn on the tv without instructions on how to protect your house from a bomb blast. Now, THAT sounds like doom & gloom talk. The drum of war was beaten severely.

March 28, 2003

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/27/...ster/index.html

350.

Tyler, this quote comes off that same page(link)

-Total Iraqi civilian casualties -- including dead and wounded -- come to about 4,000; Iraqi officials said they are trying to get more accurate figures.

March 28, 2003

For those of us in the US, if you want impartial news, go to a non-US web page for reports/news. I've been using cbc.ca for most of my reports.

CNN is pretty biased, and in my opinion pretty much a tool for the military.

(and, in my opinion, nothing is funnier than MTV's liberal propaganda ... although it scares me that there's kids who might think that MTV has any fucking clue what it's talking about)

March 28, 2003

I'd assume the majority, though, were military.

March 28, 2003

In this information age of instant gratification and communication, people have forgotten that military campaigns take time if we want to have the lowest number of casualties possible and not totally get picked apart. This nation is WAY too impatient. I can only imagine if people from today went into the past and had to sit through FOUR YEARS of the second world war.

March 28, 2003

In this information age of instant gratification and communication, people have forgotten that military campaigns take time if we want to have the lowest number of casualties possible and not totally get picked apart. This nation is WAY too impatient. I can only imagine if people from today went into the past and had to sit through FOUR YEARS of the second world war.

How about the 11 years of Vietnam?

March 28, 2003

Also, we're dropping insanely precise bombs. So we're not attacking places where Civilians are supposed to be, AND we're warning them not to be where bombs are falling.

March 28, 2003

Also, we're dropping insanely precise bombs. So we're not attacking places where Civilians are supposed to be, AND we're warning them not to be where bombs are falling.

What about the one that hit Iran?

March 28, 2003

Also, we're dropping insanely precise bombs.

Yeah sure. They told us they could go through doorways last time, too.

Although GPS is a nice technology that isn't affected by the smoke of burning oil, it's easy enough to jam as well, as I mentioned in another thread.

March 28, 2003

I'm still looking for an answer as to how we can hit the wrong freakin' country with these precision bombs

March 28, 2003

Even very precise bombs can go off course at times. Our military technology might be good, and it might be well ahead of anyone else's, but like all technology, it is fallable.

March 28, 2003

I'm still looking for an answer as to how we can hit the wrong freakin' country with these precision bombs

This is so weird since we were just talking, but anyways...

Just found this on CNN.com. Enjoy =-D.

March 28, 2003

I don't think that the US is blowing it. Of course I wanted this thing to be short and sweet and I am not really behind the reasons why we are in this war to begin with. I am not suprised that this is not going to be complete cake walk. This is going to take some time, months, maybe years(with rebuilding). I think that the US is making progress, but I do think that many of the "higher-ups" and media might have underestimated the fight in the Iraqis. It reminds me of an injured animal that is cornered. Just when you think you have it cornered, it ends up striking at you with all of it's might.

Also, throw in the possibility of chemical weapons being used, and this thing could take some time. But, I am hoping it ends soon because then we won't lose many of our troops and won't end up killing more Iraqi citizens.

March 28, 2003

The evidence is very flaky. Granted, if you had any bioweapons, you'd be taking them and running the fuck away from American troops right now.

Whoa, if you are saying they don't have WMD then you are wrong. Sorry, there is TONS of evidence dating back 20 years or so they were acquiring these things, and not a hell of a lot that they got rid of anything. As well, Blix stated he though they would not use the WMD because it would turn world opinion, not because they didn't have them. Even he knows.

They've bought huge aluminum tubes that can only be used to enrich uranium. They bought tons of atropine, which is used to offset exposure to chemical attacks. They have tens of thousands of chemical suits, thousand of which have been already found. They have TENS of thousands of gallons of chemicals they admit to making, but can't seem to remember where they went.

The US found a drone plane designed to spray chemicals. Don't say it was to water crops or something like that...you don't have to develop technology to remote water crops.

They have used WMD against IRAN and against their own population in the past.

You can find tons of evidence that they have these things. Yes, you can find people who say they don't. But they have no backup to their arguments. Stating something you'd like to be true doesn't make it true.

These are all FACTS.

I'm not saying your opinion is invalid, but saying the evidence is flaky is ridiculous. That's only seeing what you choose to. This has nothing to do with your post against war. But, shit - be informed.

niko

March 28, 2003

Also, we're dropping insanely precise bombs.

Yeah sure. They told us they could go through doorways last time, too.

Although GPS is a nice technology that isn't affected by the smoke of burning oil, it's easy enough to jam as well, as I mentioned in another thread.

Actually, the military said they have found a few ways around the jamming equipment the Iraqis bought. It was on CNN only a few days ago.

Is America blowing it?

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