Misawa Kawada 94

[Guest wildpegasus]

First off I'd like to say that I loved this match but can't understand why it's usually given 5 stars. The ending of the match is awesome but the beginning really isn't that good. Compared to the beginnings of say Misawa and Kobashi the beginning of Misawa and Kawada isn't that realistic. Still though a great match. I'd give it 4 1/4 stars.

[Guest Jubuki]

"Realistic"?

 

...

 

How much AJ do you have?

 

And I mean PRE-95 AJ. How much that builds into this match? Seen Jumbo/Tenryu, maybe? Seen the three big singles matches Misawa & Kawada had previous to this? The tag title matches? Doc/Kawada, Misawa/Furnas, or Misawa/Kawada from that year's Champion Carnival series? Look past the moves, kid, and leave the snowflakes at home for a while.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Calm down Jubuki. You need to mellow out. Snowflakes are only an opinion. I have seen Doc-Kawada and previous Misawa Kawada. However I haven't seen Jumbo Tenryu. What I ment about the beginning of the famous Misawa Kawada match is that Kawada doesn't give off the impression that he finally wants to beat Misawa in the early stages of the match. He's too laid back in my opinion. Now I know they were trying to build the match to a climax but Misawa Kobashi also do this in their 1/20/97 match and the beginning of that match doesn't have that same problem.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Your missing the point, entirely. Kawada couldn't go in there, running and swinging, he had to stay calm and collective much like The Man himself.

 

Besides Kawada wasn't going for the pin early on, anyway. He went out there to punish Misawa, pay him back for all the humilation he had to suffer throughout 93. In fact, he had Misawa beat and right where he wanted him, until Misawa desperatly killed his momentum by doing something he never did before, attacking Kawada's injured leg.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"Your missing the point, entirely. Kawada couldn't go in there, running and swinging, he had to stay calm and collective much like The Man himself."

 

But all that psychology is boring. Kawada working on Misawa's neck, whats up with that? That is like 70's work. And Misawa on Kawada's leg, gee willackers, that's even worse. Why couldn't he strap on some real flashy submissions?

 

"Calm down Jubuki. You need to mellow out. Snowflakes are only an opinion."

 

No. Snowflakes are valid when people actually know how to give them out. It's kind of like giving out grades to a class of students. The teacher has to know what an A paper is compared to a C paper. That's not subjective.

 

Tim

[Guest Jubuki]

Did you even watch the match?

 

Ever heard of "being careful in the early going so you don't screw up?" Kawada takes it a little easy, but when he does crank it up, he gets caught going for too much, and Misawa backdrops him rather viciously. Kawada has to take a breather on the floor to recover from the almost-Dangerous-Backdrop. Of course, that turns right back around once Misawa gets him out on the floor the second time, when he runs right into an elbow off a dive. Beginning of the match is fine - they don't have to sit there and whip out big moves left and right in the first few minutes because they can do more with less, and there's precious little about Kawada that's "laid back" once he starts booting someone in the face.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Don't get me wrong. I liked the start of this match. I didn't find it boring at all. I love physcology as much as anyone. This match though in the beginning stages just didn't give me the impression that these two were really trying to defeat each other. And if they're out there being "lackadasial" there's no reason that the other opponent couldn't get a real quick knockout blow or submission hold and win the match. This factor knocks down the match a little bit for me.

 

And snowflakes are opinions.Wrestling is predertimened. A match is designed to make the crowd cheer and appreciate it. That makes people come back to the arena. If the combined movements of Misawa and Kawada make you appreciate it enough to give it 5 stars, then it is 5 stars. If you appreciate it on the 3 star level, then it's 3 stars.

Now that I think about it Misawa and Kawada is 41/2 stars IMO.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

They are not being lackadasial, that would imply that they were lazy. Misawa and Kawada had meet countless times in tags and singles, they knew each other's every move. IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE TO SCORE A QUICK KNOCKOUT OR SUBMISSION.

 

They took that route in their first two singles matches, 92(Dangerous Backdrop right off the bat) and 93(Tiger driver right off the bat). That time had come and gone, they weren't going to fuck up and give the other guy a big move in the opening of the single most important match of their careers.

[Guest Jubuki]

Like I told you before, like you should have paid attention to the first time - look past the moves. That's what makes it the best singles match in All Japan's history.

[Guest wildpegasus]

It's never impossable to get a quick knockout or submission. Not when the action is so stiff.

Your point is really good there Coffin Surfer(about their earlier matches) but the beginning of this match still left me with the impression that they were leaving each other too much opening for an opponent to hit a big time move and get a substansial advantage early in the match. Being one of their biggest matches in their careers I don't think they could afford to do this. Although perhaps I'm being too picky. Always good to get someone else's opinion though. Thanks for the analysis.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Why not actually listen to what other people are saying then? I haven't even seen the match yet, or any of the matches preceeding it, but just from what people have said in this thread I understand why they weren't going full pelt at the beginning.

 

In their previous matches they had gone for this approach, and it never really got either of them anywhere. In 92 Kawada tried the Dangerous Backdrop very early, and it didn't work. In 93 Misawa tried the Tiger Suplex very early, and it didn't work for him either. So for starters, they already know BASED ON THEIR PREVIOUS MATCHES that even if they did score a big move early, it wouldn't really help them. They also know that because it happened in their last couple of matches, the other guy is expecting them to try something like that, and would likely defend against it.

 

Watch the matches, listen to people.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

I had more of a problem with the ruthless team of Kawada/Taue not being more aggressive in the 10/15/95 tag match when Misawa was Chokeslamed from the apron to the outside. They had Kobashi isolated but didn't use it to their advantage as much as they could have. There was too much testing of strenght when they could have been double-teaming Kobashi and seeing if they can either finish him off or hurt him to a high degree before Misawa is able to become involved in the match again. It was a great match but I feel the drama could have been better within that 15 minute period.

 

 

As for the 6/94 MM/Kawada match the build was great. The obvious familiarity factor was evident as they had numerous strike sequences filled with moves and countermoves which were also countered. Neither wrestler could gain a great deal of momentum and they didn't take the chances that would allow for that possibly lethal momentum swing. There was a sense of urgency but they never got carried away and leave themselves vulnerable. One could either go straight for the KO but if one doesn't succeed one will be left open for a big punch themselves. In cases of familiarity it's best to fight smartly and wrestle safely until one has the opportunity to exploit the weakness of one's opponent and then go for the kill.

[Guest wolverine]

If you've followed the story that led up to this match with a meticulous attention to detail, few others will have the same kind of impact on a viewer. There is far too much depth and drama on display, that it's nearly impossible to find something else that comes close. Kawada, the perennial bridesmaid and #2 native, at this point had finally reached the level to where the thought of defeating Misawa was more than just a dream - it was reality. Twenty-five minutes into the Champion Carnival Final against Steve Williams two months previous, he used a powerbomb en route to his biggest career accomplishment to date. But, against The Man, it registered only a 2-count on the Richter scale (although if you listened to the crowd's reaction at Budokan, it would've certainly seemed a lot higher!). The shit was on, so to speak, after that. The only other match I've seen that equals the levels of work that Misawa & Kawada reach at that point would be Hokuto vs. Kandori, which very well might be better at conveying that type of emotion, but nonetheless, it's simply a classic battle of wills that had reached a boiling point. Amazingly rich.

 

From a technical standpoint, Tamura/Kohsaka 6/27/98 is better than 6/3/94. Hell, it's better than any match if you just look at it from a pure wrestling view. It's an apples and oranges comparison to be sure, as both excel at what it is they set out to accomplish, but for my money, this Misawa/Kawada encounter supercedes every other singles match I've seen when it comes to taking an art form to its fullest potential through subtle and not so subtle actions. Perfect, indeed.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Wolvernie did a great job of summing it all up, as to why the match is so beloved.

 

If you followed the story, and know the meaning behind the moves, it's one of the most emotional and deepest matches you'll find.

 

Another thing to add about the Steven Williams match is the meaning behind the Koppo Kick. When Williams attempted to finish Kawada with a second Dangerous Backdrop, Kawada fought out with a reverse chop, and Koppo Kick to kill Doc's momentum. Kawada would than go on to win the match.

 

At the end of 6/3/94, Misawa attempted to finish Kawada like he did in their last match with the Dangerous Germans, but Kawada escapes with none other than the reverse chop and Koppo Kick. Being that The Williams Carnie match is still fresh on their minds, the crowd goes into a damn riot.

 

In 6/3/94, even things as simple as countering a German, have incredibly deep meaning to it, that draws a reaction from the viewer.

[Guest wildpegasus]

All right, I see why you give this match rave props. The story from previous matchups which is why I love Bret-Benoit so much. However, I still give it 4 1/2 stars. Perhaps part of the reason is that I can't buy the powerbomb in Japan finishing off Misawa especially with all off Kawada's and Misawa's powerful moveset. The powerbomb seems to be anticlamitic. I realise it is Kawada's big time move but the perception of the powerbomb being weaker is still there to me.

[Guest wolverine]

You probably should stick to the spot-fu stuff then, because matches like this require people to THINK while watching. If you can't grasp the meanings of the moves beyond their pure aesthetic value, this stuff isn't for you.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

All right, I see why you give this match rave props. The story from previous matchups which is why I love Bret-Benoit so much. However, I still give it 4 1/2 stars. Perhaps part of the reason is that I can't buy the powerbomb in Japan finishing off Misawa especially with all off Kawada's and Misawa's powerful moveset. The powerbomb seems to be anticlamitic. I realise it is  Kawada's big time move but the perception of the powerbomb being weaker is still there to me.

If you've seen Kawada's prevoius matches, and the Tenryu/Jumbo series you would know exactly why the Powerbomb Pin has so much heat on it. Go watch Jumbo/Tenryu 6/5/89, and 93 television to see why the move is so over.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Can't get more ignorant than that.

 

When Jumbo uses a powerbomb in 4/89 v Tenyru and legit injures him, that move became DEADLY.

 

Hell, Tenyru used to almost ganso bomb people regularly during the Choshu mid 80's days.

 

Kawada's powerbomb is.............well, explaining it to you would be pointless.

 

Oh, and Benoit/Hart is ****1/2-*1/2.

 

Tim, praying wildpegasus never gets to see Baba/Robinson from 7/76.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Can't get more ignorant than that.

 

When Jumbo uses a powerbomb in 4/89 v Tenyru and legit injures him, that move became DEADLY.

No, I was talking about 6/89.

 

I wish I knew how to use Spoiler Tags, but in case you don't want to know the ending, don't read on....

 

 

 

 

 

 

In 6/89, Tenyru finally goes over Jumbo with the Full Folding Powerbomb that his apprentice(Kawada) would later start using. So the move became over as "The Man" killer.

 

It's no secret that Kawada is playing the role of Tenryu, while Misawa is playing the role of Jumbo in 6/3/94. Kawada trying to follow in his mentor's foot steps by defeating "The Man" with the Powerbomb.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"No, I was talking about 6/89. "

 

I know.

 

But the 4/89 match helped put over the powerbomb as real since it actually legitly injured Tenyru.

 

TIm

[Guest wildpegasus]

Wolverine, I do like to think when I watch wrestling although I do like "spot-fu" as well. As for the powerbomb spot, I do know the history of it in 89. However, that doesn't change the fact that others in All Japan have used the move and not gotten pins with it. Kawada's powerbomb just doesn't seem any better to me.

Listen, I know that's picky but that's just the way I see it.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

That's ludicrous, the powerbomb is one of the most protected finishers, anywhere in the world. It still finishes a whole heap of matches, from puro to the WWE.

 

SURELY you understand the concept of moves being over as finishers, even if they don't look the part of something that will KO the other guy. Just look at the Stunner, or the Rock Bottom, for crying out loud.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

You have to look at things in context, if you don't then you won't get it. The suspension of disbelief is also a factor in appreciating the significance of certain moves.

 

Hopefully the discussion about Taue's Chokeslam and it's credibility will not be resurected.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

The idea is to look at it in the context it was presented in. Kawada had just picked up the biggest win of his career previous to that with a Powerbomb, so that's probably reason enough to "buy it" right there, wouldn't you say?

 

DragonFlyKid: The crux of the arguement is pretty much the same. Whether the move *looks* credible is pointless next to how it was treated by the promotion. A good example would the Rolling Germans, which usually looks very devastating, but is treated about the same as a ten-count punch by the WWE, and is thus, not a credible finish under any circumstances there.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I hate the stunner and rock bottom. Not so much as moves but as finishing moves. Even thought they are over as finishing moves, they do ruin a match somewhat for me.

I buy the logic of the powerbomb spot. You won me over there.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Just to add to the Powerbomb cred, Terry Gordy and Stan Hansen both pinned Misawa with Powerbomb pins in 93.

 

Not to mention Kawada pinned a shitload of people with it as well. All it took was one full Powerbomb Slide Pin to finish off Kobashi at 4/93.

 

edit: I think Gordy did. I can't remember, exactly.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

It's all about the credibilty of the move being built up. The Rolling Germans were treated as something special at first but they became so common that their use lost meaning. Once-devastating moves can lose their effectiveness over time to someone looking at things out of their proper context, if one were to watch some old school wrestling one couldn't appreciate certain moves that were credible then but look less credible in the present next to all the state-of-the-art, high-impact moves.

 

Kawada's Powerbomb was symbolic of the Tenryu/Tsuruta series and was an important part of Kawada's moveset that brought him success. When someone else in AJ used the powerbomb and isn't as successful it's likely their's don't have history behind it. Like CS said, a person may also have a certain vulnerability, Kawada's has been a German Suplex, Misawa's may have been the Powerbomb.

[Guest XdojimeX]

Kind of off topic and its been mentioned before but my favorite part of the '94 match isn't even a certain move, great transition or sell (at least not in the literal sense). It's after Kawada nails Misawa with that epic looking koppo kick as they're about to enter the stretch run. Misawa roles out of the ring to recover and the camera man catches my favorite staredown in wrestling history as the two burn a whole through the ring ropes. Two gun slingers at an impasse, the proverbial tumble weed blowing by. Just a great shot. These guys knew eachother and their audience so well they had the sense of where the match was and where it was going to let the moment sink in. The greatness of this match has been broken down time and time again, and its probably aged better then any match of that entire era of wrestling. It's intangibles are a big part of that as well.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Kind of off topic and its been mentioned before but my favorite part of the '94 match isn't even a certain move, great transition or sell (at least not in the literal sense). It's after Kawada nails Misawa with that epic looking koppo kick as they're about to enter the stretch run. Misawa roles out of the ring to recover and the camera man catches my favorite staredown in wrestling history as the two burn a whole through the ring ropes. Two gun slingers at an impasse, the proverbial tumble weed blowing by. Just a great shot. These guys knew eachother and their audience so well they had the sense of where the match was and where it was going to let the moment sink in. The greatness of this match has been broken down time and time again, and its probably aged better then any match of that entire era of wrestling. It's intangibles are a big part of that as well.

Indeed that is the greatest camera shot in wrestling history, even better than 12/96 where Jun is clinging to Taue's leg to save Misawa.

 

A great calm before the storm moment.

[Guest The Hamburglar]

Kind of off topic and its been mentioned before but my favorite part of the '94 match isn't even a certain move, great transition or sell (at least not in the literal sense). It's after Kawada nails Misawa with that epic looking koppo kick as they're about to enter the stretch run. Misawa roles out of the ring to recover and the camera man catches my favorite staredown in wrestling history as the two burn a whole through the ring ropes. Two gun slingers at an impasse, the proverbial tumble weed blowing by. Just a great shot. These guys knew eachother and their audience so well they had the sense of where the match was and where it was going to let the moment sink in. The greatness of this match has been broken down time and time again, and its probably aged better then any match of that entire era of wrestling. It's intangibles are a big part of that as well.

Oh, but that bit is so cool. I've often wondered why I've not seen that sort of thing used more often, it gives you a break while simultaneously ramping up the tension for the final epic collision. The only slight peeve in this match is that after Kawada had decimated Misawa with the stretch plum I found it a little hard to buy Misawa's subsequent superman comeback in the corner. It wasn't really annoying, its just that I was absorbed in the match enough to feel that Kawada had to win at that point and that Misawa was too dead to come back. Only other small flaw is that frequently throughout, Misawa's idea of selling his neck area is to hold it and look slightly disgruntled, but that's really a petty nit-pick and does nothing to really hamper the match as such. Wonderful match, though, and I hardly saw any of the stuff leading up to it. It works in a self-contained way, I feel.