Crowd heat & the world title

[Guest godthedog]

i'm gonna go out on a limb & say jericho is about as over as a heel as trips is as a face.  the reaction for both is big, but it isn't a "number one heel/face in the company" reaction.  it's kind of lukewarm, it feels like there's something missing.  if you don't agree with that premise, then stop reading this post now because we'll have no common basis from which to argue.  

 

from that premise, i form a question: how come everybody's bitching about triple h not being over enough to have the title, while everybody applauded handing the title to jericho?

 

i've read the argument on this board several times that you have to earn the proper heat BEFORE you get the belt, not use the belt to get yourself more over.  isn't this exactly what they did with jericho?

 

"but they were making a new star for the main event."  i can understand that: jericho's young, extremely talented, arguably isn't even in his prime, and clearly has something to contribute to the company.  now, compare that to trips: he's only 2 years older than jericho, at least as talented, is either right past his prime or hasn't hit his prime, and clearly proved that he has something to contribute to the company.  

 

so if jericho can hold the belt to gain extra heel heat, what's wrong with triple h holding the belt to get his heat back?

 

is it because there's people in the company more over than trips right now?  on that basis, austin or rock should've gotten the undisputed title at vengeance.

 

objectively, wouldn't it make MORE sense to put the belt on triple h than jericho?  i know everyone is complaining (including myself) about trips' lack of ring skills right now, but jericho, unless he's fighting the rock, hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire.  triple h has been with the company longer & put on a lot more great matches in the wwf than jericho.

 

well, there it is.  discuss.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

I agree with you, and I find this to be one of the main reasons I view most of the internet wrestling scene as a load of hypocricy.

 

HHH is not the most over face. Anyone would be stupid to dispute that. Ok, getting that out of the way, let's say HHH doesn't deserve the title, for that reason. Then the following also hold true:

 

-Jericho hasn't deserved his title reign, since Angle and the nWo are more over as heels than he is.

 

-Benoit did not deserve to win the title at any time in the last two years (despite the internet clamoring for that to happen). At no point during his WWF run has he been the most over face or the most over heel.

 

-Hogan should have the title since he is the most over face currently.

 

-Barring that, Angle should have the title since he is the most over heel currently.

 

-The Title should be given to the main stars, not used as a way to prop up midcarders and make them into stars. Did Austin need the title in 1997? By the time he won it, he was already the biggest star in wrestling.

 

This also extends over to the way the WWF pushes guys. If a guy like Test gets pushed and doesn't get over, it's because he "sucks" or he "doesn't have what it takes" or whatnot. If someone like Jericho gets pushed and doesn't get over, it's because "the booking sucks" or "he can't win clean" or something similar that places the blame elsewhere.

[Guest Cataclysm911]

The man reason that I wanted Jericho to keep the title, is to add more time to the title reign. I want the days of REAL long title reigns to come back. I feel that it makes title changes mean more.

 

Title matches should not be predictable. Not to mention Triple H is an "Ultimate Warrior Champion" which means that he just looks like a bodybuilder with a belt on. I like the idea of an "underdog" as the champ. I thought that it worked well with HBK & Bret so why not Jericho?

 

Then you factor in all the Triple H pull, and it just makes me sick to my stomach. He was a good champion as a heel, but he was in better shape then and Cactus Jack made him look like fucking superman. He had no build up into this title reign. His dog got ran over and he is going through a divorce. Then they tried to switch the storyline during the last week and tried to change the focus back onto Hunters leg.

 

*sigh*

[Guest godthedog]

i personally wanted jericho's reign to last longer too.  i also agree that the wrestlemania buildup was FUBAR'ed.

 

but it's the complaining about triple h's reign while spouting the virtues of jericho that gets to me.  if you want to criticize the writing, fine.  just don't say trips doesn't deserve the title with one side of your mouth & say jericho should still have the title with the other.

[Guest goodhelmet]

"This also extends over to the way the WWF pushes guys. If a guy like Test gets pushed and doesn't get over, it's because he "sucks" or he "doesn't have what it takes" or whatnot. If someone like Jericho gets pushed and doesn't get over, it's because "the booking sucks" or "he can't win clean" or something similar that places the blame elsewhere."

 

I don't know about anyone else but I've pointed the finger for Tests lack of heat on two things. 1)He was made to look like a fool during the HHH-Steph marriage and did not receive his revenge (bad booking) 2) he sucks as a wrestler. So it's certainly a combination of both.

 

In regards to the most over face/heel carrying the belt, generally this should be the case but not only is Hunter not the most over face, his matches have sucked and he's been the product of bad storylines.

 

In regards to Jericho, he was arguably one of the top 3 faces during the Invasion angle. He has the skills to compete with the top guys and before the program was aborted, his feud with the Rock was one of the best reasons to watch the WWF in the last part of 2001. Certainly, being Steph's gopher was not going to help Jericho's career. HHH certainly was never booked that way.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

I agree with you, and I find this to be one of the main reasons I view most of the internet wrestling scene as a load of hypocricy.

at last you realise, hypocrisy is what allows us to bash test unquestionably, yet put people under interrogation if the say anything bad about our favourites, hypocrisy rules!!!

 

and the original post made a good point, though their arguments for and against are on different levels.  jericho was given the title to cement him as a main eventer, which is well and good, but giving trips the belt does nothing to cement him as a face, as it is harder to empathise with somebody who has already won so to speak.  also, i will use the tried and true smark argument that jericho can bring the goods in the ring, while trips is lacking thus far.  also, jericho got the belt relatively soon after his heel turn, and at this stage his heel act was gaining heat, not losing it.  trips on the other hand has been face for over 2 months before winning the belt, and his heat has generally diminished in the period leading up to his reign.  while there *is* to some extent in smark logic on the matter, there is a lot more logic in complaining about the hhh reign when compared to the jericho one.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

In regards to Jericho, he was arguably one of the top 3 faces during the Invasion angle. He has the skills to compete with the top guys and before the program was aborted, his feud with the Rock was one of the best reasons to watch the WWF in the last part of 2001. Certainly, being Steph's gopher was not going to help Jericho's career. HHH certainly was never booked that way.

but thats because triple h is *intense*.  now if jericho was intense then he wouldnt have had to do that, but alas, he isnt.

[Guest goodhelmet]

At least Test isn't as INTENSE as Trips or the main event of Mania would have been Jericho-Test.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

At least Test isn't as INTENSE as Trips or the main event of Mania would have been Jericho-Test.

no, it would have been trips-test: the battle to determine the single most *intense* guy in the wwf.  just smell the buyrate!!!

[Guest goodhelmet]

"no, it would have been trips-test: the battle to determine the single most *intense* guy in the wwf.  just smell the buyrate!!!"

 

you know, we joke about it but I was really disturbed how the Test-HHH story was handled. test did not dish out one ounce of revenge and Shane wanted to elevate this guy? Really, test might have been one act of revenge from getting over huge.

 

Then again, if that would have happened, we probably wouldn't have seen Foley-Trips Street Fight or HeII in a cell so it was definitely better it worked out that way.

[Guest godthedog]

right now jericho IS better in the ring than trips, but neither one is at a main-event level.  and i don't think jericho has enough of an edge on trips right now to cancel out hunter's matches that were ruling the world this time a year ago.  they obviously have faith that he'll be able to bring it back up to what it once was (like they did with austin, putting him in the main event in november 2000, although he arguably wasn't ready for it until wrestlemania).

 

Certainly, being Steph's gopher was not going to help Jericho's career. HHH certainly was never booked that way.

i'll go out on another limb and say that hunter's petty feuding with stephanie didn't give HIM any credibility as a wrestler either.  hunter ain't a strong champion right now, & neither party came up particularly strong after 'mania.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

yeah, its one of those forks in the road that you look back on.  instead of a few good years, test could have truly fulfilled prophecy and become the nash incarnate, and the wwf would be knocking on bankruptcy's door once again after a year-long test run.  instead the wwf is only mildly fucked, and have put on some awesome tv over the past few years to make it all worthwhile.

[Guest goodhelmet]

"right now jericho IS better in the ring than trips, but neither one is at a main-event level."

 

and for that, we can blame Stephanie

 

Godthedog, if you'll read one of my previous posts in this thread, I stated that Trips was the product of bad booking, bad matches and not the top face. Therefore, he shouldn't even be near the title level

 

I also believe that Stone Cold was ready prior to Mania. Solid matches against Regal(what), Benoit and Trips at NoWayOut. Trips has not proven anything yet. And you could also argue that Stone Cold was still over huge with the crowd even when he was the product of bad booking (Rikishi for chrissakes).

 

And before Trips won the Rumble, Jericho's heel run was much more enjoyable and he seemed to fit in the main event slot perfectly.

[Guest mastermind]

Speaking of the leg I was asking myself this tonight. Didn't they say it was on wires or something last week on SmackDown? Anyways, that's not such a big thing as he hasn't wrestled. I will complain though when we see him have no leg pains on RAW. I just like keeping the wwf on its toes with stuff like that.

 

I also think long title reigns need to come back. It has to. The whole roster has worn championship belts except Molly not including new guys coming in. The titles have to get stabilized and fans have to start to recognize people as champ. Why do you think some want Hogan with the belt. He was considered champ so long it seems odd not seeing him with the strap.

 

Okay, now onto the topic. If a champion isn't the top draw in terms of facedom or heeldom I can let it slide if he is putting on the best wrestling matches on the show. He is doing something FOR the championship. That's why I never saw a problem with Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels. They delivered in the ring and could be seen as fighting champions. Someone like Hogan was the top draw and built as superman, so he could be seen as champion AND he was over. That made up for his lack of wrestling skills(he's really a brawler and don't understand why people judge him on wrestling skills).

 

What we have now is Triple H being the Ultimate Warrior champion*lol* as someone said. He just looks like a champion, but he isn't exactly the top draw AND he isn't putting on the best matches. 1990 all over again. I still think Trips could be a big time draw, but he needs to turn heel and run in the nWo. He is just not a likeable guy plain and simple. He was getting pops in late 2000 because of his badass attitude. He's becoming HBK post Mania 12 goody two shoes. He doesn't know how to change to a face like Austin and Rock.

 

I stated way back in December the undisputed title should have gone on Austin or Rock because the title needed the rub. We have to remember the wcw title was by default defunct. Austin or Rock carrying it around would give off the illussion that something historic had happened. Jericho was getting heat and with some help he would have still be over. I agree Triple H is a better choice for champion. I actually think Jericho was more the problem for the main event than Triple H notwithstanding the dog poop storyline. If Austin was put in his spot I doubt the match and crowd would have been as disinterested.

 

I am of the belief that the title should be above the wrestler. I also think the wrestler should be primed for the belt as well. I think Angle at this moment would have been a tremondous champion if he never won the title already. He got the titles to fast to help his character imo. Now his skills are matching world championship material on the mic and in the ring.

 

You see let me go down the list of the greatest champions in wwf history and why you should be over FIRST then get the strap.

 

The Rock: He was extremely over by the time he won his firt wwf world title in late 1998. He was getting Rocky chants all the way back to SummerSlam '98 against face Triple H. So, when the title went on him the fans bought it.

 

Triple H: Yes, his reign from Big Show until Backlash was good. However, notice how short it was. He regained the title and lost it a month later. As you can see maybe he was over rated in a year when the great Austin was out and Rock was putting him over. Just my opinion. He didn't get REAL heavy heel heat until he upset Rock and Foley at WrestleMania. He got over AFTER beating Rock and Foley within the first three months of Mania. Before that he was heatless and just another paint by numbers champion. Notice getting over first by beating former champs as champ put him over? That's when he got credibility as champion. He is in the same position again and that's probably why he is facing the "legend" who beat him at Mania in his first ppv title defense. Beating a former champion by the champion to show he is a champion. This is NOT how your champion should be.

 

Steve Austin: Yeah, he was over as mad ####. That's why when he got the strap it was heralded as the 3:16 Era of the wwf world title at WM 14. The fans saw him as the champion and then defeating the man who laid down for nobody and no one could say he was a paper champion. That is a key with being world champion since it's all a work.

 

Hulk Hogan: His first reign he was massively over to begin with so fans saw him as the champion.

 

Ric Flair: He was over before he got the strap from Harley Race in 1983. He wasn't more over than Road Warrior Hawk or Dusty Rhodes(arguably) or Sting, but he was definitely putting on the best matches. He was seen as a champ by the fans. He wasn't given the title and then prove himself. The wwf has done this in the last two years with Triple H, Angle, and Jericho. I understand making new stars and everything, but shoving people down our throats won't work. Fans are capable of thinking on their own just ask Rock and Hogan at WrestleMania. The greatest champions are actually made by the champions such as Austin. I will get heat for this, but I thought Foley was a crappy champion. It was sentimental for him beating Rock on RAW(and for his work at #### in a cell), but he should have never got any other titles imo. It didn't nothing for him or the title.

 

My point is putting the title to get them over RARELY works. Warrior was passed the torch, but he wasn't more over than Hogan obviously and he didn't put on the best matches. So, the title was suffering. At the moment the title is suffering. Even in 1996 when wcw had heel Hogan as champ drawing the wwf had HBK putting on excellent matches, so it was arguable which champ had the better case of being the top world champion.

[Guest Tony149]

Molly won the Hardcore Title at WM. I think everybody except Rico has won some sort of WWF belt.

[Guest notJames]

The whole roster has worn championship belts except Molly...

Actually, Molly was Hardcore champ for about 10 minutes during Mania, between Hurricane and Christian. The only non-champs are Stacy and Torrie, although I wouldn't consider them active wrestlers, per se.

 

As far as who should be the champ, I don't think there's a cut-and-dried  answer to that. Wrestlers are made champions for different reasons, whether it's to help them attain superstardom, cement their status as top level talent, or to reward them for superlative effort and service. It's really the story arcs and direction of the company that dictates who becomes the flag-bearer. While I believe that HHH isn't the ideal choice right now given his role as the tepid, reluctant babyface and soon-to-be divorcee, it would be unwise to take the belt off him so soon.

 

The Fed is at a critical juncture right now, considering the impending Split. If they truly plan on jumping the champ from one show to another, he has to be viewed as a strong champ, taking on all challenges and (this is the important part) winning. Without a lengthy title run, the belt becomes no more than a lofty plot device, and the champ a mere footnote in someone's obsessive list at best, or a running gag at worst (Big Show, anyone?).

 

####, give the belt to Hurricane Helms. He gets good pops, right?

 

[Guest goodhelmet]

"Without a lengthy title run, the belt becomes no more than a lofty plot device, and the champ a mere footnote in someone's obsessive list at best, or a running gag at worst (Big Show, anyone?)."

 

I think they've already damaged the belts enough to where a HHH loss would not hurt it one iota.

 

Actually, this whole conversation may be all for naught if they decide to split the titles up after a screwy RAW match.

[Guest mastermind]

Well, the wwf is trying to do the NWA world champion role with the champ jumping from region to region(division to division), so the wrestler has to be the best as Triple H so obviously tried to point out to Jericho tonight on SmackDown. Triple H if he can come back to his 2000 self is the best person for this job description. That is basically what Flair said his role was in the NWA last week on the sports station here in Toronto.

 

I agree people are given the strap for different reason. Mick Foley I was happy for winning the strap because of his life story of wanting to become the wwf champion. His performance at KOR with Taker also warranted him at least one time with the big gold as no other person in wwf history put himself through so much during a match for the wwf. However, his following reigns were worthless and just a prop and served no purpose.

 

Kurt Angle's title was given to him to fill out the story arc that he won all the major titles in the wwf within his first year because he was the most real and only olympic gold medalist in wwf history. Add to the fact he won for wrestling and I see the story. However, his skills weren't up to par for people to take him serious in his first reign. The wwf should have just built him up through a long i-c title reign and it would have done a better accomplishment trying to get the above story over. Diesel is another person who got the same kind of push. He won all the major titles within 9 months of his first year of wwf competition and we saw where he went in the wwf in 1995. These are paper champions and the wwf suffers with these reigns.

 

Austin should have kept the strap all year in my opinion last year because fans knew #### well he wasn't going to lose his title to someone like Jericho or Angle. When Angle won it looked like a paper victory and it was. Most fans see through this easily whether mark or smark and the ratings show it. Triple H was a bit different once he started to look like a million bucks after fighting Foley at RR 2000.

 

I forgot about Molly and WrestleMania. ####, Maven already is a two time titlist and he hasn't even been in the wwf for six months. Something is really wrong with this picture as he is above legends like Jimmy Snuka and Roddy Piper in titles held in wwf history. Very skewed indeed. Maven is still green as #### as evident with his match with Goldust which I feel old Dustin was working him in with those spots.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

ahem....the champion walked a dog that pooped on the floor.

 

The belts mean nothing

[Guest notJames]

Maven already is a two time titlist and he hasn't even been in the wwf for six months...

Sorry for busting out my obsessive champ lists (gottta boost my post count so I can stop being a lowly trainee  ), but Maven's been a three-time champ. He beat Taker, lost to Goldust, beat Al Snow, lost to Spike, and then beat Christian to be current champ.

 

But you're right about some champs not being ready, although I do think Angle would make a great champ if he wasnt the dorky face he was during the InVasion.

[Guest mastermind]

bps, that's my point why Jericho and Triple H are in this situation along with the other champions. That's why Jericho to the hatred of smarks won't be main event material to casual fans even if he holds the belt for 5 years with all clean victories. Rock, Austin and the like will still be seen as the real champions. That's why they are having dead crowds for main event title matches. Um, something's really wrong with that since championships are strong devices for stories.

[Guest goodhelmet]

That's the great thing about Angle. He can adapt to the comedy doofus role or the 'I want to eat your children and i'm more intense than HHH' role. The WWF should really dedicate all of their efforts into Angle sincehe has the best overall abilities. Let's see:

over? yes

wrestling skills? yes

mic skills? yes

mainstream credibility? (he's a REAL wrestling gold medalist for chrissakes)yes

The WWF is doing itself a huge disservice by not making Angle the focus of their organization because by 2004, during the Olympics, it would pay off huge!!!! (provided he wins)

 

As for the titles, I lost count of who's held a belt in 1999. I just don't have enough hours in the day to dedicate myself to that kind of research.

[Guest mastermind]

"As for the titles, I lost count of who's held a belt in 1999. I just don't have enough hours in the day to dedicate myself to that kind of research."

 

Man, so true so true. The funny thing it isn't even a joke. Yep, I would put the strap on Angle especially since he is over and he now has the pro skills. He fits the heel character better. I say let this year play out and make him a focus in 2003 the year before he goes back to the Olympics. Of course this could be haywire with his "amateur" stuff.

[Guest notJames]

Is he really going to try to go back to the Olympics? I hadn't heard that. Wo, he can play the whiny heel there too if he doesn't get the gold. Not like that hasn't happened before...

 

[Guest goodhelmet]

Yes, he's already been given the clearance by Vince and will begin training some time soon. This may be Vince's last chance EVER to receive some legitimate press for his product. Lets just hope he doesn't bully costas during the Olympics.

[Guest mastermind]

One of Angle's funniest lines had to be when Triple H was showing either Steph or Trish a hold and he then showed his wrestling hold. Triple H said something and he replied "but mine work" or something like that. Too funny.

[Guest notJames]

You can add "I"m the Baby Game" to that list, too. Classic!'

[Guest Laizen]

When it comes to long title reigns, just be happy SCSA held the belt for over 8 months straight (except for the 2 week Angle period)

[Guest muzanisa]

According to the Observer the feeling in the WWF was that Jericho wasn't over as a heel so they hooked him up with Stephanie to get legitimate heel heat on him and she saved the title match at Wrestlemania.

[Guest mastermind]

I wonder who whispered THAT into the ears of the suits?