Is the playing field being leveled?

[Guest Pegasus Kid]

The issue was raised in the "Controversey" thread about new topics so I thought I would throw this out there. There was a point up to maybe a few years ago when one would consider Japanese Wrestling to be heads and shoulders above its North American counterparts in terms of in ring work. Personally, as I've been able to watch some US Independants along with sporadic Japanese tapes (whichever ones were more prominently pimped around various message boards) I've found that the gap of quality has gone to the wayside. The Japanese product simply doesn't strike me as being exceedingly better than North American wrestling in terms of work any longer. Do you all feel the North American product, whether it be through WWE, TNA or various US Independants have gotten better or even exceeded Japan in terms of work? Do you feel the "working gap" has closed because the Japanese product has fell down a tier or two making a US product that's been holding steady look that much better while it hasn't really improved at all? Of course there are probably alternatives than the two provided so... discuss.

[Guest j.o.b. squad]

i think it is a bit of both. you have a lot of people who are gaijins in japan working a lot of us indys which makes the us indys better as the other guys in the fed that the gaijin is working in has to work harder to keep up with him.

 

as well as the big names of puroresu getting old and loseing several steps. which brings down puroresu a step or two

[Guest Tim Cooke]

The whole world of wrestling has been in a downfall for a while now.

 

The US scene is easy to see. One major company with no competition, a craptacular product down in Nashville. ROH is a good promotion, but when they go up against nothing, it isn't that hard.

 

Japan has ZERO big time draws and no "aces" for the hardcore fans to latch on to. People can praise NJPW all they want but the matches aren't anywhere near the levels both AJPW and NJPW produced at their heights nor do they have the drawing power.

 

Tim

[Guest Doyo]

The gap has definately narrowed but the style in Japan is

still a lot stiffer, which generally comes off better. Your average

Japanese indy guy is still a lot better trained than your

average American one.

[Guest goodhelmet]

really, if you want to talk about skill level then the japanese are probably still far ahead of the u.s. pack.

 

i want to believe there is a resurgence in new japan. i wouldn't mind seeing all japan and zero-one merge. i want mpro, toryumon, osaka pro (as if they were ever really must-see) to start tossing out must-see cards again. unfortunately, the japanese cards are so hit-or-miss (mostly miss) that i have no desire to part with my cash to obtain a show with one decent match (that wouldn't be considered good in other time eras).

 

to answer the original question, there is no doubt in my mind that the ROH guys have exceeded the puro groups in terms of effort and ringwork. justin has recommended every show. jhawk has recommended every show he has seen so far. i recommend almost every show i have seen. ROH or current puro? in terms of actual matches, i'll take a ROH tape over any other current company in the world.

[Guest Black Tiger]

Goodhelmet, a lot of RoH wrestlers have lots of Japanese experience though.

 

Christopher Daniels has a nice fan following as Curry Man, Mike Modest just won the GHC Jr. Title, Donovan Morgan works NOAH tours, Low Ki and AJ Styles work in Zero-One, American Dragon worked some NJPW tours, and former RoH worker James Maritato (Numzio) used to wrestle for UWF-I which was part of his RoH gimmick I understand

 

I think the problm with puroresu is that its been the same guys on top for too long, one can only see Chono, Misawa, Mutoh, and Hashimoto as top guys for so long. Nagata's IWGP Title reign has only had two challengers that fans thought might be able to beat him (Chono and Nakanishi) both of those matches went to one-hour draws, so Nagata isn't even given a rub by a win over them. I'll still put NJPW's junior division over just about any other federation.

[Guest goodhelmet]

BT, i am fully aware of the backgrounds of the aforementioned wrestlers BUT only chris daniels was working in japan on a steady basis prior to ROH's debut show. maritato hasn't seen japanese soil for years. i don't recall ever seeing low-ki or styles in japan before ROH. while ROH has brought in some solid imports and even exported some talent, the point is i was seperating the gaijin from the natives. and as far as work goes, the ROH guys seem to have better matches here than there.

[Guest Black Tiger]

Goodhelmet, I'm not RoH expert, I only know what I read in Justin's reviews so I'm caught up with the product up to its November show with the Zero-One wrestlers on it.

 

I believe that ROH ran their first show in Feb of 2002, Modest and Morgan both were working in Japan before that time in NOAH. I'm not sure about Ki, but I don't think Styles or Dragon were.

[Guest Pegasus Kid]

to answer the original question, there is no doubt in my mind that the ROH guys have exceeded the puro groups in terms of effort and ringwork.

While I agree that Ring Of Honor has put on a spectacular product right from inception, I don't know if they have exceeded all Puro groups in terms of ring work. Ring Of Honor has the unique position of having the "cream of the Independant crop" so the shows have great workers from start to finish (outside of a few anomalies). Top to bottom, the ROH crew probably isn't on par with New Japan or Pro Wrestling NOAH. I'd give them the nod over almost all of the other feds though. With the Japanese Independant scene in the state it's in, you can see how ROH would exceed them though. There are too many small feds with the talent being spread too thin. It was brought up that the bigger Puro Indies should merge and to be honest I'd like to see that as well if only to provide consistently great cards the way ROH has but politics would never allow such a union to take place. The US Indy scene allows for any worker to work any fed as they so wish. Japanese feds seem to have allegiances. So the Osaka Pro/Toryumon/Michinoku Pro union could never come to fruition.

 

I suppose it's a tiered system on both sides of the world. Personally I feel that WWE puts on a better in ring product than Ring Of Honor. WWE has the benefit of more polished wrestlers and better production, not to mention larger crowds for a different impression of the match. The same can be said for NJPW and NOAH. Their workers seem to be on a higher tier than their Japanese Independant counterparts. If I were to compare them in tiers, I'd probably give NJPW the nod in term of work over WWE and ROH the nod over the Puro Indies.

[Guest goodhelmet]

i disagree justin. while i did admit that there are certainly better wrestlers in japan (even njpw), the matches themselves are not the stuff legends are made of. ok, the hour draws are memorable but not great. nagata is the longest running igwp champ but name one classic in that time (maybe the chono match). once again, the company is under-acheiving. the other puro majors aren't even worth mentioning save for the misawa- kobashi swan song

 

as for wwe, the in-ring work is so sub-par i have no desire to spend money on any of their merchandise save for the latest MAnia which i honestly enjoyed. With WWE, despite having the "best" wrestlers, the shows have been shit for the most part . ROH does more with less and their shows have been heads and shoulders above what the wwe is producing.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

I'll always take Japan over America, simply because they view wrestling in a different way to the American's which I appreciate more. Everything is much more serious, realistic, not to mention varied in style, which is probably the main reason I go for the Japanese every time.

[Guest gansobomber]

Same here, Japanese seem to have that extra dimension or detail that makes you more involved in the match. Their story telling in most matches is defenitely better than the ones in US.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"Personally I feel that WWE puts on a better in ring product than Ring Of Honor. WWE has the benefit of more polished wrestlers and better production, not to mention larger crowds for a different impression of the match."

 

Production Yes....but when compared to that of K-1, even the WEEE looks second rate.

 

Larger crowds that DON'T react mean nothing. I would rather have a core crowd that was loud than pack a building with 15,000 people who don't know hwat to cheer for.

 

Can Am Express v Kikuchi/Kobashi from 5/25/92 was held in a building much smaller than Bukodan or the Tokyo Dome, yet had more heat than anything I have ever seen.

 

As for the in ring product, if the Smackdown "spot fu" style is what you like, more power to you. But when you have a guy like Benoit, who is capable of anything working those crappy matches, then you know your product isn't evolved.

 

Ring of Honor at least strays from the formula and has produced matches that the WEEE could never dream of, most specifically 12/7/02 Danielson v London.

 

Tim

[Guest Pegasus Kid]

Production Yes....but when compared to that of K-1, even the WEEE looks second rate.

 

Larger crowds that DON'T react mean nothing. I would rather have a core crowd that was loud than pack a building with 15,000 people who don't know hwat to cheer for.

 

As for the in ring product, if the Smackdown "spot fu" style is what you like, more power to you. But when you have a guy like Benoit, who is capable of anything working those crappy matches, then you know your product isn't evolved.

 

Ring of Honor at least strays from the formula and has produced matches that the WEEE could never dream of, most specifically 12/7/02 Danielson v London.

Eh... production between K-1 and WWE is evenly comparable. K-1 has a very "big show" production to it but the production values (IMO of course) are comparable to WWE, but no in excess of it.

 

I'd beg to differ on what a large crowd can do. Look at what happened with Hogan vs Rock from last year's WM. The match is mediocre but that crowd made the match something that people will remember for a long time to come. You couldn't reach that same kind of heat with 400 rabid fans in a rec centre or 2100 rabid fans in Korokuen. The mega crowd can change your impression of a match in a way that no small crowd can.

 

I find it unfair you could run a comparison between ROH and SD! claiming ROH has evolved as a product. With the exception of AD vs London (which you have gone on record as loving and saying it's a MOTYC IIRC) ROH hasn't evolved that much. Their shows are predominantly spot fu and in many cases the worst kind of spot fu (see just about any Scramble Match for a prime example). The main events that have heralded MOTYC praise (from myself included) have in many cases been "spot fu" to such a great degree that people love them but the actual work hasn't really evolved with few exception (Dragon vs Styles and Dragon vs London primarily).

 

It seems obvious the Japanese style has influenced the US Independant scene in such a manner that makes me wonder if Japan is getting worse or simply in a rut. If you look at Dragon before his NJPW tour and after it's like watching a whole new wrestler. That learning experience of working with superior (subjective of course) workers changed him and the result were two spectacular matches with Styles and London. It lends me to believe that the Japanese wrestlers are still better workers, just not performing at the level they could be at.

 

So while Japan lays stagnant, the WWE style (which I love, SD! style and all) continues to be enjoyable week after week. From a big show pespective, I'd figure WWE has closed the gap on Japan for quality matches as well. Granted you won't be seeing any 60 minute draws in WWE but (biased as I may be) I think WWE PPV's consistently put out great matches. With Angle vs Benoit from RR still my MOTYC, I'll stick by that for now.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"Eh... production between K-1 and WWE is evenly comparable. K-1 has a very "big show" production to it but the production values (IMO of course) are comparable to WWE, but no in excess of it."

 

Agreed. I find K-1 to actually make a bigger deal out of their stars with the entrances, lighting, intorductions, etc.

 

"I'd beg to differ on what a large crowd can do. Look at what happened with Hogan vs Rock from last year's WM. The match is mediocre but that crowd made the match something that people will remember for a long time to come. You couldn't reach that same kind of heat with 400 rabid fans in a rec centre or 2100 rabid fans in Korokuen. The mega crowd can change your impression of a match in a way that no small crowd can."

 

Rock/Hogan was also worked very well. Give that same heat to their No Way Out match from this year and you still have shit, just covered by some air freshener. Thw original WM match had smart work misxed in with crowd heat to create a clever match.

 

"I find it unfair you could run a comparison between ROH and SD! claiming ROH has evolved as a product. With the exception of AD vs London (which you have gone on record as loving and saying it's a MOTYC IIRC) ROH hasn't evolved that much."

 

The WEEEE runs the same boring tired old crap on Raw each week and on Smackdown, they run meaningless "work rate" matches with guys who are capable of so much more.

 

Meanwhile, ROH works the following on their first year shows:

 

2/23 Daniels v Dragon v Ki

- Better than ANY WWF/E 3 way in terms of stiffness, innovation, and good work. And keep in mind, Indy Innovation or any innovation which makes no sense bugs me.

 

3/30 Dragon v Daniels; Dragon v Ki

- The first is a more US Pro Style match that keeps a focused story while integrating mat work, selling, and moves. The second takes mat based style work for 20 minutes and finishes with 15 minutes of near falls.

 

6/22 Ki v Red

- the "Martial Arts Movie Like" match

 

9/21 London/Shane

- Garbage match, but again something different

 

10/5 Ki v Joe

- "Shoot Style" for what it is worth

 

11/9 6 man; Dragon/Styles; Otani/Tanaka v Ki/Corino

- the first is a upper level 6 man tag, something the WEEE never puts on and when they do, they usually mess it up. The second is a blend of US Indy highspots v US Indy mat work. The third is a Japanese match with the native v gajin theme in the US.

 

11/16 Scramble

- Scramble concept. WEEE hasn't/couldn't do it this well.

 

12/7 Dragon/London

- Exceptional match that blends old US style with the classic Old v Young story.

 

I DO NOT like all of these matches. In fact, I find many to be mediocre but they still show the willingness to put on different matches in ROH where as every RHO match follows the same pattern.

 

"Their shows are predominantly spot fu and in many cases the worst kind of spot fu (see just about any Scramble Match for a prime example)."

 

Agreed.

 

"The main events that have heralded MOTYC praise (from myself included) have in many cases been "spot fu" to such a great degree that people love them but the actual work hasn't really evolved with few exception (Dragon vs Styles and Dragon vs London primarily)."

 

True. But I see that same thing in most WEE matches, only it can be considered WWE spot fu. Angle/Lesnar from WM, which did meaningless mat work (which didn't even try to show who gains advantage (Dragon/Ki from 3/30). Then they moved on to highspot after highspot WWE style.

 

The thing that was SO great about Angle/Benoit from January wasn't the ending, but the way Benoit found so many smart little things to work into the match. The build to the sharpshooter was straight out of an AJPW match in building towards something. The work after that was hit and miss but Benoit building to that sharpshooter was the first time I had seen him do his usual smart work in a long time.

 

"It seems obvious the Japanese style has influenced the US Independant scene in such a manner that makes me wonder if Japan is getting worse or simply in a rut."

 

Agreed. Has been for a while.

 

"If you look at Dragon before his NJPW tour and after it's like watching a whole new wrestler. That learning experience of working with superior (subjective of course) workers changed him and the result were two spectacular matches with Styles and London. It lends me to believe that the Japanese wrestlers are still better workers, just not performing at the level they could be at."

 

Agreed. His training at the LA Dojo in both Jui Jitsu and shoot work has also helped his work. Plus, his fandom of Billy Robinson's good qualities and keeping his move set rather toned down have helped him. Plus, I believe he is a real smart person in general, which you have to be to lay out the complex stuff that he does at point.

 

WHen are you reviewing 12/7? It's got some good undercard stuff, one AWESOME match, and some real crap, but I'm interested in how you view it as someone who has seen every show but none live. My live experience *could* be blinding me a tad.

 

Tim

[Guest Pegasus Kid]

I find K-1 to actually make a bigger deal out of their stars with the entrances, lighting, intorductions, etc.

Running a comparison between WWE entrances/lighting/introductions and K-1 is a bit like apples and oranges though. WWE runs a show every single week. K-1 is in a position to run every coulpe of months (or tighter schedule lately). The big show feel should have big show production. The weekly WWE show has great production and their bigger shows have elaborate set ups just like K-1 (I do like the PRIDE elevator though for entrances).

 

Rock/Hogan was also worked very well.  Give that same heat to their No Way Out match from this year and you still have shit, just covered by some air freshener.  Thw original WM match had smart work misxed in with crowd heat to create a clever match.

This isn't quite what I was getting at with the Rock vs Hogan analogy. Rock vs Hogan I was an average match (IMO of course) made great by a red hot crowd. I'm not saying the big crowd ensures a different impression as a bad match is a bad match and a crowd whether large or small will turn on it (see Steiner vs HHH both times around) but an average match can come across so much better with a large crowd because what isn't actively bad can be looked at as good with so much heat on it.

 

Meanwhile, ROH works the following on their first year shows

 

*snip*

 

I DO NOT like all of these matches.  In fact, I find many to be mediocre but they still show the willingness to put on different matches in ROH where as every RHO match follows the same pattern.

Like I said earlier, ROH has the benefit of getting the cream of the independant crop. The result is a situation where you have the unique situation of an extraordinarily diverse roster that is capable of putting on these matches. Also; ROH is made of "smart" fans (or at least some of them would like to think so) who look for this kind of diversity. While matches like the opening 3 Way Dance, The Hong Kong Movie and The Ladder Match would probably get over with WWE crowds as they were ripe with shock value sequences as spots, the matches that are being heralded as the true MOTYC's in Ki vs Dragon, Dragon vs Styles and Dragon vs London would never work in a WWE setting. Even Ki vs Joe, a match full of stiff work that fans love to watch wouldn't catch on with a general populace. The fans are simply different and aren't "educated" in what to appreciate. If Pro Wrestling fans wanted shoot fighting style there'd be more fanfare for UFC.

 

When are you reviewing 12/7?  It's got some good undercard stuff, one AWESOME match, and some real crap, but I'm interested in how you view it as someone who has seen every show but none live.  My live experience *could* be blinding me a tad.

12/7 is a ways off for me. I'm in the midst of "crunch time" at college with projects and finals so my reviewing has been put on the backburner. I've got 11/16 up next and then 12/7. Probably won't be for a few weeks.

 

On a side note, I've found that many net folk that watch ROH live hold the matches in a higher regard. I've always assumed that it's just the atmosphere in general or you don't see the flaws you can see on video/DVD. I doubt the live fans are being "blinded" but just not getting the big picture that you would get from video/DVD.

[Guest gansobomber]

" The thing that was SO great about Angle/Benoit from January wasn't the ending, but the way Benoit found so many smart little things to work into the match. The build to the sharpshooter was straight out of an AJPW match in building towards something. The work after that was hit and miss but Benoit building to that sharpshooter was the first time I had seen him do his usual smart work in a long time. "

 

I didn't want to change the focus of this thread in any way, but Angle/Benoit was only a WWE MOTYC. It would have been a definite MOTY if Benoit had built in Angle's injury into the match for more than first 5 or 6 minutes.

 

I can live with a few extra chin-locks.

 

Secondly I tend to agree with Pegasus Kid in the subject of the WWE. Production values almost never bother me. In fact I find the NJPW or AJPW ring atmosphere much more well suited to the matches. It gives that gritty, realistic feel. But in terms of a polished product, barring RAW, SD! does give a more polished product. I fid the even bigger names in wrestling tend to screw up simple moves or transitions and the early match flippity-floppity stuff. You don't see a lot of that in the WWE even if they tend to water down the product a lot. Even though A Train, Big Show are looked down upon in terms of workrate and selling, I find that nothing makes me look away from a match like some in the indies.

 

The reason you also get so many interesting matches in the indies is because they have greater freedom to work matches in a style they want. At least I think they do. WWE wouldn't allow that.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

This variety thing that keeps coming up time and time again in this thread is bascially what I love about Japanese wrestling over anything the WWE has ever produced. You can pick up any NJPW show from the last year and find nearly each match brings something different to the table compared with the last, it's always interesting. Every WWE match is pretty much the same as the last, with the exception of the odd Angle / Benoit match, and Angle / Lesnar (which I thought was excellent), and this turns me off their product as I just find it predictable now.

 

I need to get some ROH at some point. Tim? Justin? Care to recommend your favourite shows? I'm also gonna check out some IWA mid-south, looks like good stuff.

 

I agree about the smoothness of the WWE guys, even the shitty ones, there's a reason they have escaped indie hell.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Every ROH show is worhty of being picked up.

 

My favorites:

 

11/9/02 All Star Extravaganza

- Daniels/Morgan/Joe v Ki/Williams/Homicide (***1/2)

- Styles v Danielson (****)

- Otani/Tanaka v Ki/Corino (***1/2)

 

12/7/02 The Night of the Butcher

- Danielson v London (****1/2)

 

12/28/02 Final Battle 2002

- London v Xavier

- Danielson v Joe v Corino v Ki

 

2/8/03 One Year Anniversary

- Danielson v Joe (***1/2)

- London v Ki v Styles (***1/2)

- London v Xavier (***3/4)

 

Tim

[Guest bob_barron]

Tim-

What would you rate Xavier v. London and the 4-way? I was at the show and found both matches to be quite good- except the 4-way dragged at times. London was great at getting the crowd behind him

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Live, X/London was ***1/2 and the 4 way was ***3/4. On tape, I expect them to stay in that level, +- 1/2*

 

Tim

[Guest bob_barron]

That sounds about right- I missed a little of Xavier v. London to rate it properly

[Guest Dangerous A]

I need to get some ROH at some point. Tim? Justin? Care to recommend your favourite shows? I'm also gonna check out some IWA mid-south, looks like good stuff.

I just got through 4/27/02 "Night of Appreciation". I have seen the first two, in order.

 

I'd recommend watching the shows in order, starting with "The Era of Honor Begins". There are storylines there and it is much better viewing to watch the shows in order to get a grip on who's who and feuds. While it's not blowaway storylines, it is really different from what WWE is doing and it's a real breath of fresh air.

[Guest Pegasus Kid]

I need to get some ROH at some point. Tim? Justin? Care to recommend your favourite shows?

Ranked Shows (In Order):

 

Round Robin Challenge

All Star Extravaganza

Honor Invades Boston

Road To The Title

Crowning A Champion

Night Of Appreciation

Era Of Honor Begins

Unscripted

[Guest magell]

I think the reason WWE shows aren't as good as many of the Japanese ones are that the WWE wrestlers work a lot more than the Indy and Japanese guys do. WWE wrestlers have one televised show a week and 1-2 house shows.

 

I'm not very into Indy and Japan wrestling 'cause I'm just getting into it but they tend not to fight as often so they don't get as worn out. The WWE weekly shows are more of a way for WWE to build to its big PPV. If WWE PPVs were the only thing you were talking about when being compared to Indy wrestling and Japanese wrestling it would be more fair.

 

I've seen some RoH and while I agree it is good I think quite a few people tend to overrate it because it's not WWE. As many people have been saying RoH is where the Indy MVPs go to wrestle really big matches. For the most part RoH has the best indy guys working their shows.

[Guest Pegasus Kid]

I think the reason WWE shows aren't as good as many of the Japanese ones are that the WWE wrestlers work a lot more than the Indy and Japanese guys do. WWE wrestlers have one televised show a week and 1-2 house shows.

 

I wouldn't go that far. It's really a matter of whether you pace out your dates (WWE Style) or clumps your dates (Japan style). Japanese tours can be outright grueling, in many cases working three days with one day off before working another two - three days. It can be just as hard on their bodies as it is on WWE workers.

 

I've seen some RoH and while I agree it is good I think quite a few people tend to overrate it because it's not WWE. As many people have been saying RoH is where the Indy MVPs go to wrestle really big matches. For the most part RoH has the best indy guys working their shows.

 

Nah... there are lots of products out there that aren't WWE. TNA is able to showcase the same workers as ROH, they just don't and 2/3 of the product sucks. That's not WWE, but a poor product is a poor product.

 

I think the Japanese feds are just in a rut right now. They've got the talent, just not the motivation. The days of the Four Lords is over. The NJ glory days of being on top while putting the screws to smaller feds are over. Pro wrestling as it was seems to be an afterthought and the workers of that age, still on top to this day, simply don't have the fire to take the product to the next level. On the other side though; especially in the US Indy scene, North American wrestlers are going to Japan hungry. Hungry to work, hungry to learn and showcase those new abilities back home. If the leader isn't moving, the rest are going to catch up, simple as that.

[Guest gansobomber]

So in other words, Japan and WWE are in the same boat ...

[Guest ConspiracyVictim]

Ranked Shows (In Order):

 

Round Robin Challenge

All Star Extravaganza

Honor Invades Boston

Road To The Title

Crowning A Champion

Night Of Appreciation

Era Of Honor Begins

Unscripted

 

That is about how I would rank them although I would put Honor Invades Boston below Road to the Title. Also for anyone who is looking to see ROH for the first time, dont let the list fool you. I have personally never seen an ROH show that I didnt enjoy. There is always going to be something good on each show, just some more than others. Actually, I would also like to back up the notion that you should watch them in order and dont worry about keeping up to date on it bc that is futile. RF still hasnt released "Reveange on the Prophecy" and "Final Battle 2002" although they will be released at the next show.

 

To throw in my two cents I think most mainstream wrestling is in a rut nowadays wheter in be here or in Japan. Actually, even Mexico has had problems drawing lately since Vampiro's last big major run where things went up for a bit. I mean, you know your in trouble when your top drawing company is AAA (not the old AAA im talkin the new Chucky AAA). There is still quality wrestling around, you just have to dig deeper to find it. WWE has been putting on alot of the same old matches lately but I feel the reason the Smackdown matches were getting so much praise is that they were something different and new. Not new to wrestling of course, but to the WWE. The Smackdown "spot fu" style had never been seen done on WWE TV in recent years so alot of people who watch mainly WWE were attracted to it. Of course I do think Angle/Benoit and Angle/Lesnar both deviated from that mold (although in the Angle/Lesnar match I think Angle should have actually sold the neck more since he did mention his injury in a backstage skit on Smackdown)

 

I'm also gonna check out some IWA mid-south, looks like good stuff.

 

Thats great. IWA MS has become one of my favorite indy feds as of late and they really do go unappreciated bc they are overshadowed by alot of other feds and still have that "hardcore" stigma to them. A couple matches you might want to check out are...

 

Ian Rotten vs. Chris Hero 5/4/02 (yes, that Ian Rotten and no, its not a hadcore match)

 

CM Punk vs Chris Hero 2/7/03 (2/3 Falls 90 minute time limit match)

 

Truth Martini vs Chris Sabin 12/28/02

 

Chris Hero vs. CM Punk 12/21/02

 

Christopher Daniels vs AJ Styles 11/1/02

 

Ian Rotten vs Tarek the Great 10/4/02

 

Chris Hero vs BJ Whitmer vs CM Punk 10/4/02

 

CM Punk vs Colt Cabana 9/1/01

 

CM Punk vs Chris Hero 2/9/02 (Tables & Ladders Match)

 

 

a few whole shows to check out are...

 

IWA Mid-South - November 1 & 2, 2002 "Sweet Science 2002 (Ted Petty Invitational)"

 

IWA Mid-South - October 5, 2002 "6 Year Anniversary Show"

 

IWA Mid-South - October 4, 2002 "Retro Night"

 

IWA Mid-South - February 9, 2002 "House of Hardcore 2 Year Anniversary Show"

 

IWA Mid-South - May 4, 2002

 

IWA Mid-South - January 24, 2003 "IWA's 300th Show"

 

IWA Mid-South - February 7, 2003 "When Hero Met Punk"

 

IWA Mid-South - February 21 & 22, 2003 "Ultra Styles Clash Weekend"

 

These are the shows that have really stood out to me and alot of other people. Just check out a comp or something first to make sure you like the product though before you buy it but I highly suggest you do see Rotten v. Hero and Hero v Punk 2/3 90 min bc both of those matches are two of the best IWA has put on IMO.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Thanks a lot mate