Churches gear up for Christian invasion of Iraq

[Guest Vitamin X]

Tyler, I'm not trying to sound condescending, but did you miss this part?

 

In one major project, Baptist families have been asked to put together "gift of love" food boxes designed to provide a month's worth of basic nourishment to a family of five. "Please do not place any additional items/literature inside the box," the families are told.

 

They're not sandwiching Bibles in between the green beans and the corn here. They're sending food. They're bandaging wounds. They're doing it in the name of Christ and there's nothing wrong with that as long as they're not saying, "No Conversion, No Band-Aid, Abdul." And they're not.

 

And Vitamin X, I'm a bit confused . . . how in the world is this war ANYTHING like the Crusades?

Christians allied in the medieval ages to "liberate" Jerusalem from supposedly evil Muslim oppressors...

 

...Christians allied in 2003 to "liberate" Iraq from actual evil Muslim oppressors...

[Guest SP-1]

No. Several countries with decidedly mixed religious makeup banded together to take down an evil, genocidal dictator and liberate a people as a whole. Christianity has little to do with it, other than we have a president who is a vocal Christian. I still haven't seen where he's said that's a reason behind the war. He's simply said it's a source of strength.

[Guest EricMM]

In this case perception is everything. I don't think that Christianity has much to do with this war/conflict what have you. But it would be very easy to spin this into a religious conflict, especially to the people being liberated and summarily innandated with evangilists.

 

How is it going to look? That's not even our responsability, I'm not saying it is, but trying to convert Muslims is just going to make people upset.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Forget it, you've thoroughly ignored every piece of evidence supporting every point but your own, so there's no point in debating this.

[Guest DrTom]

SP, as much as I admire your ability to remain level-headed in matters like this, I have to think Tyler's right. I don't really want to think that, since I think a bunch of Bible-pounders trying to convert the people is the LAST fucking thing we need over there, but it looks like that's what we're going to get. I'm sure not all of them are like that, but the quotes in the article make it seem like quite a few are going over there for that purpose.

[Guest Vitamin X]

In this case perception is everything. I don't think that Christianity has much to do with this war/conflict what have you. But it would be very easy to spin this into a religious conflict, especially to the people being liberated and summarily innandated with evangilists.

That's sort of my point right there.

[Guest SP-1]

Eh, none of can change it anyway. I'd rather the hardcore bible-thumpers not go over, myself, and leave it to the people that have their hearts in it and not their "reputations". I still think the article was written specifically to give the effect of what Tyler is claiming and is presenting a false view of what they're trying to do though. I stand by that. Oh well.

[Guest BDC]

Listen, in case you've never really sat down and talked with a missionary, you DON'T TRY TO BEAT PEOPLE OVER THE HEAD with the gospel. I've done mission work in the States (using a broad definition of mission work) and I have several very good friends that have done mission work in Africa, Asia and the Middle East.

 

The key is not to make it the point of every conversation. You try to relate to them on their terms, you work with those receptive. You don't try to force it on those that are closed down because then they'll tell everyone that you're trying to forcibly change them.

 

There has been mission work all over the world for a very long time. Sometimes people even die for it. I admire their faith and their conviction, especially cases of those that have tried to reach out in openly hostile areas, such as China and parts of the Middle East. You probably would have looked down on their work, something they laid their life on the line for.

 

Honestly, I would like to see experienced missionaries in Iraq and them only. Unfortunately, I know we're going to get some people in there who don't listen.

 

And Tyler, I was not talking down to you. If it came across that way, I apologize and I'd like to keep this civil, but this IS something I know about and I was simply trying to get a point across.

[Guest NoCalMike]

I just hope missionaries understand that we didn't liberate Iraqis so they can convert to christianity. I mean, even with freedom they are still a very different culture, they value different things, they react differently to certain things, and it would be a HORRIBLE time, to give them the wrong ideas about our intentions.

 

Why not give them aid in the name of HUNGER, rather than in the name of Jesus? I mean really, if anyone needs "God's influence" to make them want to help needy people, then they probably have some existing issues that the need to work on.

[Guest SP-1]

To answer the question, all things are for the Glory of God. Which is why it's done in the name of Christ.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

I'm Christian and I agree. These people going over there will only cause trouble.

[Guest SP-1]

I'd rather them wait, too. And make sure the right ones are going.

[Guest EricMM]

BDC I'm not trying to catagorize all missionaries, I'm just saying that the bad eggs will stand out, and they're the one's that will end up being in inflamitory situations in the middle east.

 

I think that there are (at least) two different types of missionary:

 

There is the kind that saw that Jesus commanded that Christians help out their fellow man, give whatever you can to aid the suffering of others, and live among those who need your help.

 

There are also the kind who saw that Jesus commanded that his people go out and spread the word of gospel. That the only salvation was through him, and thus they are to fulfill their role as good christians by helping as many people to the path of heaven as possible.

 

They're both COMPLETELY valid Christian statements, and one does NOT negate the other. But, I think in this case, one is going to cause as much problems as the other.

[Guest Some Guy]

Sending Christians over to help=good, sending Christians over to help and attempt conversions=bad.

 

If they are over there and have a Bible nest to them and someone asks about it bacause they are curious then it would be fine to explain what Christianity is all about but to make it a goal to convert people is crazy and counterproductive.

These people were all forscefully converted to Isa, by the Ottomons long ago and are pretty well set in their beliefs about God and as long as they are tryign to kill anybody then they should be left alone.

It seesm to me that SP has the best intentions but you're incorrect. Tyler laid out the evidence that they were trying to convert the Muslims and you've not countered it enough.

 

Bush should refuse to allow them to go if they are going to preach the gospel to an audience who can't refuse because they are starving. It's taking advantage of the horrific situation that Saddam has caused the Iraqis to live under. It's not right and it shouldn't be "Christian," unless "Love thy neighbor" only applies if they convert to think like you.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Okay, let me sum it up for people like SP. And since we called out the Journalistic Integrity card, I'm going to use religious links

 

Franklin Graham, son of Bush buddy Billy Graham is all ready to go convert in Iraq. Not that Iraq doesn't ready have a fairly large christian population (1 million or 1 in 24 Iraqis). But they're catholic so it doesn't really count.

 

http://www.beliefnet.com/frameset.asp?page...5&boardID=55473

 

'Poised and Ready'

The evangelist who called Islam 'wicked' is ready to bring humanitarian aid to Muslims in Iraq.

By Deborah Caldwell

 

Franklin Graham, son of the Rev. Billy Graham and one of the nation’s most outspoken critics of Islam, said Wednesday he has relief workers "poised and ready" to roll into Iraq to provide for the population’s post-war physical and spiritual needs.

 

Graham, who has publicly called Islam a “wicked” religion, said the relief agency he runs, Samaritan’s Purse, is in daily contact with U.S. Government agencies in Amman, Jordan, about its plans.

 

The group’s main objective is to help refugees and people who have lost their homes or are sick and hungry as a result of the war, Graham told Beliefnet. “We realize we’re in an Arab country and we just can’t go out and preach,” Graham said in a telephone interview from Samaritan’s Purse headquarters in Boone, N.C.

 

However, he added, “I believe as we work, God will always give us opportunities to tell others about his Son….We are there to reach out to love them and to save them, and as a Christian I do this in the name of Jesus Christ.”

 

Graham didn’t seem concerned that the public presence in Iraq of Samaritan’s Purse—which has put out a press release about its activities—could prompt already-skeptical Muslims worldwide to view the war as a crusade against Islam. “We would not go in and participate in something that would embarrass our administration,” he said. But he added, “We don’t work for the U.S. Government, so we don’t get our permission from them.”

 

Some Muslims were outraged that Graham would be allowed to help with Iraq’s humanitarian effort.

 

"Franklin Graham obviously thinks it is a war against Islam,” said Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations. “This is a guy who gave the invocation at President Bush’s inauguration and believes Islam is a wicked faith. And he's going to go into Iraq in the wake of an invading army and convert people to Christianity? Nothing good is coming of that.”

 

A spokeswoman for the U.S. Agency for International Development said Wednesday night she could not comment on short notice.

 

Meanwhile, officials from the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant denomination, are also planning a large relief effort in Iraq once the war ends. The International Mission Board has already sent about $200,000 in hunger funds and $50,000 in general relief funds to its workers in Amman, Jordan.

 

“This is not just a great opportunity to do humanitarian work but to share God's love,” said Sam Porter, state disaster relief director for the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma. “We understand that the individual people of Iraq have done nothing to hurt us. We want to help them to have true freedom in Jesus Christ.”

 

On Wednesday, Graham was unusually guarded in his comments about Islam, saying only that “when people ask, I let them know I don’t believe in their God. But I respect their right to believe whatever they want to believe.” Two months after September 11, however, he called Islam a “very evil and wicked religion.” Last summer he said Muslims hadn't sufficiently apologized for the terrorist attacks--and he challenged Muslim leaders to offer to help rebuild Lower Manhattan or compensate the families of victims to show they condemn terrorism.

 

That comment followed a string of remarks about Islam and Muslims, as Graham promoted his book, “The Name.” In it, Graham wrote that "Islam--unlike Christianity--has among its basic teachings a deep intolerance for those who follow other faiths." Then, in an interview with Beliefnet, he reiterated his opinion, saying, "I believe the Qur'an teaches violence, not peace." In an indirect criticism of President Bush, Graham at the time told Beliefnet that after September 11, "there was this hoo-rah around Islam being a peaceful religion--but then you start having suicide bombers, and people start saying, 'Wait a minute, something doesn’t add up here.'"

 

In the midst of this verbal battle, one Muslim group in New York called him "bigoted, hateful and divisive."

 

But Graham is only the most significant leader of a widespread and rapidly growing effort by conservative American Christians to criticize Islam—and attempt to convert its followers. Since 1990, the number of missionaries in Islamic countries has quadrupled. Mission experts estimate they have spoken to or given Christian material to at least 334 million people in that time. Groups such as Youth With a Mission and the Southern Baptist Convention's International Mission Board, sponsor two-week jaunts to places like Kyrgyzstan to convert Muslims to Christianity.

 

Five years ago, the Southern Baptist Convention reorganized its International Missions Board to focus on the part of the world where Muslims live. That year, the Convention published a prayer guide for use when praying for the conversion of Muslims. They followed with similar prayer guides aimed at Hindus and Jews two years later. Two years ago, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary even created a master's degree program to help students minister to Muslims.

 

Donna Derr, an official for Church World Service, a mainline Protestant and Eastern Orthodox aid group, finds this activity worrisome.

 

She said the 2,000-year-old Christian churches in Iraq--whose members are a tiny minority in a vast Muslim population--have worked extraordinarily hard in the last decade to "develop their place" in the community. She said Christians and Muslims are working together in a way they never did before.

 

“I would hate to see the tenuous balance that has been created made unbalanced by the entry into Iraq by peoples who may have less sensitivity,” she said. "Our military activity has created one chasm. We don't want to see our humanitarian assistance create another chasm."

 

But Graham said Samaritan's Purse has worked closely with Christians in Iraq since 1991. He first went to Baghdad 30 years ago. "I know exactly what the situation is, and I’ve briefed my people very well on it," he said.

 

At this point, said Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, American Christians should stop worrying about whether Muslims think America is anti-Islam.

 

“What doesn’t look that way to the Muslim world?” Besides, he said, “they’re the ones declaring holy war, not us. They’re the ones trying to convert people by force. They’re the ones killing people in the name of religion, not us.”

 

But Hooper, from the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said evangelical groups bent on converting Muslims often go into countries emphasizing humanitarian concerns to obscure their proselytizing agenda. “They go after them when they’re most vulnerable and hope they can get them to leave their faith. It’s a very despicable practice.”

 

He warned this could undermine the Bush administration’s efforts to portray the war as a move toward liberation, not a war against Islam. “If it becomes generally known it’s going to be a public relations disaster for the Bush administration,” he said.

 

Even Michael Cromartie, director of evangelical studies at the Ethics and Public Policy Center and an ally of evangelical groups, cautioned that charities like Samaritan’s purse “need to be soberly aware of the perception problems this might bring in light of the geopolitical situation.”

 

I understand that not all Christian groups that go into other countries are there to convert, but it seems quite obvious that this one is.

 

There's nothing missionaries can do that the various programs of the UN can't do better, without the preaching. I can think of few things that will piss off the Arab world more (well, more than they are already) than a bunch of fundies in Iraq once the shooting stops.

[Guest Vitamin X]

Ironically there's so many similarities between Christianity and Muslim that I'm pretty sure a large uneducated part of Iraq might just convert. Less praying, more food!

[Guest Mad Dog]

Actually there are very few similarities.

 

You know there's that whole tennets of Islam and all that.

[Guest Vitamin X]

Bah, it's all the same anyways...

 

This or that created humanity, worship them, you must have high morals or you'll be punished, there's a prophet who says this is all true, blah blah blah martyrdom, we're right everyone else is wrong.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

Vitamin, why take part in the discussion?

 

 

As for my opinion, the article is poorly written. That being said, the adoption of the term "spiritual warfare" in any context is a bad decision because it will only elicit a negative reaction. And, speaking from a Catholic perspective, I think the best way to "evangelize" and convert is live according to Christ's teachings as best one can and rely on the Holy Spirit to guide others to the Church. You'd be surprised at how effective and inspiring it can be to simply be a Christian.

[Guest SP-1]

The group’s main objective is to help refugees and people who have lost their homes or are sick and hungry as a result of the war, Graham told Beliefnet. “We realize we’re in an Arab country and we just can’t go out and preach,”

 

Hey, look at that. That's what I said!

 

“This is not just a great opportunity to do humanitarian work but to share God's love,” said Sam Porter, state disaster relief director for the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma. “We understand that the individual people of Iraq have done nothing to hurt us. We want to help them to have true freedom in Jesus Christ.”

 

I agree. Share the love of Christ if the opportunity arises. Notice Humanitarian Work has consistently come first, eh?

 

Two months after September 11, however, he called Islam a “very evil and wicked religion.” Last summer he said Muslims hadn't sufficiently apologized for the terrorist attacks--and he challenged Muslim leaders to offer to help rebuild Lower Manhattan or compensate the families of victims to show they condemn terrorism.

 

How about the FIRST part of the paragraph? The one that doesn't help only your view.

 

On Wednesday, Graham was unusually guarded in his comments about Islam, saying only that “when people ask, I let them know I don’t believe in their God. But I respect their right to believe whatever they want to believe.”

 

How 'bout that. A christian tolerant of other beliefs and the free will to choose and reject other religions.

But that doesn't make the headlines or prove the opposition point so I guess it gets skipped. Glad I'm here to point it out.

 

Since 1990, the number of missionaries in Islamic countries has quadrupled. Mission experts estimate they have spoken to or given Christian material to at least 334 million people in that time. Groups such as Youth With a Mission and the Southern Baptist Convention's International Mission Board, sponsor two-week jaunts to places like Kyrgyzstan to convert Muslims to Christianity.

 

Not only in Islamic countries. All over the world. There are missionaries at work ALL. OVER. THE. WORLD. It's not some retarded war on Islam, it isn't a war at all. There are Missionaries right here in the states. None of us appreciate it being singled out like that and once again made into something to support a decidedly anti-Christian viewpoint.

 

- SP, who is alot of things but a "Fundie" ain't one of 'em. And who also has a best friend at work for YWAM, who he supports wholeheartedly.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Anyone can say they're going to do the right thing, but I think it's wise to look at their track record. Graham (who's organizing this whole thing) doesn't think too highly of Islam and those who worship it judging by his comments in the past.

 

Regardless, you may be right, you may be wrong. We'll see. Still, I don't think that you can refute that this could spark someone to go commit another terrorist act on the US. Like I said, the U.N. can do all of this, without the "Christianity in an Islamic land" stigma attatched to it that will likely upset many in the Arab world.

[Guest NoCalMike]

I don't care who gives the Iraqi people aid, whether it is Christians/Muslims/Jews/Atheists etc...however the main reason should be, because they are HUNGRY and in need of the aid, not because "our god is better and he sent us here to do this"

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

NoCalMike, I think the debate has pointed out that we perhaps ought to give them the benefit of the doubt that they aren't going in with a "my god is better than your god" attitude.

 

My main complaint is certain segments of the Islamic community seeing this and more bombs/planes/whatever, whether because they don't have the full story or because they're naturally against the whole thing.

 

When Americans were volunteering to act as human shields, the Bush administration did some trash-talking to advise them against that and managed to stop them. I wish they'd do a little of the same here, but since the 'moral majority' votes Republican, I doubt it'll happen.

[Guest Vyce]

I don't know if the government CAN stop these guys from going over without it being a violation of their constitutional rights to religion.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

I'm sure they both will. The second kind is WRONG, IMO and I don't support that kind of work. I believe in letting God naturally maneuver the unsaved into the opportunity to hear. Don't force it on them. Even ministries that go out on the beach and such to minister to people don't force it. Present the information and let the interested stick around and the disinterested leave.

 

That's how most missionaries work.

SP, you're completely right here --- but the fight isn't worth the effort.

 

There are those who refuse to acknowledge that the Christian church has actually done some good and that you can hope to convert people without FORCING them to convert.

 

Just feel bad for those people and move on.

-=Mike

[Guest SP-1]

Vyce makes a good point.

 

As I said earlier in response to Kahran, I'd much, MUCH rather they not go running over as soon as the shooting dies down. They should wait, organize themselves and coordinate with other groups better to best spread their resources to help people first.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

I have no problem with missionaries going to Iraq. Christians are called to spread the word, but its WAY TOO EARLY to go in.

[Guest Big Poppa Popick]

Speaking as a college-educated and soon to be doctoral candidate in rhetorical economics, having spent 5 years in the study of rhetorics, I say the following

 

1) the language in the first article is loaded...If you'd like to to anaylze each word as per their meanings/connotations and show the positivist/negativist stance in each sentence to quanitfiably show bias/unbiasness, please ask...I haven't done that in about 6 months

 

2) It seems we all agree that Christians going over to help out is good. If they thump bibles thats bad...

 

umm..so why keep debating?

 

Simply put, the most disturbing thing is we have an article quoted, but what's the source... It may come a long way to see where it came from...

 

anywho...this debate seems silly...

 

and oh btw...catholics do count...thank you very much

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

I don't know if the government CAN stop these guys from going over without it being a violation of their constitutional rights to religion.

The government CAN speak up and say "We don't think that would be a very safe thing to do. We think it would make the region more unstable" and thus pressure them not to go, or at least cast some uncertainty on the situation.

 

They won't, though, since the majority of these groups are on the right side of the fence.

 

Big Poppa Poppick:

 

It seems we all agree that Christians going over to help out is good. If they thump bibles thats bad...

 

umm..so why keep debating?

 

Nice post. We're debating because of the chances this could be spun as though they're trying to aggressively convert Iraqis. They may, they may not, but whether through media misintepretation (you just pointed out a case of media negativity, and do you think Al-Jazeera would report it fairly?) or simply because of the pressure the Islamic following as feeling as it seems that the rest of the world is targeting them, we don't need to have another disaster zone in one of our major cities. These religious organizations could spur violence, either there or here at home.

 

catholics do count...thank you very much

 

Oh I agree. I'm just saying that they appearantly don't to Graham, as if they did he would notice Iraq has a Christian community already going for it. But, as you can see from Jack Chick's hateful tracts regarding Catholicism, it's Just Not The Right Christianity or something.

[Guest SP-1]

Graham is a Protestant. Luther broke away from the Catholic Church for various reasons and formed the base for what is now considered "Christianity". I don't know where Graham specifically disagrees with Catholocism or whatever but I don't think it's a matter of it not being the "right kind" of Christianity.

 

One problem with a Catholic community over there is that it's super dangerous given the intense structure of the Catholic church. Chrstianity in Protestant form is much looser and doesn't need that tight structure and could survive easier in an "underground" kind of environment there.

 

In my opinion. Feel free to point out things I'm not taking into account there. I freely admit I'm not the most well versed in the deeper levels of Catholocism.