Return of the Jedi

[Guest Ravenbomb]

Empire was my favorite all the way around. Jedi always seemed like it was rushed, a lot of things slapped together... not given a slow build like Empire was, and few resting stops like ANH had.

 

The CGI additions to the movies added to the experience, except for the dreaded "Greedo short first".. Props to Jay Spree for directing me to the petition website to get that scene removed... doubtful that Lucas is going to do that, but that was a ridiculous scene.

what's 'Greedo short first'?

[Guest Madmartigan21]

I don't think the Ewoks were an attempt to draw in more kids.  Kids were the original target audience for the first two movies as well, and they did awfully well without Ewoks.  I also thought the Ewoks were used to create an ironic ending for the Empire.  Here you have this big bad powerful TECHNOLOGICALLY SOPHISTICATED galactic empire and they're taken down in the final battle in no small part due to small, physically weak creatures that use things like ROCKS as weapons.  How poetic. 

Star Wars (OT) and Jedi specifically are an allegory for the Vietnam War. The Ewoks (Vietnamese) defeat are technicologically superior and larger force, the Empire (United States). Also Darth Vader represents the old man who supports a strong military and the son refuses to fight him and wants peace instead.

 

And the Emporer is Richard Nixon.

Why would the Emporer be Nixon in that analogy. Shouldn't he be LBJ. Although Kennedy was the one that initially sent troops to Viet Nam, it was largely seen as LBJ's war. Nixon was the one that finally pulled the troop out.

 

So Vader is a generic 60's father and Luke is his dirty hippy son? That doesn't entirely make sense either. I don't think most fathers wanted to see their sons go off to war with such a high mortality rate, regardless of what their views were on the military. And why would a father want his son to fight him any way?

[Guest Grand Slam]

Hey Spider... interesting tidbit here...

 

The two scenes you mentioned (Luke looking at the twin setting suns and Luke standing in front of the bonfire) ended up using the same exact musical cue. I love the little things like that

 

As to all the criticism directed towards Lucas and Star Wars and CGI...

 

I don't care about any of it. Star Wars was a revelation to me as a young kid seeing it in 1977. It kick started my love of reading and movies. I loved Empire and Jedi and I was determined that I would go into the prequels not expecting anything other than a good fun time. And that is what I got. I didn't over-analyze it, I didn't sit in the theater and think "I would have done this differently" and all of my friends who saw it with me that night (even the ones who now strongly dislike TPM) wanted to see it again right away.

 

So I get caught up in it and forget about bad dialogue (The original trilogy was just crawling with it) and how I think it "should" be done. How does that make me wrong about liking the movies?

 

I'll just say this. At a certain point, it became "cool" to dislike Star Wars, as long as you prefaced it with something like "But Empire is the bomb" or "I'll still go see it." Lots of people I talked to went into both Phantom Menace and Clones not just expecting it to be bad, but actively wanting it to be bad. Guess what?

 

They didn't like the movies. Big shock there.

 

In the end though, I will someday sit down with my son or daughter and say "This is your Dad's favorite movie" and that, I guess, is the highest compliment I can give anything...

[Guest starvenger]

Empire was my favorite all the way around. Jedi always seemed like it  was rushed, a lot of things slapped together... not given a slow build like Empire was, and few resting stops like ANH had.

 

The CGI additions to the movies added to the experience, except for the dreaded "Greedo short first".. Props to Jay Spree for directing me to the petition website to get that scene removed... doubtful that Lucas is going to do that, but that was a ridiculous scene.

what's 'Greedo short first'?

What, you didn't think Greedo was always that height, did you?

[Guest Dmann2000]

In the end though, I will someday sit down with my son or daughter and say "This is your Dad's favorite movie" and that, I guess, is the highest compliment I can give anything...

One day I'll do the same...

 

...except it'll be "The Godfather". And my son/daughter will probably have to be around 13 when they watch it.

[Guest Dmann2000]

Star Wars (OT) and Jedi specifically are an allegory for the Vietnam War. The Ewoks (Vietnamese) defeat are technicologically superior and larger force, the Empire (United States). Also Darth Vader represents the old man who supports a strong military and the son refuses to fight him and wants peace instead.

 

And the Emporer is Richard Nixon.

Why would the Emporer be Nixon in that analogy. Shouldn't he be LBJ. Although Kennedy was the one that initially sent troops to Viet Nam, it was largely seen as LBJ's war. Nixon was the one that finally pulled the troop out.

 

So Vader is a generic 60's father and Luke is his dirty hippy son? That doesn't entirely make sense either. I don't think most fathers wanted to see their sons go off to war with such a high mortality rate, regardless of what their views were on the military. And why would a father want his son to fight him any way?

That's true, LBJ is probably a better stand-in for The Emporer

 

And it isn't so much that the father wants Luke to go to war, it's that Vader represents the establishment, and Luke is the son rebelling against his father and that establishment.

[Guest MrRant]

I've always been a proponent of using models for ships etc (ala Star Trek/Star Wars: OT) with CGI because it makes the ships look real instead of fake.

 

It's too hard for me to ignore the OBVIOUS CGI in the latest Star Wars. It makes it look to unbelievable in my mind.

[Guest SP-1]

Rant, I'm with you there. I MUCH prefer the model of the Enterprise-E used in FIRST CONTACT to the very FLAT looking CGI model used in INSURRECTION. Luckily they did a better CGI model for NEMESIS.

 

CGI in STAR WARS doesn't bother me for whatever reason, unless it's something that's somehow GLARINGLY standing out.

[Guest SP-1]

Grand Slam, I hadn't ever thought about it before but that makes a ton of sense. I have the track from A NEW HOPE on my computer with that cue in it. It's just a wonderful piece of music.

[Guest RepoMan]

While I'm no fan of the Ewoks, I can totally live with them and not be a whiney bitch about them. I would rate Jedi ahead of ANH.

 

PM desreved alot of the criticism it got, though I consider it a good movie. Jar Jar is an annoying character just added to get 5 year olds interested.

 

AOTC had some bad dialoge, not as good as the original trilogy, and a few other MINOR flaws, anyone hating on it is just doing so because it's the cool thing to hate on the prequels. AOTC was very entertaining.

[Conspiracy_Victim 0]

Star Wars (OT) and Jedi specifically are an allegory for the Vietnam War. The Ewoks (Vietnamese) defeat are technicologically superior and larger force, the Empire (United States). Also Darth Vader represents the old man who supports a strong military and the son refuses to fight him and wants peace instead.

 

And the Emporer is Richard Nixon.

Well I preface by saying that I tolerated Eqoks, I just had a problem with spending more time focusing on the death of ONE Ewok than they did with all the people killed on BOTH Death Stars.

 

Ok, now that I've gotten my Kevin Smith/Randall smarkism out of the way, I don't get the above comparison. First, the movie was released in 1983. Vietnam may have been in the recent past at the time, but America was starting to move beyond Vietnam by then. Not exactly a topical discussion by ROTJ. Second, I always thought (and had read a couple of times) that Lucas did the whole "far, far away" stuff so he could distance his story from Vietnam.

 

Besides, ANH seems to be a better comparison anyway, with a poorly equipped guerilla force battling a numerically and technologically superior foe. However, they win because they strike where not expected and successfully hit and run a relatively stationary foe.

[Guest Fook_Hing_Ho]

I never thought of comparing the trilogy to Vietnam, but I have noticed that all the rebels have American accents while all the empirical officers have English ones, except for Vader because he's the "turncoat" so to speak.

[Guest Grand Slam]

Spider: it's funny. In the liner notes to the "Return of the Jedi Special Edition Soundtrack" they mention that this scene (the bonfire scene) was added very late in production. In fact it was shot on Skywalker Ranch after most of the movie was finished and ready to rock. John Williams scored a piece of music for this and showed it to Lucas, who said something like "I wanted something a little less somber, something with a more hopeful feel."

 

Williams, master that he is, thought about it and replied with "I have the perfect thing." He pulled the music from "Star Wars". It fit great and had a nice "end of the story" resonance even if no one recognized it outright.

 

Reason # 758 why I love the entire Star Wars saga (except for the "expanded universe" nonsense).

[Guest SP-1]

I've avoided the EU myself. I think Lucas has a good enough story self-contained in the trilogies, and I've felt that those characters specifically make the story, with the rebellion and whatknot serving only as a backdrop.

[Guest starvenger]

I've avoided the EU myself. I think Lucas has a good enough story self-contained in the trilogies, and I've felt that those characters specifically make the story, with the rebellion and whatknot serving only as a backdrop.

I'm a pretty big fan of the EU novels, especially the ones that come after RotJ. The Thrawn Trilogy, the X-Wing series and the New Jedi Order series in particular stand out. It's probably not what Lucas would have done, but they've managed to capture the magic of the original trilogy without one digital shot.

[Guest SP-1]

I may look into the EU at some point. For me I've always been more interested in the characters and their storylines (The fall and redemption of Anakin, it's mirror in the Empire, Luke's personal journey and the restoration of the Jedi contained therein, etc.). Though some of the videogames were swank.

[Guest The Hamburglar]

Look, people, its obvious that the prequels are an allegory of Hitler's rise to power. Palpatine is Hitler, The Republic is, well, the Weimar Republic, Count Dooku and the Trade Federation are the german social elite, The Jedi are sort of like the Jews and Naboo is obviously the Rhineland. Thus making Darth Maul the Munich Putsch. You know it makes sense.

[Guest Goodear]

I don't really get the problems with Jar Jar, he wasn't anymore annoying to me than C3P0 and R2 when it all came down to it. Lucas tosses in some comic relief that isn't really funny all the time... You know, oh well.

 

The thing about Ewoks, as cute as they were was that they were going to EAT Han and the Boys. Makes you wonder what happened to all of those Stormtroopers they knocked silly with rocks don't it?

[Guest DrTom]

I may look into the EU at some point.

I highly recommend Timothy Zahn's Thrawn series, then. Were Lucas to shoot Eps 7-9, he'd be a fool not to use these stories as the basis for the movies. Shadows of the Empire is a pretty good one-off, but that might also be because I'm such a shameless VADER~! mark.

[Guest SP-1]

Kyle Kataarn (sp?) rulez the skewl.

[Guest Grand Slam]

I've read a bit of the EU, most noteably the first Thrawn series and Shadows of the Empire and they were... well... OK.

 

They were good books, but they weren't Star Wars. I guess the biggest problem I have with them is that the key story, the biggest thrust of the storytelling in the Original Trilogy (and the Prequels, for that matter) is the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Once he is redeemed, the story is over.

 

The EU just feels wrong to me, like it was tacked on. A bunch of it just seems, well, silly and badly plotted.

 

My friend (who really likes the EU) calls me an "Orthodox Jedi" in reference to the fact that I am constantly annoyed by little things I see and read and hear about in the EU. For example, the ysalamiri. A living creature that pushes away the Force. I don't buy it. I just seems like a really cheesy way to keep the Jedi in the story (Luke, mostly) from doing anything, you know, cool. And don't get me started on the Yuzhon Vong "existing outside the Force" crap.

I guess I love the movies too much to buy into anything else. Besides, how much of the EU has Lucas rendered irrelevant as the series has continued?

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

I've read a bit of the EU, most noteably the first Thrawn series and Shadows of the Empire and they were... well... OK.

 

I agree.

 

But I did really enjoy both the Aaron Allston X-Wing books (the Stackpole ones were merely okay) and the Han Solo Trilogy by A. C. Crispin. Both have more of that Star Wars feel to them.

[Guest Grand Slam]

I've read part of the Han Solo thing, at it was good. I think it worked because it stayed away from the whole "Jedi and the Force - Darth Vader" thing.

 

But I'll say this. I was grooving on the EU after the Thrawn series. I thought, "Sure, it ain't Star Wars, but it ain't bad." Then i read Kevin J. Anderson's Jedi Academy Trilogy... and that was the end of that. Three of the worst books i have ever read. They are tripe.

 

Blobsticle races indeed....

[Conspiracy_Victim 0]

I've read a bit of the EU, most noteably the first Thrawn series and Shadows of the Empire and they were... well... OK.

 

I agree.

 

But I did really enjoy both the Aaron Allston X-Wing books (the Stackpole ones were merely okay) and the Han Solo Trilogy by A. C. Crispin. Both have more of that Star Wars feel to them.

I agree with Kahran. I love all the X-Wing books simply because I'm a Wedge mark. Face it, he's a minor (at BEST) character in the movies and he survives the whole thing. Not only that, but a whole fan base has arisen about him. He's like the Rebel Boba Fett (according to the books, Fett DOES survive the Sarlacc BTW). The Thrawn series was excellent, and the early Han Solo series (young Solo) was also great.

[Guest SP-1]

I guess the biggest problem I have with them is that the key story, the biggest thrust of the storytelling in the Original Trilogy (and the Prequels, for that matter) is the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Once he is redeemed, the story is over.

 

The EU just feels wrong to me, like it was tacked on.

That's pretty much where I stand.

[Conspiracy_Victim 0]

I guess the biggest problem I have with them is that the key story, the biggest thrust of the storytelling in the Original Trilogy (and the Prequels, for that matter) is the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker.  Once he is redeemed, the story is over.

 

The EU just feels wrong to me, like it was tacked on.

That's pretty much where I stand.

I think they're just trying to create a sense of being in a living, developing universe (yes there's the money to be made too, but that's the pessimist in me). Continuing the story line in both directions is simply a way to flesh out characters and events mentioned in the movies, and create a logical progrssion of the story.

[Guest starvenger]

I've read a bit of the EU, most noteably the first Thrawn series and Shadows of the Empire and they were... well... OK.

 

I agree.

 

But I did really enjoy both the Aaron Allston X-Wing books (the Stackpole ones were merely okay) and the Han Solo Trilogy by A. C. Crispin. Both have more of that Star Wars feel to them.

I agree with Kahran. I love all the X-Wing books simply because I'm a Wedge mark. Face it, he's a minor (at BEST) character in the movies and he survives the whole thing. Not only that, but a whole fan base has arisen about him. He's like the Rebel Boba Fett (according to the books, Fett DOES survive the Sarlacc BTW). The Thrawn series was excellent, and the early Han Solo series (young Solo) was also great.

I find that the EU works best when they work within the Star Wars universe, but deal more with the minor characters and the created characters, with some exceptions (i.e. the Thrawn trilogy, the NJO and the 2nd Han Solo trilogy). Yes it's great to have Luke, Leia and Han as centrepieces to the story but when you expand the stories on guys like Wedge and Fett (although the Bounty Hunter Wars was boring as hell) or delve into people like Corran Horn, Mara Jade and Thrawn it's more interesting.

 

My friend (who really likes the EU) calls me an "Orthodox Jedi" in reference to the fact that I am constantly annoyed by little things I see and read and hear about in the EU. For example, the ysalamiri. A living creature that pushes away the Force. I don't buy it. I just seems like a really cheesy way to keep the Jedi in the story (Luke, mostly) from doing anything, you know, cool. And don't get me started on the Yuzhon Vong "existing outside the Force" crap.

I think that there is that issue, but the idea was that they needed a conflict that really didn't rehash the movies too much. So going with a biotech extragalactic fleet (which for some reason I've always expected to have a "Cobra-Lalalalalalalalala" war cry) that destroys the New Republic seems to do that.

 

I guess I love the movies too much to buy into anything else. Besides, how much of the EU has Lucas rendered irrelevant as the series has continued?

I think Lucasfilm has people on payroll specifically to explain away whatever retcons he does, but there are a few things that stand out to me:

 

- C3PO doesn't remember Owen and Beru Lars in ANH when he lived with them for 10 years and presumably never had a memory wipe.

- The Death Star plans, which I can't think of specific examples right now, but I believe that in the EU it wasn't designed until after the Empire was formed.

- Splinter of the Mind's Eye is pretty much entirely contradicted, but then this was written BEFORE ESB, so it gets quite a bit of slack on that end.

- I'm pretty sure the Padawan-Master thing pisses over everything we learned about the Jedi apprenticeships as well.

 

However, Lucas did use the idea behind Coruscant (first named in the Thrawn trilogy, previously known as Imperial Centre) and how it was designed in RotJ:SE and the first two prequels. Oh, he also took the ideals behind the Sith (only a master and servant, naming yourself Darth (insert evil name here)) from the comics.

 

Anyways, there is quite a bit of crap in the EU novels. The original Solo trilogy and Lando Calrissian trilogy weren't very good, and a lot of the stuff between Zahn's Thrawn bookend series was of the "force-wielding threat of the quarter" type, which is why I don't recommend most of that stuff apart from the X-Wing novels and maybe the Jedi Academy trilogy, since it ties into the Dark Horse Comics "Tales of the Jedi" stuff.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I don't think the Ewoks were an attempt to draw in more kids.  Kids were the original target audience for the first two movies as well, and they did awfully well without Ewoks.  I also thought the Ewoks were used to create an ironic ending for the Empire.  Here you have this big bad powerful TECHNOLOGICALLY SOPHISTICATED galactic empire and they're taken down in the final battle in no small part due to small, physically weak creatures that use things like ROCKS as weapons.  How poetic. 

Star Wars (OT) and Jedi specifically are an allegory for the Vietnam War. The Ewoks (Vietnamese) defeat are technicologically superior and larger force, the Empire (United States). Also Darth Vader represents the old man who supports a strong military and the son refuses to fight him and wants peace instead.

 

And the Emporer is Richard Nixon.

That may very well be the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life.

 

 

If you drew that conclusion yourself; it's quite clever. But it's a VERY well known fact that the Star Wars story comes from the following sources:

• THE HIDDEN FORTRESS
• FLASH GORDON SERIALS
• DUNE

Vietnam War my ass.

[Guest Crucifixio Jones]

Damn, just as I was skimming the thread, Mr. Zsasz posts the very fucking thing I was about to.

 

Kudos, dude you saved me some time. Saturday afternoon serials (specifically Flash Gordon) and Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress were the inspiration and basis for SW, not any of this Nixon, Vietnam or Hitler crap.

[Guest Grand Slam]

I don't recommend most of that stuff apart from the X-Wing novels and maybe the Jedi Academy trilogy

 

The Jedi Academt Trilogy? I don't care what it ties in with, it was horrible! Just rancid! It was like the author went through the RPG books and said "That looks cool" and threw in names and places for no good reason. I kept reading, thinking "It can't be as bad as I think." But it was worse.

 

I don't mean to attack you really, everyone has the right to read whatever they want, I jst can't imagine anyone who both likes to read and has seen Star Wars recommending Anderson's series ever.