Return of the Jedi

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Damn, just as I was skimming the thread, Mr. Zsasz posts the very fucking thing I was about to.

 

Kudos, dude you saved me some time. Saturday afternoon serials (specifically Flash Gordon) and Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress were the inspiration and basis for SW, not any of this Nixon, Vietnam or Hitler crap.

What can I say, CJ? Great minds think alike.

 

 

Now only if we could agree about Hush...

[Guest starvenger]

I don't recommend most of that stuff apart from the X-Wing novels and maybe the Jedi Academy trilogy

 

The Jedi Academt Trilogy? I don't care what it ties in with, it was horrible! Just rancid! It was like the author went through the RPG books and said "That looks cool" and threw in names and places for no good reason. I kept reading, thinking "It can't be as bad as I think." But it was worse.

 

I don't mean to attack you really, everyone has the right to read whatever they want, I jst can't imagine anyone who both likes to read and has seen Star Wars recommending Anderson's series ever.

I was actually gonna say that if they had cut it down to a single book or a duology it would have been much better but I didn't. If they kept it to the Exar Kun/Kyp Durron/Jedi Academy plot I think it would have been more cohesive. But considering that Durron and the Jedi Academy are rather pivotal in the NJO series, I can't say that everything was bad about it. I also think the Wedge subplot helped to whet my appetite for the X-Wing series, so there may be some bias at play.

 

Still, if you've already read "I, Jedi", there's probably no need to read the trilogy.

[Guest SP-1]

Something that just occoured to me:

 

If you notice, the original trilogy started out very lighthearted as TPM did. And then ESB took a darker tone, as AOTC did. Should we assume that Lucas is using this theme if Light-Dark-Back to Light for the Prequels as well? It makes sense to use it, to me. Just wondering if anyone else picked up on it.

[Guest Dmann2000]

I don't think the Ewoks were an attempt to draw in more kids.  Kids were the original target audience for the first two movies as well, and they did awfully well without Ewoks.  I also thought the Ewoks were used to create an ironic ending for the Empire.  Here you have this big bad powerful TECHNOLOGICALLY SOPHISTICATED galactic empire and they're taken down in the final battle in no small part due to small, physically weak creatures that use things like ROCKS as weapons.  How poetic. 

Star Wars (OT) and Jedi specifically are an allegory for the Vietnam War. The Ewoks (Vietnamese) defeat are technicologically superior and larger force, the Empire (United States). Also Darth Vader represents the old man who supports a strong military and the son refuses to fight him and wants peace instead.

 

And the Emporer is Richard Nixon.

That may very well be the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life.

 

 

If you drew that conclusion yourself; it's quite clever. But it's a VERY well known fact that the Star Wars story comes from the following sources:

• THE HIDDEN FORTRESS
• FLASH GORDON SERIALS
• DUNE

Vietnam War my ass.

If you don't think at least in Jedi the overwhelmed Ewoks on their own planet beating the powerful Empire isn't in some way an allegory for the Vietcong surprising and holding off the U.S., take another look. I knew Lucas' main inspiration was Kurosawa and Flash Gordon, but he was a young man of the 60's/70's, and I know in either a TV or print interview he mentioned the similarities between the Ewoks and the Vietnamese.

[Guest Dmann2000]

Besides my fellow film students have agreed with me on this, so I know I'm not the only one.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

The Ewoks weren't even part of the story till they started shooting. It was supposed to be the Wookies and I can see them going over on account of their BEZERKER RAGE~!

 

 

Say it with me: The Ewoks are COMIC RELIEF.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Besides my fellow film students have agreed with me on this, so I know I'm not the only one.

Yeah, because they couldn't possibly be wrong.

 

 

[Guest Lethargic]

Something that just occoured to me:

 

If you notice, the original trilogy started out very lighthearted as TPM did. And then ESB took a darker tone, as AOTC did. Should we assume that Lucas is using this theme if Light-Dark-Back to Light for the Prequels as well? It makes sense to use it, to me. Just wondering if anyone else picked up on it.

People think that but I don't think it'll happen that way. Of course, this might be too much common sense for Lucas to handle, but the third one HAS to be the darkest out of all of them. The third movie has to be Anakin going evil and becoming Darth Vader, that alone can't allow the movie to end happy. Plus it also has to set up the Empire as being the evil ruler of the universe, how can a movie end happy like Jedi with the bad guys winning?

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Something that just occoured to me:

 

If you notice, the original trilogy started out very lighthearted as TPM did.  And then ESB took a darker tone, as AOTC did.  Should we assume that Lucas is using this theme if Light-Dark-Back to Light for the Prequels as well?  It makes sense to use it, to me.  Just wondering if anyone else picked up on it.

People think that but I don't think it'll happen that way. Of course, this might be too much common sense for Lucas to handle, but the third one HAS to be the darkest out of all of them. The third movie has to be Anakin going evil and becoming Darth Vader, that alone can't allow the movie to end happy. Plus it also has to set up the Empire as being the evil ruler of the universe, how can a movie end happy like Jedi with the bad guys winning?

Lethargic, I have NEVER heard anyone outside of SP say that.

 

 

Also, if it wasn't common sense enough that this will be dark, Lucas, the actors, and the producers have all said it will be dark.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

I thought when I was twelve or so that it was a Communist/Capitalist analogy. Evil Empire and all that, plus the free enterprise Cloud City being overtaken.

 

As for the Light/Dark/Light thing, I believe it's on the Special Edition video release, but Lucas says himself that the idea is that the second installment of any trilogy is meant to put the heroes into a seemingly unbeatable situation, to make the third part's triumph that much better.

 

No idea how they'll make the third one upbeat though.

[Guest Lethargic]

Lethargic, I have NEVER heard anyone outside of SP say that.

People have been saying it since PM went into production everywhere you look. Lucas himself said his goal was to have this trilogy mimic the tone of the original trilogy. He even discussed it on the audio commentary for Phantom Menace. He has softened on it a bit since then due to the PM backlash, but this same tone thing has been discussed since day one. At least here on planet Earth it has been.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I thought when I was twelve or so that it was a Communist/Capitalist analogy. Evil Empire and all that, plus the free enterprise Cloud City being overtaken.

 

As for the Light/Dark/Light thing, I believe it's on the Special Edition video release, but Lucas says himself that the idea is that the second installment of any trilogy is meant to put the heroes into a seemingly unbeatable situation, to make the third part's triumph that much better.

 

No idea how they'll make the third one upbeat though.

Yes, but this trilogy is set up differently. This one is tragedy, it has to end badly for the heroes due to the protagonist's hubris, or fatal weakness. (In this case, not doing his duty in the name of love)

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Lethargic, I have NEVER heard anyone outside of SP say that.

People have been saying it since PM went into production everywhere you look. Lucas himself said his goal was to have this trilogy mimic the tone of the original trilogy. He even discussed it on the audio commentary for Phantom Menace. He has softened on it a bit since then due to the PM backlash, but this same tone thing has been discussed since day one. At least here on planet Earth it has been.

I maintain that everywhere I go: AICN, CHUD, CC, Cinescape, C2F, etc. EVERYONE seems to know what's in store.

 

 

Which means your "Most people think" BS is wrong.

[Guest SP-1]

I was simply wondering if Lucas was going to do it that way. I'd much rather 3 be grizzly and brutal and dark. I'm not too sure I'll be satisfied if it isn't.

[Guest Lethargic]

I maintain that everywhere I go: AICN, CHUD, CC, Cinescape, C2F, etc. EVERYONE seems to know what's in store.

 

 

Which means your "Most people think" BS is wrong.

You sure you don't have the bizarro internet that's been going around? Cause on my internet all those websites say different.

 

Once again, the tone thing was his ORIGINAL plan. It changed a bit once he found out that making PM a kids movie didn't work out. So yes, the past couple of years he has changed his stance, but the plan was different for the previous 27 years.

 

My own personal opinion is that it won't turn out to be anywhere near as happy as Jedi, but it won't end nearly as dark as Empire either. I think it'll be right down the middle. What I expect to happen is some sort of ending that makes it SEEM like the good guys got a victory to them, so they go out on a good note, but WE will know that they didn't win a thing. Yes, Anakin will go bad and the Jedi will be destroyed, but in the end Obi Wan will come out on top. He'll throw Anakin into the volcano or whatever, then take the kids to safety. Obi Wan beats the bad guy, saves the kids, yay victory. But then we see Anakin being saved and we see the Emperor turn him into Vader and it ends with some sort of big Vader moment to let us know that dark side really won no matter what Obi Wan did.

 

Not exactly like that but you get the drift. The good guys don't go out on a TOTAL bummer. They get SOME sense of winning but in the end it's all about the darkside. Look at the Matrix. It ends with a very positive note. Good guys win, they get Neo. But in reality we still know that they didn't really win anything. It's still not over. The machines are still in control and they still have the power. Just because the human's found Neo, doesn't make them victorious. Neo beat Agent Smith but he didn't destroy him for good. In reality it's a pretty down the middle ending. The Matrix seemed to be able to do that, why can't Lucas? Oh yeah, cause he's too busy sucking.

[Guest SP-1]

All's I know is: I will MARK OUT when I see the Vader suit. And it better be in there.

[Guest Dmann2000]

Besides my fellow film students have agreed with me on this, so I know I'm not the only one.

Yeah, because they couldn't possibly be wrong.

 

 

I wasn't saying that because classmates of mine agreed that our view was right, I was saying that others shared my view, thus showing I wasn't the only one I knew who saw the same allegory in Jedi.

 

And it's not the size of the Ewoks that makes them stand-ins for the Vietnamese, it's their less industrial developed society. It would've worked as well with Wookies because it would've still shown a group of people beating a millitary power in their own backyard despite being overmatched in technology.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

I think we can all agree that ROTJ would have fucking rocked Empire if the planet HAD been Kashyyk and not Endor.

[Guest SP-1]

A Wookie War is far too great a thing. I'm not sure a trilogy of movies could handle it.

[Guest Blue Bacchus]

The only parts of the Prequels I like are the scenes with Palpatine and his scenes in RotJ are amazing. He alone made me side with the Empire.

 

<--- Used to be a HUUUUGE SW Nut

[Guest MrRant]

I always side with the Empire and the Dark Side. That is why I loved Tie Fighter so much.

[Rendclaw 0]

I don't recommend most of that stuff apart from the X-Wing novels and maybe the Jedi Academy trilogy

 

The Jedi Academt Trilogy? I don't care what it ties in with, it was horrible! Just rancid! It was like the author went through the RPG books and said "That looks cool" and threw in names and places for no good reason. I kept reading, thinking "It can't be as bad as I think." But it was worse.

 

I don't mean to attack you really, everyone has the right to read whatever they want, I jst can't imagine anyone who both likes to read and has seen Star Wars recommending Anderson's series ever.

I was actually gonna say that if they had cut it down to a single book or a duology it would have been much better but I didn't. If they kept it to the Exar Kun/Kyp Durron/Jedi Academy plot I think it would have been more cohesive. But considering that Durron and the Jedi Academy are rather pivotal in the NJO series, I can't say that everything was bad about it. I also think the Wedge subplot helped to whet my appetite for the X-Wing series, so there may be some bias at play.

 

Still, if you've already read "I, Jedi", there's probably no need to read the trilogy.

I, Jedi is the best single Star Wars novel out there right now, bar none.

 

I have always been a major fan of Michael Stackpole since he was writing Battletech novels. That respect only increased with his X-Wing novels, but I, Jedi was the blow off.

 

I would put his Dark Tide books up there, but I have refused to read anymore of the New Jedi Order books since Chewie was killed off and turning Han into a pathetic boozer.

 

To me, it was simply unforgiveable. Killing off any of the main characters was justa bad move, but as one of my gaming friends said, "Salvatore wrote it! Chewie will come back when he gets around to writing another one!"

 

Nah, too late for me.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

I read the Thrawn trilogy, the New Jedi Order trilogy, Truce at Bakura, and a couple of others that escape me at the moment. The Zahn novels kinda bore me, to be honest. I found the NJO trilogy and DARKSABER~! (or was it Deathsaber?) to be the best ones I've read, with Death/Darksaber being the one I can read over and over again. Maybe it's because I loooooooove how it was really the last gasp for the Empire as it was. Once it got to 10 years plus after the original films, I lost interest. It seemed like more books for nerdiness' sake than for actual storytelling.

 

Shadows of the Empire rocked it too. I can read that one multiple times as well.

[Rendclaw 0]

The CGI additions to the movies added to the experience, except for the dreaded "Greedo short first".. Props to Jay Spree for directing me to the petition website to get that scene removed... doubtful that Lucas is going to do that, but that was a ridiculous scene.

 

Holy shit! Someone gave me props!

 

Fuck Lucas. And while we're at it, fuck HGH, too. And Michael Jordan.

Jordan??

 

Whoa, back up there.... I seem to remember you givng him major props when watching a DVD of Ultimate Jordan

 

Whassupwitdat??

 

Unless of course, you;re mad at him for retiring.

[Rendclaw 0]

Something that just occoured to me:

 

If you notice, the original trilogy started out very lighthearted as TPM did. And then ESB took a darker tone, as AOTC did. Should we assume that Lucas is using this theme if Light-Dark-Back to Light for the Prequels as well? It makes sense to use it, to me. Just wondering if anyone else picked up on it.

That why I am so down on the new trilogy, Spider... its following the original trilogy FAR too closely in formula.

 

The Jedi Academy novels were horrible, the Corellian Trilogy was almost as bad.... I cannot understand how people love the second Han Solo trilogy (which they should make a TV series out of) and crap on the original one which was written in freaking *1979*, and STILL blows away 75% of the novels put out by contemporary authors. One of Lucas' main problems with the Han Solo character was that he had no history. Hell, Brian freaking Daley gave that character a history and Ann Crispin fleshed it out and gave it massive depth.

 

I spoke my piece about the NJO, and nuff said.

 

(Admitted Stackpole Mark)

[Guest Grand Slam]

I think the "idea" of NJO was good. Make a break with the previous stuff and start a new, cohesive, very involved storyline. Good idea considering the morass they were in. I mean, come on, there are only so many times the twins can be kidnapped.

 

My biggest problem with NJO is the Yuzhon Vong. I like the bio-mechanical idea. I think it is a nice change to the Star Wars mechanical universe. I do not like the "They exist outside the Force" thing. Makes no sense at all given what we are told in the movies about the Force.

 

And when I said I gave up reading the EU after KJA's abortion of a trilogy, I meant it. I quit them there. I didn't need to tarnish my image of the Star Wars universe with more of the EU.

[Guest starvenger]

The Jedi Academy novels were horrible, the Corellian Trilogy was almost as bad.... I cannot understand how people love the second Han Solo trilogy (which they should make a TV series out of) and crap on the original one which was written in freaking *1979*, and STILL blows away 75% of the novels put out by contemporary authors. One of Lucas' main problems with the Han Solo character was that he had no history. Hell, Brian freaking Daley gave that character a history and Ann Crispin fleshed it out and gave it massive depth.

The main problem I had with Daley's trilogy was that it seemed like a sci-fi adventure with Star Wars characters thrown into the mix. If you read his Robotech novels (co-written with James Luceno) then you know he was capable of much better when playing in someone else's universe.

 

EU trilogies to avoid at all costs: The Bounty Hunter Wars, The Corellian trilogy, the Black Fleet Crisis, the Lando trilogy and the Callista "trilogy" (Children of the Jedi, Darksaber, Planet of Twilight). Bounty Hunter Wars, in particular, is a very good cure for insomnia. They sit on my shelf, and if I can't sleep I just LOOK at them and it puts me out.

 

Oh, and unless you buy all the EU novels (like I do) then avoid the prequel era ones. Rogue Planet is more of a tie-in to the NJO (and thus has at least some significance upon the EU) and the others remind me of Star Trek: Voyager where a lot of stuff happens but at the end of the hour the status quo is maintained. Hopefully Shatterpoint (featuring Mace "BMF" Windu) changes that a bit.

 

That why I am so down on the new trilogy, Spider... its following the original trilogy FAR too closely in formula.

If that's the case, we should expect a climatic space battle aboard a half-completed Nemoidian battle station...

[Guest Grand Slam]

Here's the thing though... it is supposed to be a very similar story for the main character (Anakin and Luke). I think it kinda cool actually, a nice duality between father and son, with the son almost following his father's path, but saving himself and redeeming his father at the same time.

 

Think about it...

- Anakin & Luke grow up in poverty on Tatooine, neither knowing their true potential. In each case, it was a parental fgure who knew there was something special, but kept it from them.

 

- Both are brought into the "story" by a wise old Jedi Master who tells them the truth of their situation, starts to teach them about the Force, becomes a surrogate parent, and dies, leaving the boy "alone".

 

- Both struggle with the loss of "parents". Though, in a continuing trend, Luke handles it far better than his father.

 

- Both are fully trained by another Jedi who is concerned about their advanced age.

 

- Both scarifice their training to help their friends. and family. In Anakin's case, he leaves Naboo to help his mother (ends badly), then leaves Tatooine to help Obi-Wan (ends badly). Finally, he breaks a big rule by marrying Padme (and we know that ends badly). Luke leaves Dagobah to help his friends (ends badly).

 

- In the end though, Anakin will succumb to the temptation that Luke did not. The real crux of the story, the hinge the entire saga pivots on is one scene in Jedi:

Luke: I am a Jedi, as my father before me.

Emperor: So be it... Jedi.

The Emperor finally admits that Luke is a Jedi and will not be turned. That final act sets in motion the events that will redeem Vader.

 

Therefore, I can see there will be a lot of similarities between Jedi and III, but I think they will have a dark twist as Anakin falls to the Dark Side.

[Rendclaw 0]

oh it HAS to go dark.... I think Rise of the Empire will feel more like the end of ESB when all is said and done... The good guys limping away while the bad guys increase in power... with Yoda and Obi-wan going into hiding as the Jedi Order get obliterated, it only stands to reason that people are going to walk away either marking out for the Vader debut (majority) and/or feeling uneasy.

 

starvenger: Oh I liked the general idea of the Yuuzhan Vong, but considering how the Jedi Order at that time was going, they *had* to be Force-immune to make it work.

[Guest MrRant]

I've said it before but I'll say it again. I want Anakin to go ape shit at no later than the 30-45min mark and be evil so we can see the growth to Vader as Obi-Wan/Yoda try and stop him and fail as all the rest of the Jedi are killed off.