Return of the Jedi

[Guest phoenixrising]

Great thread, and I'm loving the love the X-Wing novel series is getting. I used to play X-Wing/TIE Fighter a lot and that really got me into the X-Wing series. Plus it's nice to see what they've been able to do with Wedge Antillies, from bit player to most feared starfighter pilot in the galaxy.

 

I've never been able to get into the rest of the EU though. Other than the entire X-Wing run, I have four other EU books on my shelf that I gave a once over and left them there.

 

Phantom Menace: It was a good movie, I don't regret spending my money to see it but I think that the expectations were so high cause it was the first Star Wars movie in twenty years that anything was going to get bashed no matter how good it was. AOTC was a GREAT movie, other than Anakin's whiny teenager attitude. The last hour was awesome, and the whole damn theater erupted when Yoda opened cans of whoop-ass on Dooku.

 

And I never really got into Empire Strikes Back mostly because I think the Luke training with Yoda storyline is boring and there isn't a lot of action going on in terms of big battles. I loved Return of the Jedi, and I don't mind the Ewoks. I do have to resist the urge to kill Jar Jar but thankfully they've drastically reduced his role (even though he was the one who voted to disband the Senate and give power to Palpatine, so you could say he was THE key figure in creating the Empire).

[Guest SP-1]

The Yoda moment was awesome when I saw it. My friends and I were there on opening day at 12:01 AM (AKA: The Geek Screening). You'd have thought we were a bunch of Hogan fans watching Rock vs Hogan or something. Huge markage once Yoda laid out just WHY he's a Jedi Master.

[Guest Lethargic]

To me the true difference between the original trilogy and the new ones is the acting and the cast. You look at the people in the new movies and there are some big names and some talented people. But yet, none of them really seem to fit the roles like the people in the original movies did. The people in the originals may not be Oscar winners but they fit their roles like a glove and what they lacked in talent they made up for in charisma and personality. They fill those roles with life. Hamill is perfect as the wide eyed farm boy, Fisher is perfect as the spunky go get 'em Princess, Ford is perfect as the reluctant hero. They're all extremely likable and fun to watch. These people make you want to take this journey with them cause they're having so much fun doing it. It doesn't matter how stupid the lines are or what the FX looks like because the cast is so likable that it makes you ignore it. These are people easy to cheer for. I truly like these people when I watch those movies. That's why I still get goosebumps when Luke is staring at those two suns, that's why I want to cry when Luke is speeding home to find his family dead, why I still get worried when that trash compacter is closing in on them, why I still cheer when I hear "YAHOOOOO! You're all clear, kid. Now let's blow this thing and go home!" Despite all the sterotypical hollow characters and bad dialogue, this cast is perfect, they've become a part of our lives now because of this.

 

None of that is because of the FX which is what Lucas doesn't understand. He got all the praise because of the techincal aspect so that's all he worries about now. I remember a story from Terence Stamp who said the reason he signed on for Phantom Menace was because he wanted to work with the cast. He wanted to work with Neeson, McGregor, Portman and the rest of them. He said he showed up on set one day to do a scene with Portman and she wasn't there. He asked about it and Lucas said he gave her the day off. He asked how in the world they were going to do the scene without her, Lucas said they'd add her in later, handed him a pole with a blue dot on it and told him to just say his lines to the stick.

 

You can NOT make a movie like that. That is exactly why the Phantom Menace and Clones COMPLETELY lack the fun, energy, excitement and life of the original movies. Every actor just walks around and says their lines in this droll, ho-hum, I'm acting with a stick kind of way. This cast doesn't make you forget about the corny lines or anything else. Lucas seems to think by putting 100 million dollars worth of CGI robots into the movie, we'll ignore it. The problem is, we don't care at that point. Neeson's character is so boring and so unlikable that by time he gets killed by Darth Maul, I truly don't care. I was happy to see him gone. I don't care. I don't care when these characters are in trouble because I don't like them one bit. And in movies like this, if you don't care about the characters, then nothing else matters.

[Guest starvenger]

I don't think it's so much the cast, it's Lucas himself. I've been thinking recently that Lucas = Vince McMahon, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[Guest SP-1]

I don't think it's so much the cast, it's Lucas himself. I've been thinking recently that Lucas = Vince McMahon, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I have to wonder myself. Which is strange since so many people have described him as basically Yoda in a flannel shirt.

[Guest Lethargic]

I don't think it's so much the cast, it's Lucas himself. I've been thinking recently that Lucas = Vince McMahon, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I think it's a mixture of both. Like I said, with Lucas making actors act with sticks, you can't get a good performance out of that. That's stupid. We've all seen these people do great in other movies, but here they're pretty terrible. That's all Lucas' fault. On the other hand pretty much ever major character is a star now. In the original's they were mostly no names. Alec Guiness being the only really big name in the movie, and I'd say that most people out of my generation didn't even know who he was either until AFTER Star Wars. So casting unknowns made them the character so they're easier to believe. When I watch that, I see Luke, Leia and Han. I watch the new ones I see Oskar Schindler, Jules, Rent-Boy and Mathilda.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

I like the prequels, but I will admit that McGregor is the only one who is going to get out of this unscathed out of the main guys.

 

Peter Cushing was reasonably well known in the original. He wasn't Alec Guiness, but at least people knew who he was.

[Guest caboose]

The problem with the new prequels, is not so much that they are bad. I enjoyed them enough, but they lack that 'Star Wars Feel'. I can't quite put my finger on it, but they seem more like Hollywood blockbusters than films about a galaxy far, far away.

 

Either that or theres my Star Wars prequel theory as to why no one likes them:

 

Caboose's 'We Want It Our Way Theory':

 

Everyone has seen the original Star Wars films. Evreyone who likes them, has seen them on many, many occasions. Everyone who loved the originals and saw them more than a year before the first prequel has imagined there own plot as to how things end up the way they are at the start of 'A New Hope'. Some people have waited almost 20 years for the prequels. And in those 20 years they have run through their own 'Star Wars Prequels' numerous times in their own minds.

So when they see Lucas' story unfold, fans sub concisely compare it to their own, which may have tighter plots, different characters etc.

So in comparison, Lucas' offering is weaker to our own. But to be fair, it's his idea and we shouldn't swear death on him, because he is making them.

[Guest goodhelmet]

Jedi was always my favorite of the originals. It was until the internet came along that I found out it wasn't cool to like Jedi and that if you're a real fan you must list Empire as your favorite cause it's darker.

no shit! i still maintain that the "A New Hope" is still the best movie of any of them. Maybe it's because Alec Guinness had such a prominent role. Maybe because it is the one film that stands on its own.

[Rendclaw 0]

how can you say that ESB does not stand on its own?

 

While ANH did a great job is setting the table, ESB came along when everyone was feeling oh so good and kicked them right in the crotch. I remember being horrified at the age of 11 seeing the Rebellion defeated at Hoth, to only have that horror redoubled when Vader sliced off Luke's hand. to letting out a breath I didn't know I had been holding when Artoo fixed the Falcon;s hyperdrive and they got away by the skin of their teeth.

 

I am a fan, not a "real fan" as was alluded to earlier. I think out of the three original movies, ESB told the best story out of them. That's just my opinion.

 

Talikg to a stick???? no wonder I felt like a lot of the acting was wooden, even though you had great actors in the roles.... Also, I think that the overall, formal backdrop setting of the Republic made the characters seem stiff... I think Liam Neeson did a good job as Qui-Gon, a Jedi whose methods don't always find favor with the Jedi Order.

 

And let's face it: who the HELL isn't whiny as a teen with angst like Anakin was? I know I was.

[Guest Spaceman Spiff]

how can you say that ESB does not stand on its own?

"Standing on its own" means it is a self-contained movie. In ANH, you have the Death Star being blown up, Vader being blasted off into deep space, and the Luke & Han returning as heros. ANH could exist as a stand-alone movie.

 

ESB isn't. Stuff like Vader wanting to capture the Falcon, the introduction to the Force, the sexual tension between Han/Luke/Leia, and Luke's plight were all set up in ANH. Not to mention the Rebellion being beaten down and on the run at the end of ESB. ESB just can't be a stand-alone film.

[Guest Lethargic]

ESB doesn't stand on it's own because if you haven't seen Star Wars you don't know how it started and if you haven't seen Jedi you don't know how it ends. That's pretty easy to explain. Star Wars is the only one out of all of them that can stand on it's own because even though he had all the others planned, he didn't know he'd get a chance to make them, so it actually has something of a complete ending to it.

 

I don't really agree with the we wanted the prequels our way argument. Quite frankly I NEVER anticipated how these prequel movies would be. MY big problem with them is that they are completely un-needed. I truly don't care about what happened BEFORE Star Wars, I wanted to see sequels, not crap that sets up stuff we've already seen. I want to see how the characters we already know are doing 20 years later. That's what I care about. Watching these movies is about as anti-climatic as it gets. It's like watching Titanic. We already know the ship is gonna sink and we already know that Anakin is going bad, turning into Vader, Padme has twins, they get split up, Empire takes over, blah blah blah. We know everything that is going to happen. So all this other crap just makes me say so what? I really could've went the rest of my life without knowing EXACTLY how the Empire took over or EXACTLY what made Anakin go bad or where Storm Troopers came from. I'd rather still have Darth's birth be a mystery. I don't need to see Boba Fett and Greedo as little kids. I wanna see a future story that we have no clue about, not stories from the past that we basically know already. So I agree with the argument a bit in that it's not that I expected something from the prequels, it's that I just didn't want them at all in the first place. I think the sequels would've been much better and would've told a much more interesting story. It also would've helped with all the CGI stuff. It also would've helped a lot of the questions like "what does this happen in the past (current trilogy), but not in the future (the original trilogy)." Like, how come R2 could fly 20 years ago but can't in Star Wars or Empire or Jedi when a flying R2 might've came in handy? Why did they know about the midi-clorians or whatever 20 years ago but not in the future? Remember the backlash over the robots? Everybody wondering why the Empire would replace robots with stormtroopers until they explained it Clones? Nobody would've cared if it had been the other way around and they had replaced stormtroopers with some bad ass CGI robots, it would've made sense for technology to advance. Instead, now it seems to go backwards.

[Guest SP-1]

Something I noticed in AOTC might explain the technological contradictions. MAYBE. if Lucas bends over backwards and flips forward three times to explain it.

 

All I'll say is, did anyone else notice anything familiar about the insides of the Cloner's buildings?

[Guest MrRant]

Vaguely... don't make me put in the DVD.

[Guest SP-1]

Do it, Rant. And think about the original trilogy. I know I can't be the only one to think there's something suspicious going on.

[Guest SP-1]

Since we already have a good little Warsie thread going here, I want to mention something I just saw.

 

Over at the fan films section of theforce.net, there's a little f/x short called "Art of the Sabre". It's really, really good and much different from the norm. While it plays with the Jedi having a lover thing, it's a departure that I can accept because, well, it's just really good. I suggest checking it out.

[Guest Lethargic]

Do it, Rant. And think about the original trilogy. I know I can't be the only one to think there's something suspicious going on.

Why can't you just say what it is instead of trying to create a mystery about it?

[Guest SP-1]

Have you ever seen the bitching if something turns out to be a spoiler around here? It's a simple theory of mine that's very loose. I wanted to see if someone else picked up on it, too.

[Guest Lethargic]

Spoiler (Highlight to Read):

That's what these things are for, right?

[Guest SP-1]

True.

 

Here's my theory, and remember, it's extremely loose with little backup, and it intertwines with my Dooku theory.

 

Spoiler (Highlight to Read):

The look of the Cloners walls and panels reminds me greatly of the Empire's general scheme. Though I could be very, very wrong. I think there may be more involvement from the Cloners yet that may deal with the relative technological poverty in the original trilogy in comparison to how things are in the prequel trilogy so far.

 

I'm prolly the only person to really think of it though. Which means it's likely very, very stupid and wrong.

[Guest Lethargic]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I would never have noticed that. haha

[Guest BorneAgain]

I have a few basic problems with the prequels. First off, we don't need C-3PO or R2, the trade federation, Naboo, Jar Jar, or Anakin as a 10 year old kid. Why? Because no one gives a damn about them and they're completly useless to the story. I mean honestly would have been so hard for Lucas to make Padme's home planet be Aldderan or show Anakin as a teenager in the first prequel? Plus, the entire Trade Federation stuff is complete nonsense. Why not just show the mass corruption that occured in the Old Republic that led to the Clone Wars. No boring plot about blockades and such needed. And that leads to my next complaint. The pace of the trilogy. At the rate Lucas is going, he'll have to dump pretty much everything about the Clone Wars in Episode III. What he should have done is make Episode I the beginning of the War, have Episode II right in the middle of it, and use episode III to end it with the rise of the Empire. I know this sounds like the bitter ravings of a Star Wars geek gone mad, but these are such simple concepts, that it frustrates me to see Lucas ignore them.

[Guest SP-1]

Yes but despite it's cover, Star Wars has never been a war series. It's a character piece at heart. Part of WHY Anakin is so screwed up is that he's a kid that left his mother to young to embark on Jedi training when he was too old. He lost the first father figure he ever had (Quai-Gon) and is at odds with the "big brother" in Obi-Wan. In all that, he's also had to deal with the possibility of being a Chosen One whose destiny is supposed to change everything by bringing balance back to the Force.

 

Psychologically, those things can screw a kid up. Add to it that the manipulative Palpatine has apparently started to take him under his wing (no doubt in another Father-type role), he's fallen in love, which is forbidden . . . these are all important factors to the fall of Anakin Skywalker. Which is the point of the prequels, more than any Clone War or anything else, in my opinion. Because the meat of the story for the original trilogy was the redemption of Anakin Skywalker.

 

I'm intrigued to see if Lucas will stop hinting at the psychology and finally bring it to the fore in III instead of some huge f/x driven war where Anakin just happens to lose it. I'll be disappointed if he doesn't.

 

That's just my take.

 

SSP

[Guest Spaceman Spiff]

I think Anakin should have been a bit older in TPM. Definitely a teenager, but a few years younger than Amidala. It's a bit distracting in AOTC when Amidala looks to have aged only a few years, while Anakin looks to have aged 8.

 

And I dug the Trade Federation stuff. Basically, it's just a device to show how Palpatine is manipulating *EVERYTHING* behind the scenes. He forces the Neimoidians into the blockade of his home planet, knowing that the Senate couldn't do anything, which enables him to force a vote of no-confidence, knowing that he'll get the sympathy vote to be the new Chancellor of the Senate. A beautiful piece of manipulation. That shows how Palpatine came into power, which is a *BIG* part of the original trilogy.

[Guest SP-1]

BINGO.

 

The political machinations of Palpatine are actually pretty amazing to watch. If I've kept up well, he's pretty much manipulating BOTH sides of the Clone War, isn't he?

[Guest MrRant]

I'm just worred about the timeframe to turn Anakin etc.

 

Unless the movie is going to be 2-4 hours.

[Guest BorneAgain]

Yes but despite it's cover, Star Wars has never been a war series. It's a character piece at heart. Part of WHY Anakin is so screwed up is that he's a kid that left his mother to young to embark on Jedi training when he was too old. He lost the first father figure he ever had (Quai-Gon) and is at odds with the "big brother" in Obi-Wan. In all that, he's also had to deal with the possibility of being a Chosen One whose destiny is supposed to change everything by bringing balance back to the Force.

 

Psychologically, those things can screw a kid up. Add to it that the manipulative Palpatine has apparently started to take him under his wing (no doubt in another Father-type role), he's fallen in love, which is forbidden . . . these are all important factors to the fall of Anakin Skywalker. Which is the point of the prequels, more than any Clone War or anything else, in my opinion. Because the meat of the story for the original trilogy was the redemption of Anakin Skywalker.

Okay, that's a good point, Anakin's fall is the point of the story. I'm not denying that. All I'm saying is that if Lucas should do the Clone Wars justice or not focus on them at all, because otherwise, it's just a waste of time and effort. And besides, the fall of the Old Republic would have been a great parallel to Anakin's. As for the Trade Federation storyline, maybe I was a little too harsh on it. It is a great example of Palpatine's evil genius, I just hope there's a kick ass pay-off in Episode III where the senators and the Jedi Council find out they've been manipulated, but realize its too late to do anything about it.

[Guest SP-1]

I've a feeling that Yoda and Mace are hiding something. III is gonna rock if Lucas handles it right.

[Guest starvenger]

I've a feeling that Yoda and Mace are hiding something. III is gonna rock if Lucas handles it right.

Forbidden gay Jedi love. Next on Springer...