What would it take for the United States...

[Guest Downhome]

All of this with us going to Iraq and basicly totally replacing it's government, the talk of us possibly doing it in other nations, and even what we did in Afghanistan has got me to thinking. Just what would it take for the United States to fall? Would it take nations such as France, Germany, Russia, and North Korea and the such joining forces to do so? How about a dreaded double whammy from the Canadians and Mexicans!? Or do you feel that the only that that the US could fall, is some sort of civil unrest, or cival war if you will. Or hell...

 

...do you think it's even POSSIBLE?

 

If other nations decided to attack us, would the majority of the public just stand by and let whatever happens happen, or would the common man and woman stand up and fight for their own Country, for their freedom, for the US?

 

I don't know, I was just wondering what you thought of this. I obviously never see it happening, and in no way want it to. It's just one of those things to toss around, that is all.

 

Sincerely,

...Downhome...

[Guest bob_barron]

I don' think it well ever fall but SKBF has a different opinion-

 

http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/index.php?...72&t=15415&st=0

[Guest Powerplay]

Hey, that has one of my better quotes in there. Cool.

[Guest B-X]

Realistically, I don't think the US will "fall" per se, but it'll be a gradual decline

[Guest Powerplay]

TC is gonna be pissed for gimmick infringement. Oh, and I love that thread. Watching Cletus the Bloody/Ozymandis getting owned by just about EVERYONE is just hilarious.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Okay, all these gimmick posters lately have started to really get on my damn nerves.

 

Either keep this shit in NHB or don't do it at all. That's the only warning I'm giving here. Post more useless junk and you're banned.

 

Oh, and consider all these pointless posts deleted, as well.

[Guest treble charged]

No, don't delete Bob's post. He doesn't mean to be pointless.

[Conspiracy_Victim 0]

Man. looking through that topic was hilarious. SKBF and Cletus/Ozymandias with their "Well I'm right because I BELIEVE I'm right" method of public debate makes me laugh.

 

I especially like SKBF's plan to put America on the true path of Socialism and Ozy's insistence that Gore won, any and all recounts notwithstanding.

 

As for the question at hand, it would take a huge number of factors working together to bring America down. However, like all great "world" powers of their respective times, America will eventually decline. I just hope it's after I'm planted in the ground with my "Try and Stop Us!" Homer Simpson T-shirt.

[Guest NoCalMike]

Interestingly enough, I had this conversation as I was leaving work today. First off, it would be one hell of a battle. Secondly, if the USA was conquered by whatever coalition there was, immediately following, the coalition would NO DOUBT end up killing off each other in order to try to posses the most resources available in this great land. You'll see this same type of thing taking place once the Iraq War is 100% complete. The so-called "coalition" will start to break up and each group of country men will attempt to take over and control what they are ordered to. Since Iraq basically only has one HUGE resource(oil) I'd say there will be secret deals cut and then every country will get to claim victory to their home country.

[Guest Vyce]

You know, I think I've become a fan of Marney after reading that post.

[Guest EricMM]

I mark for food wagons and $10 computers

[Zorin Industries 0]

Back on topic for a second, I think one of the only things that would really cause America to fall would be a 2nd civil war, but that dosen't seem likely in the near future, but in 30 - 40 years who knows.

 

The only other thing would be a gradual decline that every superpower faces and the emergence of a new one, but I don't see that one for a long time either.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

SKBF fawning over Gore Vidal is pretty amusing.

 

I'm wondering if the U.S. will decline. There's never been another country like it in history. It came out of a Civil War has well as can expected. Obviosuly no one can see into the future, and one's definition of declining differs. Could this possibilily be the system of gov't that bucks that historic trend and the US remains a superpower for many generations.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

However, like all great "world" powers of their respective times, America will eventually decline.

I'm not naive and jingoistic enough to believe that there's no chance of a fall. That being said, I think if you truly believe in the goodness of this country's ideals you have to believe they will prevail. The real patriot will look at our Constitution (the shortest and longest-standing, btw) as being set up to prevent a collapse. And they will fight for it when/if it comes under attack.

[Zorin Industries 0]

Vern, that is what every superpower thinks, i'm sure that ancient Rome thought that the empire would last forever.

 

I could see the USA lasting a long time as it is very powerful and in a good postion, however I have always believed that things like this are cyclical and eventually it will be another countries turn.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

There is always potential for a second civil war... a lot of people have suggested it might come with the rise of the next generation, and how we're paying for something we're not gonna get (Social Security) and losing much of our paychecks just to prop up the older generation. This civil war wouldn't be a bloody one, it'd be a takeover of the system by the younger generation and might be considered a revolution of sorts instead... just an influx of younger blood into our political spectrum. I think we, as a society, have progressed past the point of a bloody war for a cause within our own country (except the sad, stupid few) and I doubt that would ever happen again.

[Guest WhenDanSaysJump]

Scenario 1 : Civil war tearing USA asunder from within.

 

Scenario 2 : Every other country on the planet teams up against America.

 

Both highly unlikely.

[Conspiracy_Victim 0]

However, like all great "world" powers of their respective times, America will eventually decline.

I'm not naive and jingoistic enough to believe that there's no chance of a fall. That being said, I think if you truly believe in the goodness of this country's ideals you have to believe they will prevail. The real patriot will look at our Constitution (the shortest and longest-standing, btw) as being set up to prevent a collapse. And they will fight for it when/if it comes under attack.

Questioning my patriotism aside, what world power has existed forever? Rome? Overextended, brought in divisive racial and ethnic groups, fell to outside invasion? Britain? Their colonialism fell apart all over the world. Spain? Beaten back by England and France.

 

It's a historical fact. Outside influences when combined with a variety of internal factors (economic, political, social etc.) result in a society's decline. I'm not saying we're going to end up a third world country or anything, just that we might eventually "fall back" a bit to the rest of the pack.

[Guest EricMM]

I mean sure, eventually something is going to lead to America falling by the wayside. It probably will be a civil war or something taking over.

 

But not soon. Maybe in a couple centuries.

 

If anyone thinks that civil war is approaching due to social security, you're off your rocker. The Civil war had to do with roughly half the country's states being TOTALLY dissatisfied with America, everyone from the farmers to the senators. EVERYONE. The youth of America isn't going to lead no civil war.

 

PLUS the fact is it's not NECESSARY, I mean if Social security is pissing off that many Americans it will be eliminated.

 

See, the Civil War was basically unavoidable due to cultural differences existing since America's basic inception. That's why it happened within a hundred years. The colonies became a country and almost immediately started fighting. We've settled our differences. TX and WA and MA don't have radically different cultures anymore.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

A civil war over the Social Security issue is more of a metaphor, if you had read the second half of my post.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I don't see the US falling for another 200 years. I think eventually another imperialistic power will rise and there will be a huge war, and we'll lose.

 

But that's not for a while.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

Vern, that is what every superpower thinks, i'm sure that ancient Rome thought that the empire would last forever.

I don't think this superpower is like any history has seen before. The freedom that we have are greater than anything the Roman Empire had.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Vern, that is what every superpower thinks, i'm sure that ancient Rome thought that the empire would last forever.

I don't think this superpower is like any history has seen before. The freedom that we have are greater than anything the Roman Empire had.

Yes and that allows a greater opportunity for a foriegn power to exploit a corrupt bueracracy.

[Guest EricMM]

I'm sorry, I didn't read your whole post.

 

I think that you're right, change will just sort of happen. But I don't think any change will weaken America.

 

There will always be people in control of things that will keep American interests ahead. America got where it is today because our basic society forces us to be efficent. We similarly treat the world in the same way. So the most efficent people take control in America, and they stay in control because they're so good at it.

 

That's not going to change.

[Guest The Hamburglar]

Its hard to see how the USA itself could fall, because geographically it is so much more relatively isolated than previous great powers. There's no-one to just chip away at it. However, at some point or another the economic and cultural influence of the USA will fall, that's a given. That doesn't mean the whole country will fall into ruin, just that the vast majority of the world won't follow its lead anymore. Sort of like Europe's ended up, really. The great European powers retain most of what they had back when they were global powers, with the exception of the whole global part.

[Guest KanadianKrusty]

It will take a few centuries, but slowly, the U.S is going to fall back, a civil war a) won't happen, b) wouldn't have as much of an impact as some of you think IMO.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

However, like all great "world" powers of their respective times, America will eventually decline.

I'm not naive and jingoistic enough to believe that there's no chance of a fall. That being said, I think if you truly believe in the goodness of this country's ideals you have to believe they will prevail. The real patriot will look at our Constitution (the shortest and longest-standing, btw) as being set up to prevent a collapse. And they will fight for it when/if it comes under attack.

Questioning my patriotism aside, what world power has existed forever? Rome? Overextended, brought in divisive racial and ethnic groups, fell to outside invasion? Britain? Their colonialism fell apart all over the world. Spain? Beaten back by England and France.

 

It's a historical fact. Outside influences when combined with a variety of internal factors (economic, political, social etc.) result in a society's decline. I'm not saying we're going to end up a third world country or anything, just that we might eventually "fall back" a bit to the rest of the pack.

1. I wasn't questioning "you" as in you specifically, it was a "you" in general.

 

2. I was talking about an actual fall, not a loss of world influence.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

It will fall eventually just like every other great culture. Europeans, the Japanese, the European-Americans, etc., are those who promoted the progress of human civilization, those cultures are now in trouble because their populations are growing old. The sophisticated cultures see progress in women being equal, women then choose careers over family. The highly successful, the brightest people are usually going to prioritize materialistic success over having a large family, it severly affects the population pattern which kept growing cultures healthy.

 

Look at the third world, the more poverty the more children they tend to have because they don't know any better. It's deevolution, those most worthy of going extinct are seeing their populations continue to boom while those on the top of the food chain are seeing their populations die.

 

The U.S. won't fall overnight but I do see a decline away from where it is now.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

The US won't be conquered.

 

Likely it will take an overextension of itself and breakup from within, a long gradual decline, or a major geologic or climatic event that pretty much wipes out North America.

[Guest EricMM]

Dragonfly Kid there are a few responses to that argument.

 

The first is immigration. I don't know what the growth of the U.S. is without immigration, but even if it was negative (which I'm 99% sure it's not) there are always going to be immigrants looking to move from the places you talked about with many many people and totally shitty living standards. And you know as well as I do that the rich people and the influential people in America aren't the majority.

 

Look, even if Germany and a few other countries in Europe have zero growth rates or less, even if their populations decline, in the forseeable future India is never going to be as influential. Numbers of people don't mean shit if the per capita, GDP, and everything else are squat.

 

They're just more likely to live hungry diseased lifestyles that lead to shortened lifespans, lower education, and zero improvement.

 

This is all just in counter to the statement about America getting too old. This may even happen, it's happening now. The baby boomers are growing up. And maybe they may not get the care they'll need as elderly citizens. And that's horrible. But it won't lead to America's downfall.