Israeli sniper shoots peace activist in the face

[Guest Cancer Marney]

I personally despise racists who write off entire cultures on the actions of some crackpot extremists while applying ridiculous double-standards of what qualifies as a "glorifying death"

Glorifying death is defined as rejoicing in the murder of 4 year-old children, unarmed civilians, and other innocents. The Israeli armed forces apologise, investigate, and punish such murderers. The Palestinians call them "heroes" and "martyrs."

 

Consider your conjectures about his opinions absolute truth if you wish. The rest of us will suspend judgement and wait for the facts...

In other words, even though you don't have any substantial facts to back any of this up, you're still going to go into desperate tinfoil speculation to save face.

No, in precisely the same words, I'm going to SUSPEND JUDGEMENT and WAIT FOR THE FACTS.

Let me know if you're still confused.

 

There's no secret about him being around fellow activists at the time of the shooting. If you're attempting to claim that they slapped a jacket on the body and posed the body for a photo op, that's even more implausible

Not impossible, but implausible, I agree. Anyway, I never implied that at all. I was disputing B-X's earlier implication; see below.

 

I said, based on the initial information that if a sniper is firing into a crowd, those who are not armed and not firing back shouldn't be intentionally targeted. We've now found out that the fire was from a tank. We don't know if it was accidental, intentional, meant for someone else, or what.

I wasn't attacking a straw man or setting one up; I was simply following the line of reasoning of other people in this thread - posts which you took it on yourself to respond to - whose reasoning you don't seem to share. Fair enough. In that case, you should make your own views clear at the beginning, rather than indulging in invective right off the bat and then claiming you were misunderstood. B-X's post clearly implied that Hurndall was just a random selfless passer-by with no interest in the genocidal plans of the Palestinians. That was clearly not the case.

 

Besides, if he was considered a threat, even if he was wearing an orange jacket, the defense report listed him in "tiger fatigues." Why didn't they list him in "bright orange vest"?

I didn't write the report, so I don't know.

[Guest B-X]

Blame the sub-human monkey terrorists.

         -=Mike

Hooray.

 

Racism.

Hooray.

 

Someone who didn't read the post fully.

It doesn't matter if he slapped the "terrorists" qualifier onto that statement. It's still reeks of racism.

 

And I used to hear the term "sub-human monkey" a lot. Where I'm from, it's the nice way to say "nigger". So excuse me if the term doesnt have any positive connotations to me.

[Guest Powerplay]

Blame the sub-human monkey terrorists.

         -=Mike

Hooray.

 

Racism.

Hooray.

 

Someone who didn't read the post fully.

It doesn't matter if he slapped the "terrorists" qualifier onto that statement. It's still reeks of racism.

 

And I used to hear the term "sub-human monkey" a lot. Where I'm from, it's the nice way to say "nigger". So excuse me if the term doesnt have any positive connotations to me.

Oh, give me a break. It smells of as much racism as calling the KKK a bunch of dog-minded hicks. There is nothing implied of race there. You are just trying to make something out of nothing.

[Guest DrTom]

Mike has been calling the Palestianians and other Middle Eastern terrorist groups "subhuman monkeys" for a while now. If you're going to try and slap a label on it, you might want to catch the train before it leaves the yard. I've never found it racist in the slightest: it's a direct attack on their glaring lack of moral fiber and nothing more. Other contexts you may have heard somewhere else don't matter here.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

It doesn't matter if he slapped the "terrorists" qualifier onto that statement. It's still reeks of racism.

 

And I used to hear the term "sub-human monkey" a lot. Where I'm from, it's the nice way to say "nigger". So excuse me if the term doesnt have any positive connotations to me.

He is merely pointing out the characterization, the accusation of racism wouldn't apply. But hinging an entire argument upon the characterization or stereotype is indeed racist.

 

Do keep in mind that the only person I've asserted of exhibiting racist behavior in this thread is Marney. Her case is more based in cultural prejudice than outright racism, so I probably should've avoided the use of the meme there.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Cancer_Marney:

Glorifying death is defined as rejoicing in the murder of 4 year-old children, unarmed civilians, and other innocents. The Israeli armed forces apologise, investigate, and punish such murderers. The Palestinians call them "heroes" and "martyrs."

 

Yes? And in the 9/11 tragedy, we called the people who die protecting others "heroes."

 

Of course, if the kid was indeed shooting back and drawing fire on purpose (which we don't know) then your accusation is warranted.

 

But if he wasn't, and he was indeed saving children, then the woman was right in calling him a hero and a martyr regardless what others in her culture consider "heroes" and "martyrs" because that's exactly what he was.

 

No, in precisely the same words I used earlier, I'm going to SUSPEND JUDGEMENT and WAIT FOR THE FACTS.

Let me know if you're still confused.

 

Of course I'm confused. It seemed as though you'd passed judgement earlier in the thread with this post:

 

To the sniper:

 

Well done. The world needs fewer and better of these miserable "human shields." So he was protecting children... in order to save them for their parents to use as suicide bombers. La de frickin' da.

 

At least the families aren't getting $25k a head from Iraq anymore.

 

Of course, I personally think it was just a really insensitive and racist joke. But then:

he died in the middle of a de facto war zone as a direct result of his attempt to give aid and succour to avowed enemies of humanity and civilization. If he wanted to make a difference maybe he should have tried to change the sick culture of death that mires the "Palestinians" in their intoxicating, facile misery and incarcerates the Israelis in fear, loss, and grief. Instead, this "human shield" opted for the melodramatic and ineffective route of instant gratification and self-glorification. Now he's dead.

 

Spare me the shocked horror. Palestinians think it's funny to take pictures of their own infants dressed up in combat gear with miniature sticks of dynamite wrapped around their chests.

 

If you've decided to rescind your previous judgements, then I'm happy that you've arrived at this. However, if you've currently decided to withhold judgement, you probably should've made that a little clearer that you cannot currently be held accountable for your previous remarks.

 

I wasn't attacking a straw man or setting one up; I was simply following the line of reasoning of other people in this thread - posts which you took it on yourself to respond to - whose reasoning you don't seem to share.

 

No one in this thread ever claimed that his jacket would make him immune to gunfire, just that soldiers shouldn't be shooting at civillians. Your statement was a strawman; a misrepresentation or distortion of other people's statements to more easily attack them.

 

Fair enough. In that case, you should make your own views clear at the beginning, rather than indulging in invective right off the bat and then claiming you were misunderstood.

 

It would probably help if I knew what the heck you were responding to with this line.

 

If you're talking about me laying all my cards on the table beforehand, that's still no excuse for making misrepresentations or false assumptions of others opinions. That's just plain rude. If you want to know how I stand on something, you need only ask me for my opinion, not automatically assume that I view things a certain way based on your own prejudices about me.

 

Some posts clearly implied that Hurndall was just a random selfless passer-by with no interest in the genocidal plans of the Palestinians. That was clearly not the case.

 

I thought you claimed you were withholding judgement. Anyway, if this was clearly not the case, then how so? Much of the reporting seems indicate him as being a peaceful protestor, with even some favorable sympathies for Israeli intervention in Palestine. If he had an interest in the "genocidal plans of the Palestinians" then how do you presume to clearly know this?

[Guest EricMM]

No one in this thread ever claimed that his jacket would make him immune to gunfire, just that soldiers shouldn't be shooting at civillians.

 

How in the bloody blue hell are the Israelis supposed to tell who's a civilian and who's about to throw a grenade at them?

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Blame the sub-human monkey terrorists.

        -=Mike

Hooray.

 

Racism.

The moment you intentionally kill innocents to further your agenda, you cease being human.

 

If you wish to say it's a problem for only one race in the world, well, we get a better view of your biases than any of us care to know.

 

Projecting your beliefs on others is not healthy, to let ya know.

-=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

When your targets INTENTIONALLY disguise themselves as civilians --- you don't have the TIME to ask "friend or foe"?

Yes, because SO many civilians wear BRIGHT ORANGE VESTS. And so do the people trying to slip into the Israeli society. I mean, that doesn't draw attention to themselves at any way at all.

 

 

And I'll be back for Marney's post later, I have a weekend to enjoy before I agonize on a debate forum.

Gee, and they wouldn't pretend to surrender, either, to kill people, huh?

 

And they wouldn't consider planting SECONDARY bombs to kill rescue workers, huh?

 

Guess what --- there is no depth that they will not go to.

 

If you intentionally go to a war zone, don't bitch if you get killed.

 

That's why they're called WAR zones.

-=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Blame the sub-human monkey terrorists.

         -=Mike

Hooray.

 

Racism.

Hooray.

 

Someone who didn't read the post fully.

It doesn't matter if he slapped the "terrorists" qualifier onto that statement. It's still reeks of racism.

 

And I used to hear the term "sub-human monkey" a lot. Where I'm from, it's the nice way to say "nigger". So excuse me if the term doesnt have any positive connotations to me.

It's not SUPPOSED to have positive connotations.

 

People who intentionally target innocent civilians to advance their agenda are sub-human little monkeys.

 

Just because you have some deep-seated racism doesn't mean the rest of us do.

-=Mike

[Guest evenflowDDT]

I doubt this is going to change anyone's mind, but here's an account from The International Solidarity Movement, the human shield organization that Tom Hurndall worked for. Emphasis added to counter the "how were they supposed to know he wasn't a terrorist" argument. Also, a press release from the site states that as he was shot, Hurndall and the girls were leaving the area (not something your average suicide bomber does).

 

Tom ’s Rafah Group on the Shooting of Tom

Gaza

Rafah ISM

12 Apr 03

 

 

 

On 11 April 2003, 10 members of the International Solidarity Movement in Rafah, Gaza Strip, Palestine, were planning to set up a tent in an area that an Israeli tank often uses to shoot into the houses and streets of a refugee camp called Yibna. Several Palestinian community members had initiated the project, gathered the supplies, and accompanied us to the area at around 4:30PM. When we arrived to the area, the tank was already there and had been shooting into the street. A nearby Israeli security tower had also joined in and was firing repeated, single, sniper shots.

An American international was accompanied by two Palestinians to go closer and get a better look at the area, and was wearing our trademarked fluorescent orange jacket with reflective stripes. The tank and tower fired live rounds at the ground and buildings on both sides of her, making her movement difficult. She quickly returned to the rest of the group, that was positioned behind a large roadblock, but in view of the security tower. We made a consensus decision to call off the action, and return the next day as the Palestinians were uncomfortable with the gunfire.

 

At about 4:45PM, Shots began to hit the buildings and street around us, and we became concerned for some children who were playing on the roadblock near us. Many had scattered, but a few were left. Thomas Hurndall, a 21 year old activist from London, UK noticed that one small boy was still on the mound and under fire. He quickly lifted the boy and moved him behind the roadblock. Tom was about to leave, when he noticed two small girls still in front of the roadblock and in the line of fire.

He was moving to help them when an Israeli soldier in the tower, about 300 meters in front of him shot a high calibre sniper bullet directly into his head. He was wearing an orange fluorescent jacket with reflective stripes, and was in full body view of the tower. The British Embassy had been informed of his presence, who had in turn informed the Israeli Military.

 

Palestinians lifted his body and moved him to the pavement about 5 meters behind the roadblock. Two trained medics administered first-responder medical treatment, and used safety pads to try and stop the bleeding.

Palestinians then lifted him into a nearby taxi and rushed him to Al N ’gar Hospital. On the way, they took care to try and stop the bleeding.

 

At around 5:15PM, he was transferred in an ambulance to Europa Hospital in Khanunis. It takes about 30 minutes for an ambulance to get there as there is an Israeli road block on the main road. Without this obstruction it would only take 7 minutes.

 

After much negotiation with the British Embassy and the Israeli military, Tom was taken to a nearby Israeli settlement from which he was taken by helicopter to Saroka Hospital in B ’er Sheva, Israel. He is currently on full life support and in a head cast. Several of his friends have joined his bedside, and his parents are on the way.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

The guys still alive.Didn't know that.

 

 

Like I've said before. I'll wait until both sides of the story come out.

[Guest B-X]

Blame the sub-human monkey terrorists.

         -=Mike

Hooray.

 

Racism.

The moment you intentionally kill innocents to further your agenda, you cease being human.

 

If you wish to say it's a problem for only one race in the world, well, we get a better view of your biases than any of us care to know.

 

Projecting your beliefs on others is not healthy, to let ya know.

-=Mike

BWHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

 

So now I'm the racist?

 

I might actually be offended if that wasn't the most stupendous leap of logic that I've ever seen in my nineteen years on Earth.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Blame the sub-human monkey terrorists.

         -=Mike

Hooray.

 

Racism.

The moment you intentionally kill innocents to further your agenda, you cease being human.

 

If you wish to say it's a problem for only one race in the world, well, we get a better view of your biases than any of us care to know.

 

Projecting your beliefs on others is not healthy, to let ya know.

-=Mike

BWHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

 

So now I'm the racist?

 

I might actually be offended if that wasn't the most stupendous leap of logic that I've ever seen in my nineteen years on Earth.

YOU were the one who assumed racial undertones. Nobody else has EVER mentioned it.

 

But, you're 19. At a point, maturity will hit. You're just not there.

-=Mike

[Guest Renegade]

I think someone should move this to NHB now.

[Guest B-X]

Blame the sub-human monkey terrorists.

         -=Mike

Hooray.

 

Racism.

The moment you intentionally kill innocents to further your agenda, you cease being human.

 

If you wish to say it's a problem for only one race in the world, well, we get a better view of your biases than any of us care to know.

 

Projecting your beliefs on others is not healthy, to let ya know.

-=Mike

BWHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

 

So now I'm the racist?

 

I might actually be offended if that wasn't the most stupendous leap of logic that I've ever seen in my nineteen years on Earth.

YOU were the one who assumed racial undertones. Nobody else has EVER mentioned it.

 

But, you're 19. At a point, maturity will hit. You're just not there.

-=Mike

Give it up. You're just grasping for non-existent straws now.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Mike always grasps for straws, that's nothing new.

[Guest Edwin MacPhisto]

::drinks out of a straw::

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Whatever, Adolf.

-=Mike

[Guest evenflowDDT]

Whatever, Adolf.

-=Mike

?

 

Whomever you're referring to, that's as inaccurate as the left-wing extremists who compare Bush to Hitler. And even more absurd.