How good was/is Ultimo Dragon

[Guest cynicalprofit]

I know he trained CIMA and company, but how good was he in the ring, I've only seen like 3 WCW matches he did and they were all pretty decent, but nothing amazing.

[Guest razazteca]

If you can find some of his comeback matches from 2002 Mexico where he worked with Vampiro. Very good fast paced lucha style with some submission work.

 

He can run the ropes faster than Rey Misterio, kick as hard as Tajiri or pull a counter submission out of his ass like Beniot & Angle or just fly like a classic luchadore.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

If you're looking for his best WCW work, his WW III match against Rey Mysterio Jr. would be the one to check out. Excellent match there.

 

From what I've seen, Ultimo could be pretty nutty in the ring, having some spot fu matches with guys like Sasuke and Jericho. However, when put in the ring with guys like Lyger and Ohtani, he was willing to work with them and turned out some great performances, the best of which is 8/5/96 Ohtani/Ultimo that is one of the best juniors matches of the ninties. Definitely check this one out.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Dragon is always solid.

 

8/4/96 v Otani (Classic)

11/24/96 v Rey Misterio Jr.

 

Once you get past those 2 matches, you kind of end up in the *** range, though usually never really too much below that but never higher.

 

Tim

[Guest gansobomber]

oops!

Edited April 27, 2003 by gansobomber

[Guest gansobomber]

oops again! damn dialup!

Edited April 27, 2003 by gansobomber

[Guest gansobomber]

Forgive me for butting in, but what is so great about Ultimo/Rey in WW III? I really don't understand the praise the match gets. I've watched it a number of times and it is a horrible, HORRIBLE match. It was more of a glorified squash for Ultimo. I was disgusted by Rey's selling inconsistencies and Ultimo having to throw almost every move he knew into the mix to counter that. On top of that Ultimo had to sell Rey's rollup specific offense like he was doing power moves or suplexes. Rey did a much better job against Eddy at Halloween Havoc selling like a champ and actually contributing to the match's story. Here, he just no sells finisher after finisher to bust out the highspots. A really disappointing match if you ask me.

 

But coming back to the topic, I find Ultimo a bit sloppy at times (See: Jericho), but his matches are ususally excellent. Check out his matches against Liger or Otani to see what he's capable of.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Forgive me for butting in, but what is so great about Ultimo/Rey in WW III? I really don't understand the praise the match gets. I've watched it a number of times and it is a horrible, HORRIBLE match. It was more of a glorified squash for Ultimo.

Ultimo winning cleanly doesn't make it a squash. Rey got plenty of offense, from what I remember.

 

I was disgusted by Rey's selling inconsistencies and Ultimo having to throw almost every move he knew into the mix to counter that.

 

If you mean inconsistent in that he sold like he was being tortured while in the holds and then ignored them on offense, that's standard Rey. Ultimo brought boat loads of offense, but Rey sold all of it well, at least while on defense.

 

On top of that Ultimo had to sell Rey's rollup specific offense like he was doing power moves or suplexes.

 

Rey's ranas were generally put over pretty well and bought as credible offense, I think. His dives and tricky spots were all effective as well, so I don't think Ultimo was overselling any of it.

 

Rey did a much better job against Eddy at Halloween Havoc selling like a champ and actually contributing to the match's story.

 

He was able to contribute against Ultimo, too, timing his come backs well, and putting over all of his offense.

 

Here, he just no sells finisher after finisher to bust out the highspots.

 

Which finishers was he no selling? If I remember the commentary correctly, they never said anything about Rey kicking out of one of the finishes Ultimo was using at the time.

[Guest gansobomber]

Ultimo winning cleanly doesn't make it a squash. Rey got plenty of offense, from what I remember.

 

I watched it again and NO Rey gets very less offense in.

 

Unless you count Rey's rollups etc as offense. Basically, Rey is never in control. So is he in the Havoc match, but in THERE he sells the damage and the submissions he was stretched with.

 

If you mean inconsistent in that he sold like he was being tortured while in the holds and then ignored them on offense, that's standard Rey. Ultimo brought boat loads of offense, but Rey sold all of it well, at least while on defense.

 

Yes, I meant that and more. But after taking a brainbuster, a fisherman's buster, a dragon suplex, a running lyger bomb, two tombstones (death in US) (one inside and one outside) and other assorted moves, I think I'd be much less jumpy and peppy. All you need to look at is the end where Ultimo is left selling Rey's elbow for a while as rey suddenly looks revitalised to pop the crowd. After watching what Rey is capable of in Havoc, this match dissapoints more than sucks. But it still sucks.

 

Rey's ranas were generally put over pretty well and bought as credible offense, I think. His dives and tricky spots were all effective as well, so I don't think Ultimo was overselling any of it.

 

But the ranas were more of hope spots that let the crowd know that Rey could still come back. And he never came back to dominate Ultimo for more than a minute. That was why I called it a squash. Again, compare it to the Havoc match. Regarding Ultimo selling, I only need to point to the embarassingly long sell of Rey's elbows outside and at the end. But that's not a major factor anyway.

 

He was able to contribute against Ultimo, too, timing his come backs well, and putting over all of his offense.

 

But he never CAME BACK to look like he could win. No impact offense = more hope spots.

 

Which finishers was he no selling? If I remember the commentary correctly, they never said anything about Rey kicking out of one of the finishes Ultimo was using at the time.

 

I don't know if you have just read the commentary, because watching the match gives a whole new perspective to the match. Putting this match at the level of the Havoc one, the one that could well be the greatest NA cruiserweight match ever, is just wrong.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

11/24/96 is a much better match than any of Rey's 1996 matches versus Malenko. Dragon does a great job of hitting his offense, letting Rey up for a spot or two, then bringing him back in before the match got out of control or lost momentum.

 

As for your selling issues, Juniors don't sell like Misawa/Kawada/Jumbo etc. No selling is one thing but if you are looking for limb damage to be sold or even body weakness to be sold, it just doesn't happen unless you are Otani or Samurai on 1/21/96.

 

"I don't know if you have just read the commentary, because watching the match gives a whole new perspective to the match. Putting this match at the level of the Havoc one, the one that could well be the greatest NA cruiserweight match ever, is just wrong."

 

Nah, the greatest North American Cruiserweight match ever took place on 3/16/96 in Tijuana with Rey and Juve.

 

Tim

[syxx2001 0]

tim is right, juniors dont sell in the us. and selling i mean "my leg hurts" for 15 minutes in the match. they might twitch for a few seconds, then a minute later they pull a springboard hurricane plancha out of their ass.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I watched it again and NO Rey gets very less offense in.

Rey was playing the underdog, just like he had against Malenko, just like he had against Psichosis. That doesn't mean he was getting squashed.

 

Unless you count Rey's rollups etc as offense. Basically, Rey is never in control. So is he in the Havoc match, but in THERE he sells the damage and the submissions he was stretched with.

 

He sold for Dragon's offense too. Like I said, Rey was never a guy who would sell long term damage in a match. He didn't against Guererro in '97, and he didn't against Ultimo. I fail to see how Rey's selling was different in either match. Rey sold when he was being worked over, but stopped the second he went on offense. Standard Rey there.

 

If you mean inconsistent in that he sold like he was being tortured while in the holds and then ignored them on offense, that's standard Rey. Ultimo brought boat loads of offense, but Rey sold all of it well, at least while on defense.

 

Yes, I meant that and more. But after taking a brainbuster, a fisherman's buster, a dragon suplex, a running lyger bomb, two tombstones (death in US) (one inside and one outside) and other assorted moves, I think I'd be much less jumpy and peppy.

 

Tomb stones are only death in the US if it's Undertaker or Kane doing them. In '96 WCW, the move was about as feared as a backdrop suplex. All of those other moves you listed were good for near falls, but not respected as finishers. Hell, I'm not sure Ultimo even had a finisher at that point in his WCW run.

 

Again, if you're going to complain about Rey not selling the damage of a match on offense, Havok is the same deal. He gets crushed by power bombs, sentons, back breakers, and still manages a back flip DDT out of no where. That's just the kind of worker Rey was/is.

 

All you need to look at is the end where Ultimo is left selling Rey's elbow for a while as rey suddenly looks revitalised to pop the crowd. After watching what Rey is capable of in Havoc, this match dissapoints more than sucks. But it still sucks.

 

Not sure what you mean "capable of." Was Rey selling long term in Havok? Has Rey ever sold long term?

 

But the ranas were more of hope spots that let the crowd know that Rey could still come back. And he never came back to dominate Ultimo for more than a minute. That was why I called it a squash.

 

Yes and they were very effective hope spots. The storyline of the match was Rey getting dominated by the far more versatile Ultimo while desperately trying to find opportunites to come back and catch him off guard. For what it was trying to accomplish, it was completely successfull and even if you want to call it a "squash" it was one of the better WCW matches of the '90's.

 

Again, compare it to the Havoc match. Regarding Ultimo selling, I only need to point to the embarassingly long sell of Rey's elbows outside and at the end. But that's not a major factor anyway.

 

I'm getting very conflicting statements from you. First the problem is Rey never being in control, and then Ultimo selling too much? What was so "embarising" about Ultimo putting Rey over as a threat? Eddy did the same thing when he sold big for all of Rey's hope spots.

 

But he never CAME BACK to look like he could win. No impact offense = more hope spots.

 

As you just stated, the offense he did get in was put over well by Ultimo. His hope spots had worked for him previously, so why shouldn't he try to use them on Ultimo?

 

Again, pointing to the Guererro match, Rey was never in full control there, either. He only won because Eddy tried too much and left Rey an oppening to hit a big counter. Just like pretty much every Rey match you'll find from '96/97, Rey spent most of the time being dominated and hitting big spots to try and come back.

 

Which finishers was he no selling? If I remember the commentary correctly, they never said anything about Rey kicking out of one of the finishes Ultimo was using at the time.

 

I don't know if you have just read the commentary, because watching the match gives a whole new perspective to the match.

 

I was talking about the commentary from the announcers, and I've seen the match. They never put over any of Ultimo's offense as being a "finisher" which was in response to your claim that Rey kicked out of "finisher after finisher" before going down. Unless the fans already know that the moves are capable of ending the match, or the announcers tell them, what makes those moves finishers?

 

Putting this match at the level of the Havoc one, the one that could well be the greatest NA cruiserweight match ever, is just wrong.

 

I don't see that many glarring differences between them. The biggest one is Eddy and Ultimo's attitues, with Eddy playing the rudo and Ultimo playing it cool, for the most part.

 

But it's easy to see the similarities, especially from the way Rey worked in both matches. His selling for the holds and moves was great at building sympathy, though he abandoned that once he went on offense. His offense came at the appropriate times and was put over well, keeping the fans behind him and pulling for an upset.

 

Both are excellent matches, and would rank in my top 5 for US juniors work.

[Guest Jubuki]

This is such a "Taue's Nodowa sucks" thread. Who gives a flying fuck if Rey wasn't hitting Dangerous Backdrops? His offense was over. People who'd been watching Rey since he'd come into the company bought him. He was going for the fuckin' killing blow when UD countered it into the slingshot Liger Bomb.

[Guest Downhome]

If you're looking for his best WCW work, his WW III match against Rey Mysterio Jr. would be the one to check out. Excellent match there.

Is that the one in which the ending had Ultimo go for a Powerbomb, then swing it around, bouce Rey Jr. off of the ropes, then swing back around for the sit-out powerbomb? That's one of my favorite moves ever, heh.

 

A few weeks ago, Jamie Knoble was wrestling Rey Jr. on Smackdown, and he put him in a powerbomb posistion. I turned to my cousin and said that I wish he'd do that Ultimo spot, and sure enough, Jamie did it, just out of the blue. I was so shocked, I couldn't believe it.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

That's the one, Downhome. I caught that spot in Rey/Noble, too.

 

Now if only WWE would steal something I enjoyed from WCW, twenty minute Cruiser matches on pay per view.

[Guest gansobomber]

But he DOES SELL THE DAMAGE LONG TERM IN HALLOWEEN HAVOK '97! Compare the times he goes for the west coast pop in both matches and Rey IS selling like hell in the Havok match. Thats my problem. When compared to the Havok match, this match is a let down.

 

But maybe you're right too, since Rey does always have just hope spots to bank on to, but in case he loses, the hope spots lose their meaning, that is, a person feels cheated. So shouldn't he have controlled the match atleast a bit to give a feeling of competition? I mean you see stuff like that only in glorified squashes. I still don't understand how this is a good match either since the Havok match is much better ,maybe it was beacuse of Rey's win, but still it WAS better.

[Guest Downhome]

That's the one, Downhome. I caught that spot in Rey/Noble, too.

 

Now if only WWE would steal something I enjoyed from WCW, twenty minute Cruiser matches on pay per view.

*Bada Bing*

 

The Crusierweight Division is one of the main reasons I miss WCW, and it saddens me to see WWE having no clue how to present the division at all. I mean, even as I sit here typing this...

 

...I see Rey Jr. vs The Big Show on PPV.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

It was actually guys like Rey, Ultimo and company that got me into wrestling in the first place, while WCW was the hot thing around.

 

Strangely enough, Dean Malenko was my favorite.

[Guest gansobomber]

...

 

OK I get it now...

 

[Guest Black Tiger]

How good would some of you say Ultimo vs Malenko from Starrcade is? I remember really liking it, but I haven't seen it since it was on PPV. I remember being quite disapointed by the re-match when Malenko regained the title.

[Guest TheHulkster]

How good would some of you say Ultimo vs Malenko from Starrcade is? I remember really liking it, but I haven't seen it since it was on PPV. I remember being quite disapointed by the re-match when Malenko regained the title.

It was good, but not as good as the match at the Clash of the Champions match a month later. I really enjoyed that match. Great work by both men and the crowd was electric. If you were disappointed by the Clash match, you would probably enjoy the Starrcade match less.