Goals of Communism (1963)

[Guest Olympic Slam]

From Newsmax.com

 

Communist Goals

Chuck Morse

Friday, May 9, 2003

 

On Jan. 10, 1963, Congressman Albert S. Herlong Jr. of Florida read a list of 45 Communist goals into the Congressional Record. The list was derived from researcher Cleon Skousen’s book “The Naked Communist.” These principles are well worth revisiting today in order to gain insights into the thinking and strategies of much of our so-called liberal elite.

 

1. U.S. should accept coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.

 

2. U.S. should be willing to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.

 

These encapsulate the Kennan Doctrine, which advocated for the "containment" of communism. Establishment figures supporting the amoral containment policy at least implicitly worked with the communists in scaring the wits out of the American people concerning atomic war.

 

President Ronald Reagan undid the doctrine when he took an aggressive stand against the Evil Empire by backing freedom fighters from around the world that were struggling against the left-wing communist jackboot. As a result, the Soviet Union and its satellites imploded, a considerable and unexpected setback to the international communist edifice.

 

3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament by the U.S. would be a demonstration of "moral strength."

 

The nuclear freeze advocates supported a freeze on American nuclear development only. Rarely were Soviet nukes or those of other nations mentioned in their self-righteous tirades. The same advocates now call for reducing American military might, claiming that there is something immoral about America preserving its military pre-eminence in the world.

 

4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.

 

Today, there are calls to end the embargo on the slave island of Cuba, there were complaints about the embargo against Iraq, and the U.S., not Saddam Hussein, was blamed for the suffering of the Iraqi people. Would they have advocated for free trade with Hitler and his National Socialist regime?

 

5. Extend long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.

 

6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.

 

Such aid and trade over decades contributed greatly to the left-wing communist liquidation of over 100 million people worldwide, according to the well-documented "Black Book of Communism."

 

This aid and trade marks a shameful chapter in American history. Without the aid and trade, the left-wing international communist behemoth would have imploded on its own rot a lot sooner and umpteen millions would have been saved from poverty, misery, starvation and death.

 

7. Grant recognition of Red China and admission of Red China to the U.N.

 

Not only did President Jimmy Carter fulfill this goal but he also betrayed America’s allies in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Iran, Afghanistan, Angola and elsewhere.

 

8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the Germany question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.

 

9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the U.S. has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.

 

10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.

 

11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces.

 

There are still American intellectuals, and elected members of Congress, who dream of an eventual one world government and who view the U.N., founded by communists such as Alger Hiss, the first secretary-general, as the instrument to bring this about.

 

World government was also the dream of Adolf Hitler and J.V. Stalin. World government was the dream of Osama bin Laden and the 9/11 hijackers.

 

12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.

 

13. Do away with loyalty oaths.

 

14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.

 

While the idea of banning any political party runs contrary to notions of American freedom and liberty, notions that are the exact opposite of those held by the left-wing communists themselves, nevertheless these goals sought to undermine the constitutional obligation of Congress to investigate subversion. The weakening of our government’s ability to conduct such investigations led to the attack of 9/11.

 

It is entirely proper and appropriate for our government to expect employees, paid by the American taxpayer, to take an oath of loyalty.

 

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the U.S.

 

In his book "Reagan’s War," Peter Schweizer demonstrates the astonishing degree to which communists and communist sympathizers have penetrated the Democratic Party. In his book, Schweizer writes about the presidential election of 1979.

 

16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions, by claiming their activities violate civil rights.

 

This strategy goes back to the founding of the American Civil Liberties Union by Fabian Socialists Roger Baldwin and John Dewey and Communists William Z. Foster and Elizabeth Gurley Flynn among others.

 

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for Socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

 

18. Gain control of all student newspapers.

 

19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations that are under Communist attack.

 

The success of these goals, from a communist perspective, is obvious. Is there any doubt this is so?

 

20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book review assignments, editorial writing, policy-making positions.

 

21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV & motion pictures.

 

22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all form of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings," substituting shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms.

 

23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. " Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."

 

24.Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

 

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio and TV.

 

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural and healthy."

 

This is the Gramscian agenda of the "long march through the institutions" spelled out explicitly: gradual takeover of the "means of communication" and then using those vehicles to debauch the culture and weaken the will of the individual to resist.

 

Today those few who still have the courage to advocate public morality are denounced and viciously attacked. Most Americans are entirely unwitting regarding the motives behind this agenda.

 

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch."

 

This has been largely accomplished through the communist infiltration of the National Council of Churches, Conservative and Reform Judaism, and the Catholic seminaries.

 

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the grounds that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state"

 

Replacing belief in the creator with belief in the earthly man-controlled State.

 

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

 

And replace our nation of "laws, not men" with royal decree emanating from appointed judges and executive orders. Replace elected officials with bureaucrats.

 

30. Discredit the American founding fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

 

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of "the big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

 

Obliterating the American past, with its antecedents in principles of freedom, liberty and private ownership is a major goal of the communists then and now.

 

32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture – education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.

 

Public ownership of the means of production, the core principle of totalitarianism.

 

33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.

 

34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

 

35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.

 

36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.

 

37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

 

Turn America into a socialist police state.

 

38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand or treat.

 

The Soviets used to send "social misfits" and those deemed politically incorrect to massive mental institutions called gulags. The Red Chinese call them lao gai. Hitler called them concentration camps.

 

39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose communist goals.

 

Psychiatry remains a bulwark of the communist agenda of fostering self-criticism and docility.

 

40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

 

Done! The sovereign family is the single most powerful obstacle to authoritarian control.

 

41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.

 

Outcome-based education, values clarification or whatever they’re calling it this year.

 

42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special interest groups should rise up and make a "united force" to solve economic, political or social problems.

 

This describes the dialectical fostering of group consciousness and conflict, which furthers the interests of authoritarianism.

 

43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.

 

The results of this successful campaign are increasingly obvious in the world today.

 

44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.

 

45. Repeal the Connally Reservation so the U.S. cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction over nations and individuals alike.

 

This would mark a complete subversion of our Constitution and an end to representative sovereign government as we know it, which is the whole idea.

 

See anything familiar? Discuss

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

"In his book, Schweizer writes about the presidential election of 1979."

 

I must have missed that one.

 

and I'm so sure the Communists just let the list come out.. uh huh.. yeah

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Did that thing just blame liberal subversives for 9/11? And how was Alger Hiss the first secretary-general of the United Nations? I'm also curious how a socialist police state is any worse than what we're developing into at the moment. This is a list made up based on the beliefs of a single congressman at the height of the Cold War, and peppered with anti-Red rhetoric, as well as stuff that's accepted today by both right and left that the author so carefully avoids commenting upon, like the stance on Homosexuals.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

EDIT: Nevermind. I'd probably be misintepreted anyway...

[Guest Vern Gagne]

I'm also curious how a socialist police state is any worse than what we're developing into at the moment.

What are we developing at this moment exactly? Something you don't like,that means it most be horrible.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

See the Homeland Security Act for what I mean. It's only the beginning, things will get worse.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

My comments are in bold:

 

1. U.S. should accept coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.

 

2. U.S. should be willing to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.

 

I'm not so sure about what these mean becuase they're not in Plain English, but I'm a fan of Mutually Assured Destruction; nobody firing their weapons as they'll get fired on themselves.

 

The problem is that some cultures will not properly comprehend M.A.D. and will instead taunt us to bring it on. See also: These Arab cultures that believe dying in war will bring them heavenly delights. This is why we as a world need to work to dissolve religious governments and instate religious democracies such as the U.S. (despite the Fundies' best attempts to take it over)

 

3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament by the U.S. would be a demonstration of "moral strength."

 

To the contrary, I fail to understand how having one of the biggest military budgets in the world would provide "moral strength." Nobody in their right mind wants a world filled with missiles and bombs and WMD. A nuclear-free world with no war is a fantasy, but I don't see how it's a particularly evil one.

 

Number 4-6s are bad ideas I object to in principal.

 

7. Grant recognition of Red China and admission of Red China to the U.N.

 

Well, that's the U.N.'s decision. People may agree/disagree with what they decide, but if we ever want the U.N. to work they need to have teeth (see also: security council resolutions, largely ignored by many countries such as Iraq and Israel) and make it's own decisions without being bullied by the larger powers in the group.

 

8 and 9 I have no comment, 10 is the same as above.

 

11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces.

 

This is a little extreme compared to what most people want today.

 

13. Do away with loyalty oaths.

 

Well I'd be in favor of that. Loyalty oaths were purely a psychological tool. The editorial below suggests that it is "appropriate" for taxpayer-paid employees to take loyalty oaths, and while I don't necessarily disagree with the nature of the statement, I fail to see what practical purpose loyalty oaths make in today's world. They take hours to conduct and the employees are not being productive in that time. Productivity is MY #1 concern among the employees I pay, whether as an owner of a business or a taxpayer.

 

The fact that the author tries to hold the current political left responsible for 9/11 is highly offensive and is given no factual backup.

 

No comment on 14-21.

 

22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all form of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings," substituting shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms.

 

And this was different than the conservatives at the time telling us that rock & roll was an evil devil's tool... How, exactly?

 

24.Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

 

Where is it the government's job to enforce morality to the public? We could be a nation of 80% Satan-worshippers and the government shouldn't care less as long as we don't kill anyone or steal someone's things or cheat on our taxes, etc.

 

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio and TV.

 

Last I checked, we still have broadcast standards except for channels you explicitly choose to pay for, and the media is still controlled by those it serves (i.e. radio stations not playing Dixie Chicks songs.) Democracy and Free Market is a beautiful thing, izznit?

 

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural and healthy."

 

I see no problem with homosexuality presented as acceptable as long as it is done properly and respectfuilly (in other words, don't teach 6 year olds about gay men.) I can think of a number of people who are various degress of right-wing, from near-centerist to very far right, who would agree with me on this. The only people who would 100% disagree with me are the batshit insane extreme rights that everyone else looks down on and tries to ignore. Welcome to society.

 

Today those few who still have the courage to advocate public morality are denounced and viciously attacked.

 

And this is different than the vicious attacks of those who "advocate public morality" how?

 

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch."

 

I don't see how this could possibly succeed since we've seen that it's easier to change someone's gender than it is to change their religion. And again, religion isn't always infallible: See the Mutually Assured Destruction stuff at the top.

 

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the grounds that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state"

 

I disagree with enforcing children to not pray if they choose to, but there's a huge difference between that and the current belief that everyone shouldn't have to pay to teach a belief system they may not agree with.

 

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

 

You mean like what John Ashcroft is doing with Patriot Acts I/II?

 

37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

 

This makes me laugh since Big Business has now taken control of the American government (see corporate lobbying, et al)

 

42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition

 

This seems to be the arguement of the NRA and the militias, though more harshly worded.

 

 

-----------

 

In short, as we have seen, trying to compare the Communist/USA stuff of the 60s to the left/right struggles of today is laughable at best, and backfires in your face at worst.

[Guest Powerplay]

Only a few disputes with Jobber here:

 

3. "Moral Strength" is determined by the people being paid by the military budgets rather than the budgets themselves, really. Of course we don't want a world like you describe, but the only way for peace is to have them even if we don't intend to use them (Nuclear weapons as deterents and our chemical and biological weapons being created only to find defenses against them). A world without war is a fantasy because there will always be people out there who will try to subvert other people through force. Sad fact, but a strong military is needed for peace.

 

13. No argument, just to mention that I think mandatory "Loyalty oathes" would be illegal under the Minersville School District v. Gobitis. Someone back me up here?

 

24. I'm guessing he's just not a fan of modern art . Neither am I, really, but I'm not gonna start saying it's evil or anything, just crap .

 

25. I hope you aren't saying that radios isn't a form of censorship or something. Boycotts are how you tell someone "Just shut up" or "Stop it". If they want to, let them.

 

26. *No-sells on principle. Not Jobber's, but the editorial's stance.*

 

29. Can someone really sum up what the hell the Patriot Acts do? I mean, everyone got worked up about some 200(0?) or so students getting caught with it because they were d/ling illegal software. I'm guessing that they were also selling it, which is illegal. Otherwise, why didn't they arrest the whole campus? I don't know a person at our college who doesn't d/l music or stuff and I'm at a relatively small one as well. But there's been enough bitching that there is more than that at stake here. Again, quick summary anyone besides "It takes away our rights"?

 

37. Meh, there are more lobbyists in the system than just Big Business. Every activist group out there has some lobbying power, but whatever.

 

42. I'm not sure how to interpret this, but I've never found a problem with NRA members. I know a lot of them, and they tend to be incredibly nice people. If you want to point out the small misbehaving extremist element, that would be like me bringing up the Black Panthers when talking about the NAACP or communists when talking about the democratic party. Militias... blah. I don't consider a bunch of guys running around their backyards a real threat to us. GIve them a few packs of beer and threat = gone .

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

29. Can someone really sum up what the hell the Patriot Acts do? I mean, everyone got worked up about some 200(0?) or so students getting caught with it because they were d/ling illegal software. I'm guessing that they were also selling it, which is illegal. Otherwise, why didn't they arrest the whole campus? I don't know a person at our college who doesn't d/l music or stuff and I'm at a relatively small one as well. But there's been enough bitching that there is more than that at stake here. Again, quick summary anyone besides "It takes away our rights"?

 

The Patriot Act, in large part, has to do with furthering the government's right to surveillance without a warrant and subverts our protection from illegal searches and siezures.

 

37. Meh, there are more lobbyists in the system than just Big Business. Every activist group out there has some lobbying power, but whatever.

 

From The State in Capitalist Society by Ralph Miliband, somewhere inbetween pages 131 and 157 (I read this excerpt from a textbook, forgive me)

 

What is wrong with pluralist-democratic theiry is not its insistance an on the fact of competition but its claim (very often its implicit assumption) that the major organised 'interests' in these societies, and notably capital and labour, compete on more or less equal terms, and that none of them is therefore able to achieve a decisive and permanant advantage in the process of competition. This is where ideology enters, and turns observation into myth. In previous chapters, it was shown that business, particularly large-scale business, did enjoy such an advantage inside the state system, by virtue of the composition and ideological inclinations of the state elite. In this chapter, we shall see that business enjoys a massive superiority outside the state system as well, in terms of the immensely stronger pressures which, as compared with labour and any other interest, it is able to excercise in the pursuit of its purposes.

 

He backs up his argument very well, and I'd suggest reading it (at least those pages) if you somehow believe that business is on equal footing as other interests.

[Guest Powerplay]

37. Meh, there are more lobbyists in the system than just Big Business. Every activist group out there has some lobbying power, but whatever.

 

From The State in Capitalist Society by Ralph Miliband, somewhere inbetween pages 131 and 157 (I read this excerpt from a textbook, forgive me)

 

What is wrong with pluralist-democratic theiry is not its insistance an on the fact of competition but its claim (very often its implicit assumption) that the major organised 'interests' in these societies, and notably capital and labour, compete on more or less equal terms, and that none of them is therefore able to achieve a decisive and permanant advantage in the process of competition. This is where ideology enters, and turns observation into myth. In previous chapters, it was shown that business, particularly large-scale business, did enjoy such an advantage inside the state system, by virtue of the composition and ideological inclinations of the state elite. In this chapter, we shall see that business enjoys a massive superiority outside the state system as well, in terms of the immensely stronger pressures which, as compared with labour and any other interest, it is able to excercise in the pursuit of its purposes.

 

He backs up his argument very well, and I'd suggest reading it (at least those pages) if you somehow believe that business is on equal footing as other interests.

Does he also consider the stigma towards voters by being supported by Big Business? There is such a thing. Plus Big Business doesn't have any moral support, like Pro-Life or Pro-Choice and other moral issues. Deep Moral issuses, imho, have trump card over Big B because of the effect taking a stance on such can have such a huge effect on ones constituency. But again, whatever. It's all opinion.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

I think the argument is more about the actual interests outside the electoral process, such as legislation.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Can someone really sum up what the hell the Patriot Acts do? I mean, everyone got worked up about some 200(0?) or so students getting caught with it because they were d/ling illegal software.

An example:

 

 

http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,...0,55838,00.html

 

A.J. Brown, a 20-year-old antiwar activist and computer major at Durham Technical Community College in North Carolina. Brown was questioned by the Secret Service after an anonymous tipster called the agency to denounce an anti-Bush poster hanging in her apartment. The poster depicts Bush holding a length of rope over a backdrop of figures hanging by their necks and criticizes the number of death row inmates who were executed during Bush's tenure as Texas governor.

 

Brown was getting ready for a Friday night date when two agents from the Raleigh office and a local police investigator showed up at her doorstep, saying they'd received a report that she had "anti-American" material in her apartment. They had no warrant, so she refused to grant them entry, but opened the door wide enough to let them view the poster, she said.

 

For 45 minutes, they tried to convince her to let them into her apartment, to check if she had any maps of Afghanistan or pro-Taliban material, she said.

 

"I kept saying no," Brown said. "Finally, I was like, 'I think the Taliban are assholes,' and they left a little later. At first I thought they were rounding up activists and incarcerating them; I was scared. After they'd gone, I didn't know whether to scream or laugh my head off."

 

For an official White House information page on the Patriot Act, click here

[Guest Powerplay]

Thank you Jobber and Tyler. That situation is indeed very disturbing and I'm certainly against any search and seizures without warrants outside the "moving crime scene" argument with traffic stops and very special situations (Don't ask me to define special, but sometimes in extraordinary circumstances I believe that an exception may be made).

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

They had no warrant

 

For 45 minutes, they tried to convince her to let them into her apartment, to check if she had any maps of Afghanistan or pro-Taliban material

Unfortunately for your argument, there was nothing illegal that took place in that case.

 

A warrant is not the be-all and end-all of search and seizure. If the gov. does not have a warrant or the warrant is invalid, there are 6 exceptions that allow a search anyway. One of them is Consent, which is what the SS wanted. They ultimately didn't get consent, and they did not search the apartment. No search, no violation of 4th amendment rights.

[Guest B-X]

No, the womans rights were not violated. That's not the issue however. The issue at hand is the fact that this woman was confronted by several government agents because she supoosedly had "anti-American material." As far as we know, the only thing this woman had was the poster mentioned above.

 

Yet, the presense of this poster prompted some asshole to call the feds, to report her. Who knows what this anoymous caller reported? For all we know, he/she could have just let fly with accusations.

 

Either way, having Secret Service agents show up at your house over a fucking anti-Bush poster is BULLSHIT. This whole thing reeks of an Orwellian-esque 1984.

[Guest Some Guy]

In that case, I don't ahev a problem with what the cops did, because knocking on someone's dor and asking to come in is legal. I do have a problem with why they went there, however. The girl had a stupid poster, but that doesn't make her a criminal. But this is probably 1 case out of several thousand.

 

I had to listen to a bunch of Vietnam War protesters in class last semester and one of them sadi that she and a few others plotted to blow up a military building of some sort but they didn't do it because the war ended too soon. In other words she was wiling to kill cokpletely innocent people in a building. After 9/11 she published an article about this in some Commie paper and a few weeks later Secret Service guys knocked on her door and asked her about it. She was outraged by this and the other protesters were too. I raised my hand and said said, "Now let me get this straight. You were going to blow up a building and most likely kill a few people 25 years ago, you admit it with pride, you wrote an article about it and you're suprised that a few cops showed up to check on you?"

 

She looked at me and was very confused and I continued.

 

"I think it is their obligation to check on you. We just had a massive terroist attack by an anti-American group, you are anti-American and were plotting a terrorist attack in war time and we are in a war again now."

 

She scoffed, a lot of the kids in class stopped taking her seriously. Nobody else seemed to think about it this way and that boggels my mind.

 

The point of this story is that there is usually more to it than meets the eye and just because some activists tell their side of the story and are full of righteous indignation doesn't make it accurate. Maybe the girl with the anti-Bush poster said that she was glad 9/11 happened and that she wished it would happen again or whatever.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Maybe the girl with the anti-Bush poster said that she was glad 9/11 happened and that she wished it would happen again or whatever.

And how is that so wrong that it deserves the FBI at your door?

 

Either way, this is spiraling out of control. My point was that through initiatives like this and other crazy plans like a national database to track every purchase made at any retailer ("John [Ashcroft] has a real passion for this project," Aldridge said. Am I suprised?) are being constructed all the time with the excuse given to the public that the government must invade our liberties more than they used to in order to fight "a new breed of enemy" or whatever the hell they're calling Two Guys & A Fertilizer Truck this week.

[Guest Some Guy]

I don't particularilly like the Patriot Act, I was just pointing out that in the example given there was most likely more to the story than a girl having a dumb ass poster. I assume she did something other than that to bring about suspision either that or she pissed someone off and they ratted her out.

[Guest Powerplay]

Either way, having Secret Service agents show up at your house over a fucking anti-Bush poster is BULLSHIT. This whole thing reeks of an Orwellian-esque 1984.

It most likely wasn't the Anti-Bush poster that they were tipped to, but something else. They were asking for Pro-Taliban propaganda and such, the tip PROBABLY involved her being a staunch Taliban loyalist or something and the Anti-Bush poster just gave them more reason to try and press themselves into the room. They are just doing their job by following tips. There isn't any OMGODZ ORWELAIN CONSPARICY~!()#$*$@#()*$ going on here.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

And how is that so wrong that it deserves the FBI at your door?

What is so wrong about the FBI coming to your door?

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

What is so wrong about the FBI coming to your door?

Saying that we had 9/11 coming to us or that we provoked it, while almost certainly wrong (and I say "almost certainly" only becamse some people will try debate to prove otherwise) and a complete 180 from what almost everyone else in the country believes, is no reason to prompt federal intervention.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

What is so wrong about the FBI coming to your door?

Saying that we had 9/11 coming to us or that we provoked it, while almost certainly wrong (and I say "almost certainly" only becamse some people will try debate to prove otherwise) and a complete 180 from what almost everyone else in the country believes, is no reason to prompt federal intervention.

What federal intervention?

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

What federal intervention?

Some Guy said:

The point of this story is that there is usually more to it than meets the eye and just because some activists tell their side of the story and are full of righteous indignation doesn't make it accurate.  Maybe the girl with the anti-Bush poster said that she was glad 9/11 happened and that she wished it would happen again or whatever.

 

Thus he implies that this bevhior deserves FBI agents at the door or something, trying to talk their way into her house without a warrant, running under the assumption that she even did such a thing.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

Thus he implies that this bevhior deserves FBI agents at the door or something.

An FBI agent at the door isn't federal intervention. They have to actually DO something.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Thus he implies that this bevhior deserves FBI agents at the door or something.

An FBI agent at the door isn't federal intervention. They have to actually DO something.

Perhaps I should say "investigation", then?

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

I'll agree when regular illegal searches start happening.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Maybe the girl with the anti-Bush poster said that she was glad 9/11 happened and that she wished it would happen again or whatever.

And how is that so wrong that it deserves the FBI at your door?

If you have to have that explained to you, you're a fucking retard. And an evil little shit to boot.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

If you have to have that explained to you, you're a fucking retard. And an evil little shit to boot.

Oh? There's a difference between a guy saying he's a terrorist and someone saying it's our own fault.

 

I wouldn't even agree with someone saying it's our fault or coming up with crazy conspiracy theories (Bush staging it to gain support, J-E-W-S, and all those other crackpot theories.) I'm just saying it's not illegal unless you express intent to do something about it yourself.

 

 

It's like flag burning. I don't like it, but I'll defend someone's right to do it as long as it remains constitutional to do so.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

I'm just saying it's not illegal unless you express intent to do something about it yourself.

That's fair enough. I read too much into your statement about SG's hypothetical. Or, rather, into the word you used - "wrong." I mean, it is wrong. Very wrong. Just not wrong in an illegal way.

 

But I almost wish it were.