How did it all get so bad so fast?

[Guest Banky]

I don't care WM 17 ruled. Austin/Rock was amazing. I'd say Survivor Series 2001 TRULY ushered in the days of crappiness. They had failed to make the invasion profitable, and after this PPV, they didn't have anything to build their company on.

 

The Brand extension furthered the crappiness into unparalleled waters.

 

The re-introduction of the WCW belt ruined everything the undisputed title meant.

 

Big Show holding the Smackdown title for a month officially put the company into a point of no return.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I actually read 2001 and replied as such

 

Cause wtf happened in Oct 2002 anyways?

 

Oh... Yeah...

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I think everyone is talking about the seeds rather than the trees Banky.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

I actually read 2001 and replied as such

 

But that STILL wasn't around the HHH/Steph stuff. HHH was out with his quad tear.

 

 

October 2001 was when The Alliance was spiraling out of control (the fact that the name "WCW" was phased out for "The Alliance" was a crime IMHO, ECW be damned), I couldn't watch PPV if I wanted to because WWF told DirecTV to eat a dick for taking such a huge chunk of the profit and came back weeping in Feburary and begging for their contribution to the buyrate, and Kurt Angle was given the Championship to capitalize on the 9/11-induced patriotism. Austin was in "WHAT" mode and it started ruining other people's promos.

 

 

That's when it all fell into shards for me.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

ACK! My dates are all messed up.. 2000!

 

Ok, I disagree with you. Again, seeds from the trees. What happened in 2001 was the outcome of what happened in 2000.

[Guest Banky]

I think everyone is talking about the seeds rather than the trees Banky.

OH! I didn't read all of the posts.

 

I'd say the lack of push to the Radicalz in 2000 foreshadowed their desire to stick with the main guys (Rock, Trips, Austin, Taker). All four guys, as a collective group, would have been over huge as a modern day 4 Horsemen.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

It's amazing how the quality of work quickly picked up after the Radicalz debuted.

[Guest razazteca]

I have to agree it was the Invasion and Steph screwing up the Y2J title reign.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Benoit alone increased the workrate by 475%!

 

[HurriShane 0]

I think things started to go downhill the ngiht after Wrestlemania X7, when for no real reason they teamed HHH & Austin up. Then, things got even worse when HHH tore his quad

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

It's amazing how the quality of work quickly picked up after the Radicalz debuted.

I agree. I hated 1998 and especially 1999 because the workrate was so shitty. Hell, my WWF MOTY for 1999 was Rock blasting Mick with a chair over and over. Things improved immensely when the Radicalz showed up. And it wasn't just them, the entire roster seemed to try harder after they jumped.

[Guest EN090]

I agree. I hated 1998 and especially 1999 because the workrate was so shitty. Hell, my WWF MOTY for 1999 was Rock blasting Mick with a chair over and over. Things improved immensely when the Radicalz showed up. And it wasn't just them, the entire roster seemed to try harder after they jumped.

 

The workrate did suck in 98 and 99 but the storylines were enough for me to enjoy the product. The wrestling was definitly better in 2000 but to call it a "creative resurgence," as Barron did, is ridiculous. The things I remember from 2000 is Triple H and The Rock feuding forever. An really shitty KOTR PPV, headline by Vince/Shane/HHH vs. Taker/Kane/Rock and with an undercard match of Patterson vs. Brisco in an Evening Gown Match. Kane/Undertaker feuding for the 50th time. The same formula, over and over, for Raw (start with an opening interview, all the main eventers come out to argue and they set up a main event). The buildup before a PPV was simply a slopped together tag match by taking two random feuds and sticking them together (Benoit is feuding with Jericho and Rock is feuding with Hunter so they stick Benoit/Hunter vs. Jericho/Rock out there. They did this like every week before a PPV). It was really boring and predictable. And the most important thing is that, with the exception of Kurt Angle, they failed to make any new main event superstars. And we're still seeing the results of that today.

[Guest nWoScorpion]

To me, WWF/E has never been truly AWESOME. When they had good storylines, work rate wasn't great. When they had good workers, storylines were stupid.

 

2000 seems to be praised, but I didn't like seeing HHH on my screen all the time THEN (I didn't mind when it was matches, but 20 minute promos of the McMcahon-Helmsley Fac-Geme was stupid)

 

Rock/HHH Headlined FOUR PPVs in a row (counting WM & KOTR)

 

No Austin.

 

Can someone explain HOW The Radicalz Split?

 

Who gave Stephanie the booknig job.

 

who thought Billy Gunn was worth the IC Title?

 

Did ANYONE besides me watch KOTR more than once and realize it did suck worse than thought.

 

and lets not forget seeing EVERY McMahon on RAW almost every week from February-April.

 

1999? Don't get me started.

 

1998? Liked it better than 2000, but some PPV's really sucked while most were mediocre.

 

 

Everyones favorite reason: 2001

 

The Invasion Angle? I liked it....until STEPHANIE MCMAHON was ECW owner. That just screwed it to hell. Not to mention HALF the "Alliance" were WWE flunkies with NOTHING to do.

 

Two Man Power Trip?! Is that like a shoot on their backstage egos or something?

 

Too much crap has happened in the last 4 years to pick ANYTHING that single handedly done the deed.

[Guest bob_barron]

I agree. I hated 1998 and especially 1999 because the workrate was so shitty. Hell, my WWF MOTY for 1999 was Rock blasting Mick with a chair over and over. Things improved immensely when the Radicalz showed up. And it wasn't just them, the entire roster seemed to try harder after they jumped.

 

The workrate did suck in 98 and 99 but the storylines were enough for me to enjoy the product. The wrestling was definitly better in 2000 but to call it a "creative resurgence," as Barron did, is ridiculous. The things I remember from 2000 is Triple H and The Rock feuding forever. An really shitty KOTR PPV, headline by Vince/Shane/HHH vs. Taker/Kane/Rock and with an undercard match of Patterson vs. Brisco in an Evening Gown Match. Kane/Undertaker feuding for the 50th time. The same formula, over and over, for Raw (start with an opening interview, all the main eventers come out to argue and they set up a main event). The buildup before a PPV was simply a slopped together tag match by taking two random feuds and sticking them together (Benoit is feuding with Jericho and Rock is feuding with Hunter so they stick Benoit/Hunter vs. Jericho/Rock out there. They did this like every week before a PPV). It was really boring and predictable. And the most important thing is that, with the exception of Kurt Angle, they failed to make any new main event superstars. And we're still seeing the results of that today.

One shitty PPV does not ruin a year. You forget all the fantastic PPVs they had that same year.

 

The Rock and HHH feuded forever because that's what the fans wanted. They tried to keep it fresh by adding a twist to the matches each time. When they realised the crowd was sick of it- they ended it.

 

Kane and Taker had a feud that lasted like two weeks.

 

It may have been the same formula- but it worked. Those tag matches before the PPV was smart booking- Why get cutsey with the booking when you can do Rock/Jericho v. HHH/Benoit- have a good match and build interest for the PPV.

 

Chris Jericho got a big rub the first half of the year even though his push stalled at the end of the year. Ditto Benoit.

 

I remember all the awesome PPVs, the **** matches, the rebirth of the tag division and people like Edge, Christian, Chris Jericho, Rikishi, Too Cool, Chris Benoit, Kurt Angle, The Dudleyz all becoming stars.

 

1999 was Austin Austin Austin. Yawn

[Guest bob_barron]

2000 seems to be praised, but I didn't like seeing HHH on my screen all the time THEN (I didn't mind when it was matches, but 20 minute promos of the McMcahon-Helmsley Fac-Geme was stupid)

 

Rock/HHH Headlined FOUR PPVs in a row (counting WM & KOTR)

 

The matches were great, the heat was off the chart and the money was rolling in. Why is that a bad thing?

 

No Austin.

 

Why is that a bad thing?

 

Can someone explain HOW The Radicalz Split?

 

Eddy hooked up with Chyna which pissed the other three off. Dean decided to become James Bond, Benoit became associated with the Facgime and Saturn went on his own.

 

 

who thought Billy Gunn was worth the IC Title?

 

They realised the mistake and had Benoit beat him like a bitch.

 

Did ANYONE besides me watch KOTR more than once and realize it did suck worse than thought.

 

JESUS CHRIST! They had ONE bad PPV and everyone jumps all over them.

 

Do you forget Backlash, RR, No Way Out, Judgement Day, Summerslam, Fully Loaded??

 

 

and lets not forget seeing EVERY McMahon on RAW almost every week from February-April.

 

They were being used to further the HHH v. Rock feud and get the faces over.

[Guest William E]

IMO the product went down soon as Vince bought WCW. Everybody expected big things to happen with crazy inter-promotional matches and new storylines but not a damn thing happened. Vince shitted on WCW and ECW wrestlers, started the stupid trend of rehashing old angle with new faces, started the Kiss My Ass Club that many people want to forget, and other garbage.

[Guest EN090]

One shitty PPV does not ruin a year. You forget all the fantastic PPVs they had that same year

 

Never said it ruined the entire year. The boring and predictable formula is what ruined it.

 

The Rock and HHH feuded forever because that's what the fans wanted. They tried to keep it fresh by adding a twist to the matches each time. When they realised the crowd was sick of it- they ended it.

 

They ended it way after the fans started complaining and made way for something that never even got finished..the HHH/Steph/Angle love triangle. Followed by the debacle that was Steve Austin's return.

 

Kane and Taker had a feud that lasted like two weeks.

 

Proving my point that 2000 relied on short-term, slopped-together booking.

 

It may have been the same formula- but it worked.

 

That's what Eric Bischoff kept saying about the nWo. Look where that ended up.

 

Those tag matches before the PPV was smart booking- Why get cutsey with the booking when you can do Rock/Jericho v. HHH/Benoit- have a good match and build interest for the PPV.

 

Slopping a match together for absolutely no reason with absolutely no buildup is not building interest for a PPV...it's lazy booking. It came to the point where the week before a PPV, if Jericho and Hunter were fueding, we could predict exactly what would happen. It would be something like Jericho/Dudleyz vs. Hunter/team feuding with Dudleyz with the guy that was supposed to get the win at the PPV doing the job. Sure it gave us a great match but did absolutely nothing for interest of the PPV.

 

Chris Jericho got a big rub the first half of the year even though his push stalled at the end of the year. Ditto Benoit.

 

Exactly...so, like I said, with the exception of Angle they didn't build any new main event superstars.

 

1999 was Austin Austin Austin. Yawn

 

Obviously your memory is a little clouded because in 1999 there was tons of character development and other stuff besides just Austin. The awesome Rock/Mick Foley feud. The Kane/X-Pac David/Goliath partnership. The handling of the HHH heel turn at WM. Jericho's awesome debut. The Corporate Minitry, which I know you'll bash, even though they recieved the highest Raw rating ever in the middle of that storyline.

 

I remember all the awesome PPVs, the **** matches, the rebirth of the tag division and people like Edge, Christian, Chris Jericho, Rikishi, Too Cool, Chris Benoit, Kurt Angle, The Dudleyz all becoming stars.

 

Jericho looked a lot more like a star in 1999, when he first debuted, than in 2000 when he was already being jobbed out to HHH.

 

In 1999 we had great character development of guys like X-Pac, Kane, HHH, Shane McMahon, Test, Jarrett, etc.

 

One thing that really stands out for me in 2000 is where they put the bullet in the head of the Kane character and basically tossed him out the back door.

[Guest bob_barron]

That's what Eric Bischoff kept saying about the nWo. Look where that ended up. And look where WWE is right now.

 

The nWo angle ran for two years. The WWF ended HHH v. Rock right after KOTR- when they knew it was over.

 

Slopping a match together for absolutely no reason with absolutely no buildup is not building interest for a PPV...it's lazy booking. It came to the point where the week before a PPV, if Jericho and Hunter were fueding, we could predict exactly what would happen. It would be something like Jericho/Dudleyz vs. Hunter/team feuding with Dudleyz with the guy that was supposed to get the win at the PPV doing the job. Sure it gave us a great match but did absolutely nothing for interest of the PPV.

 

It was a good way for the fans to get interested in seeing both guys fight at the show. It obviously worked looking at the buyrates for 2000.

 

 

Exactly...so, like I said, with the exception of Angle they didn't build any new main event superstars.

 

One could also say that they also built Rikishi up- even though it failed. They also established a lot of new faces in the midcard which made RAW and SD! a lot better.

 

 

 

 

Obviously your memory is a little clouded because in 1999 there was tons of character development and other stuff besides just Austin. The awesome Rock/Mick Foley feud. The Kane/X-Pac David/Goliath partnership. The handling of the HHH heel turn at WM. Jericho's awesome debut. The Corporate Minitry, which I know you'll bash, even though they recieved the highest Raw rating ever in the middle of that storyline.

 

Rock v. Foley began in 1998. XPac-Kane has been done a million times before and dragged on forever. HHH's heel turn was cool- I'll give you that. The Corporate Ministry may have done well in the ratings but I did not like it. So you were right. But in 1999 the focus was mainly on Stone Cold Steve Austin.

 

 

Jericho looked more like a lot more like a star in 1999, when he first debuted, than in 2000 when he was already being jobbed out to HHH.

 

He didn't do much of anything in 1999 except feud with Chyna. In 2000 he was in main event angles and in the main events of many RAWs and SD!.

 

In 1999 we had great character development of guys like X-Pac, Kane, HHH, Shane McMahon, Test, Jarrett, etc.

 

Beating woman is not a great character development. Neither is turning heel and hitting people with sledgehammers. Test's horrible acting killed any of his character development.

 

One thing that really stands out for me in 2000 is where they put the bullet in the head of the Kane character and basically tossed him out the back door.

 

How did they kill Kane? They gave him a push as a face and then a push as a heel? Kane has flopped at every push he's recieved

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

The Invasion/"Alliance angle" (ugh) post-Unforgiven was the beginning of it for me. It clearly showed that Vince and co. either had no idea how to create a big storyline without having to resort to McMahon-o-mania, or they were doing it on purpose to show over and over again how "WWF #1, all others hack-ptu!" which was unbelievably egocentric and arrogant, considering what could have been. November 2001 had some of the worst shows I've ever witnessed. Since then they have yet to redeem themselves - in practically every way.

[Guest EN090]

The nWo angle ran for two years. The WWF ended HHH v. Rock right after KOTR- when they knew it was over.

 

Not just Rock/HHH. The entire formula they used for booking of the TV shows in 2000...lame and boring.

 

It was a good way for the fans to get interested in seeing both guys fight at the show. It obviously worked looking at the buyrates for 2000

 

Not when its done a million times and is the standard and predictable build up for any main event match. It's called lazy booking.

 

The average buyrates for the first nine PPV's were a tad in 2000 than in 1999 but then they started to drop off and have been dropping ever since.I think a reason for the higher buyrates in 2000 might have been because of the bringing in of ECW and WCW talent.

 

One could also say that they also built Rikishi up- even though it failed. They also established a lot of new faces in the midcard which made RAW and SD! a lot better.

 

So, like I've been saying, they didn't build any new superstars in 2000 besides Kurt Angle.

 

Rock v. Foley began in 1998. XPac-Kane has been done a million times before and dragged on forever. HHH's heel turn was cool- I'll give you that. The Corporate Ministry may have done well in the ratings but I did not like it. So you were right. But in 1999 the focus was mainly on Stone Cold Steve Austin.

 

Rock/Foley began at the 1998 Survivor Series, and lasted through Feb of 99. LONG-TERM booking...something that was unheard of in 2000. X-Pac/Kane was a tremendous story and I don't remember them being involved before that.

 

Beating woman is not a great character development. Neither is turning heel and hitting people with sledgehammers. Test's horrible acting killed any of his character development.

 

Writing a long-term story that saw Triple H turn on his best friend and morph into a psychopathic, sledgehammer-bashing heel is not great character develolpment? I suppose the Dudleyz putting women through tables is, though.

 

And Test's acting in the Stephanie/Shane story wasn't all bad.

 

He didn't do much of anything in 1999 except feud with Chyna. In 2000 he was in main event angles and in the main events of many RAWs and SD!.

 

I'm talking about his debut and the first couple weeks before Russo left. In fact, on the last show Russo wrote Jericho was booked to go over Rock but someone changed it.

 

 

How did they kill Kane? They gave him a push as a face and then a push as a heel? Kane has flopped at every push he's recieved

 

Kane didn't flop in when he first debuted or in 99. He was used to his full potential unlike in 2000 when they jobbed him out to anyone and everyone and stuck him in mid-card, no-name feuds instead of letting him be the monster he was made to be.

[Guest bob_barron]

Not just Rock/HHH. The entire formula they used for booking of the TV shows in 2000...lame and boring.

 

I found each show to be exciting and it always made me excited for the next SD! or RAW. I remember looking forward to RAW starting. Now...ugh.

 

Not when its done a million times and is the standard and predictable build up for any main event match. It's called lazy booking.

 

The average buyrates for the first nine PPV's were a little bit higher in 2000 than in 1999 but then they started to drop off and have been dropping ever since. I think a lot of that also has to do with the addition of lots of new talent from WCW and ECW.

 

You can call it lazy but it WORKED. The booking made sense. 2000 ended up being their most succesful financially I believe and it was because they gave the fans logical feuds. Sometimes being a little lazy and predictable works.

 

So, like I've been saying, they didn't build any new superstars in 2000 besides Kurt Angle.

 

I say Jericho became a superstar in 2000. Ditto Benoit.

 

Rock/Foley began at the 1998 Survivor Series, and last through Feb of 99. LONG-TERM booking...something that was unheard of in 2000. X-Pac/Kane was a tremendous story and I don't remember them being involved before that.

 

HHH v. Rock lasted for a long time, the three teams in the tag division also feuded all year. That's long term booking.

 

Writing a long-term story that saw Triple H turn on his best friend and morph into a psychopathic, sledgehammer-bashing heel is not great character develolpment? I suppose the Dudleyz putting women through tables is, though.

 

Triple H didn't get over. The Dudleyz did.

 

I'm talking about his debut and the first couple weeks before Russo left. In fact, on the last show Russo wrote Jericho was booked to go over Rock but someone changed it.

 

I don't see what putting Jericho over Rock on a TV show would've done but in 2000- Jericho did beat Rock in a match. All Jericho did was interrupt promos and talk about how the WWF sucked. In 2000 he had awesome feuds with a variety of people and got way over as a face.

 

Kane didn't flop in when he first debuted or in 99. He was used to his full potential unlike in 2000 when they jobbed him out to anyone and everyone and stuck him in mid-card, no-name feuds instead of letting him be the monster he was made to be.

 

Kane was protected when he first debuted and really only feuded with Taker which they ran into the ground. I don't get the love for the Kane-XPac storyline. It was way too predictable and didn't really help Kane out. Vince tried to get Kane over in 2000- he even put him over Jericho cleanly. It just wasn't meant to be

[Guest EN090]

I found each show to be exciting and it always made me excited for the next SD! or RAW. I remember looking forward to RAW starting. Now...ugh.

 

I, on the other hand, fell asleep during the shows.

 

 

You can call it lazy but it WORKED. The booking made sense. 2000 ended up being their most succesful financially I believe and it was because they gave the fans logical feuds. Sometimes being a little lazy and predictable works.

 

It didn't work because nine months in the fans were tuning out thanks to huge booking mistakes like Angle/HHH/Steph and Austins' return. They went public in 2000 so of course they'd be more successful, financially.

 

I say Jericho became a superstar in 2000. Ditto Benoit.

 

He got buried in 2000 just like he is now.

 

HHH v. Rock lasted for a long time, the three teams in the tag division also feuded all year. That's long term booking.

 

HHH/Rock was extremely boring while Foley/Rock was exciting and full of twists and turns. The three teams just had matches with each other with no real constant storyline for the whole year.

 

Triple H didn't get over. The Dudleyz did.

 

It took time for HHH to get over just like any new superstar. HHH was pushed as a #1 heel so of course it would take time.

 

Kane was protected when he first debuted and really only feuded with Taker which they ran into the ground. I don't get the love for the Kane-XPac storyline. It was way too predictable and didn't really help Kane out. Vince tried to get Kane over in 2000- he even put him over Jericho cleanly. It just wasn't meant to be

 

Don't have a clue in hell on how you find X-Pac/Kane predictable while a Raw from 2000 exciting and un-predictable. There was NOTHING predictable about X-Pac/Kane. Maybe you don't remember the storyline that well.

 

I don't see what putting Jericho over Rock on a TV show would've done but in 2000- Jericho did beat Rock in a match. All Jericho did was interrupt promos and talk about how the WWF sucked. In 2000 he had awesome feuds with a variety of people and got way over as a face.

 

Most of the feuds where he was jobbed out in. He had the feud with Shamrock in 99 and was extremely funny with Howard Finkle as his lackey.

[Guest bob_barron]

AHHHH! Fucking computer. It lost my response. I'll respond in the morning since I'm going to bed now

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Two Man Power Trip?! Is that like a shoot on their backstage egos or something?

No! It was because they held all the belts!

 

 

See, this is the problem. You guys have been smarks for so long you've forgotten things or just had your view of the past distorted.

[Guest edge007]

Unlike most of you, I found the year 2001 quite entertaining, with Royal Rumble, WM X7, Summerslam and No Mercy all being pretty damn good PPVs, in my opinion.

I do however agree, that inVasion sucked.

 

I think that part of the reason was the roster split, but not the roster split itself, just how they used it.

 

The WWE have used it pretty poorly, in my opinion. After all, wasn't the Roster Split created to get the smaller (Not over, in-experienced, whatever) guys TV-Time, and get them over?

Well, the fact is, the WWE hasn't done it all that much at all. Hurricane is a perfect example.

 

There's many more reasons, but that's all I got now....

[Guest bob_barron]

I, on the other hand, fell asleep during the shows.

 

2000 was the year that got me back into wrestling after 1999 and all that stupid Russo shit drove me away. Every RAW and SD! was something exciting.

 

It didn't work because nine months in the fans were tuning out thanks to huge booking mistakes like Angle/HHH/Steph and Austins' return. They went public in 2000 so of course they'd be more successful, financially.

 

I believe they went public in 1999- they switched to the NYSE in 2000.

 

He got buried in 2000 just like he is now.

 

Jericho wasn't really buried in 2000 IMO. In his three matches with Triple H- He won one and was made to look strong in the other two. He also got a lot of air time, mic time and was in many main event matches.

 

You act like in 2000 that Angle was the only one who became a star. What about Too Cool, Rikishi, The Dudleyz, Edge-n-Christian, Chris Benoit, Crash Holly.

 

HHH/Rock was extremely boring while Foley/Rock was exciting and full of twists and turns. The three teams just had matches with each other with no real constant storyline for the whole year.

 

Foley v. Rock saw the belt play hor potato to an extreme level. Triple H v. Rock was awesome. Each week you were getting an awesome match, the fans were rallying behind the Rock like crazy and they just HATED Triple H. Their PPV matches were instant classics and the feud had "twists" and "turns" like Austin and Taker coming back.

 

The 3-way tag feud was simply: Edge and Christian hold the tag titles but are extreme assholes who cheat too win. Hardyz and Dudleyz want the belts but it's an uphill climb.

 

It took time for HHH to get over just like any new superstar. HHH was pushed as a #1 heel so of course it would take time.

 

It took him 8 months and the guy went over the Rock repeatdly and got to beat up Austin and Foley too. That's a long time.

 

2000 saw Triple H go on the hot streak of a lifetime blowing his previous matches out of the water.

 

Don't have a clue in hell on how you find X-Pac/Kane predictable while a Raw from 2000 exciting and un-predictable. There was NOTHING predictable about X-Pac/Kane. Maybe you don't remember the storyline that well.

 

Because you knew XPac was going to turn on him. A RAW from 2000 actually had wrestling on it thus making it exciting. The crowds truly hated Triple H and loved The Rock and so seeing what they would do each week made for exciting TV.

 

Most of the feuds where he was jobbed out in. He had the feud with Shamrock in 99 and was extremely funny with Howard Finkle as his lackey.

 

That Shamrock feud had some blowoff eh? And Finkel has his lackey- that got him over. Who did he face again at No Mercy?

[Guest Adrian 3:16]

A lot of people look back on 2000 with rose-colored glasses, but there were already some chinks in the armor. A lot of the problems today can be directly traced back to that year...

 

- HHH, while still a good wrestler at the time, managed to bury Angle (sabotaging the hottest storyline at the time) and Jericho (some things never change). Hell, he even turned face just long enough to beat Benoit on PPV to have a big win over all 3 of the new breakout stars. Of course this is also around the time that Steph began her reign of terror as well.

 

- The shows lost that element of unpredictability they had from 97-99. Not just the tag matches before a PPV, little things that you wouldn't notice or care about alone, but together they start to add up: things like Rikishi and Too Cool's dancing, Right to Censor, Foley's cheap pops, all stuff that started out funny or entertaining enough but were just run into the ground over and over ad nauseum.

 

I'd say after Wrestlemania was the point that you could start missing shows and be able to correctly guess exactly what would happen every time: Some combination of HHH and or various McMahons would babble for a half hour, Rikishi would rub his ass in someone's face, Foley would say the town's name and stick his thumb out like a jackass, Jericho would fight the Dudleys in a handicap match, and Undertaker would continue his on-screen midlife crisis- every week. From January to that spring, the shows were can't miss, with the Radz debuting, Angle's shenanigans, Rock still being funny, the return of Cactus, etc. After a certain point, they lost the edge.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Bob, look at Jerichos status before his feud with HHH and after...

[Guest nWoScorpion]

Now that I'm jumping to 1999, how cna ANYONE like it that year? Sure, it had Austin, when he wasn't so stale, but seriously, I remember almost NOTHING from this year.

 

a.) I can't name half the matches on most PPV cards. INCLUDING the big 5.

 

b.) Um....long term storylines? I remember WAY too much X-pac/Kane...and that's it.

 

c.) TALENT?! Bossman vs. Mideon on PPV does NOT make me excited. Or how about Kennel from Hell. Hell in a Cell III. Hell, anything with Bossman, the Corporate Ministry, or the hardcore title.

 

d.) Main Event Stars. You had Austin & Rock on a consistant basis. UT & HHH made a few appearences but Rock i believe headlined half of them (i can think of 7). Ditto Austin until he was "ran over"

 

e.) austin being ran over. COME ON!

 

f.) Too many title changes. The IC Title changed hands every 3 weeks it seemed, and the world title changed hands about 11 or 12 times that year.

[Guest EN090]

2000 was the year that got me back into wrestling after 1999 and all that stupid Russo shit drove me away. Every RAW and SD! was something exciting.

 

Raw and Smackdown was predictable and boring.

 

2000 was the year that I really started getting sour on wrestling.

 

I believe they went public in 1999- they switched to the NYSE in 2000.

 

They went public at the very end of 1999. Had they went public at the beginning you would have had an argument but they didn't.

 

Jericho wasn't really buried in 2000 IMO. In his three matches with Triple H- He won one and was made to look strong in the other two. He also got a lot of air time, mic time and was in many main event matches.

 

You act like in 2000 that Angle was the only one who became a star. What about Too Cool, Rikishi, The Dudleyz, Edge-n-Christian, Chris Benoit, Crash Holly.

 

But the bottom line was that he was not made into a real superstar. The only superstar, on the level of Austin, Rock, Foley, etc, they were able to make was Kurt Angle. That's it. Look at where Benoit is right now - he didn't even wrestle on the next PPV.

 

Foley v. Rock saw the belt play hor potato to an extreme level.

 

Which is what made it really excited. Showed to guys willing to kill each other for the belt and had tons of twists and turns and different kinds of matches.

 

Triple H v. Rock was awesome. Each week you were getting an awesome match, the fans were rallying behind the Rock like crazy and they just HATED Triple H. Their PPV matches were instant classics and the feud had "twists" and "turns" like Austin and Taker coming back.

 

You were getting an awesome match but the storyline couldn't hold a candle to Foley/Rock. Taker coming back and attacking the McMahon-Helmsly regime for no reason made no sense.

 

 

The 3-way tag feud was simply: Edge and Christian hold the tag titles but are extreme assholes who cheat too win. Hardyz and Dudleyz want the belts but it's an uphill climb.

 

And that's exactly the type of thought that made 2000 so stale. It was the same shit over and over with no twists or turns at all.

 

It took him 8 months and the guy went over the Rock repeatdly and got to beat up Austin and Foley too. That's a long time.

 

2000 saw Triple H go on the hot streak of a lifetime blowing his previous matches out of the water.

 

I agree that Triple H hit a stride in 2000 AS A WRESTLER. But the way he was turned into a psychopathic heel in 1999 was tremendous.

 

Because you knew XPac was going to turn on him. A RAW from 2000 actually had wrestling on it thus making it exciting. The crowds truly hated Triple H and loved The Rock and so seeing what they would do each week made for exciting TV.

 

X-Pac turned at the end of 99 when the story started getting shitty. What I'm talking about is how Kane had to be in the Corporation because McMahon threatened to send him to the insane asylum if he were to walk away. X-Pac saw the "human being" in him and finally got him to leave the Corporation. They built it up to where X-Pac was trying to get Kane to be himself and in 8/9/99 Raw Pac finally got Kane to talk without the voice scrambler. Then X-Pac started doubting himself because of his size but Kane was there for him to get him back up. Tremendous storyline.

 

That Shamrock feud had some blowoff eh? And Finkel has his lackey- that got him over. Who did he face again at No Mercy?

 

Boy, and Jericho being made to look strong against HHH in 2000 really got him far. What was he doing a week before WM18 again? That's right, picking up dog shit. And what is he doing now? Being made to look like a loser just like in 2000.

 

A lot of people look back on 2000 with rose-colored glasses, but there were already some chinks in the armor. A lot of the problems today can be directly traced back to that year...

 

I knew I wasn't the only one who had that opinion.

 

I'd say after Wrestlemania was the point that you could start missing shows and be able to correctly guess exactly what would happen every time: Some combination of HHH and or various McMahons would babble for a half hour, Rikishi would rub his ass in someone's face, Foley would say the town's name and stick his thumb out like a jackass, Jericho would fight the Dudleys in a handicap match, and Undertaker would continue his on-screen midlife crisis- every week. From January to that spring, the shows were can't miss, with the Radz debuting, Angle's shenanigans, Rock still being funny, the return of Cactus, etc. After a certain point, they lost the edge.

 

Agree 100% with this. They had a string of great storylines and shows in the first three months of 2000 but after WM it started really going to shit.

 

Um....long term storylines? I remember WAY too much X-pac/Kane...and that's it.

 

Umm...Rock/Foley, X-Pac/Kane/ The entire Corporate Minsitry/Corporation deal that lasted through the Summer and earned them the highest Raw rating ever. A lot more long-term planning than in 2000.