Looking back at the radicalz

[Guest goodhelmet]

The possibility of Steph becoming champion made me think of all the stars who deserve a shot at the world title and I begian reminiscing about the hopes I had for the Radicalz in the WWF. Then I thought about how things turned out

 

Chris Benoit- entered and used to make talentless hacks look good at his expense. Given the title twice only to be stripped twice. Entered into a feud with Austin only to have surgery the next month. When he returns, will probably enter with little fanfare to illustrate how he is not at HHH's level.

 

Dean Malenko- Brought the WWF cruiser title respectability. Made to look like Lita's bitch. Put into some extremely weak dating vignettes. Used on Heat/Jakked/Metal extensively. Now in semi-retirement

 

Eddy Guerrero- Broke his arm in his first match in the WWF. Made into a stereotypical racist WWF gimmick. Made to be Chyna's love interest (Yuck). fired because of his drug and alcohol problems. Last seen in a trainwresck at the WWA PPV.

 

Saturn- received little heat from the fans. Given Terry as a manager but also made to dress like someone on a bad acid trip. Fell in love with a mop. Worked stiff with some developmental jobbers. works Jakked/Metal extensively. Still has no heat

 

Man, after writing this, I was even more depressed. The Radicalz really haven't achieved shit in the WWF. Some due to their own fault, others because of bad booking. Now, I'm wondering if it was such a great choice for them to have left WCW. At least there, they could have made WCW somewhat watchable. If the WWF bought WCW, then there contracts would have been probably picked up, strengthening the Invasion. This has been discussed before but what are your thoughts?

[Guest Luke Argyle]

A couple of days ago I saw the ECW Eddie vs. Malenko 30 minute draw from '95 and, as good as the match was, it just broke my fucking heart to see where these guys are today.  No, matter.  I'll always rememeber the good matches they pulled out of unexpected places durring their WWF tenure.  Matches like Scotty 2 Hotty vs. Malenko that were WAAAY better than they had any right to be.  We'll always have the 10 man in Austin, too.

[Guest goodhelmet]

I'm not saying there weren't good matches. In fact, they have brought us alot of good matches. Imagine if they would have given Benoit-eddy 20 minutes on a ppv. Or even Eddy-Dean. The way they were booked was horrible, save for maybe Benoit, but even he has been the product of shitty booking. He was a terrible face against Angle. He stole angle's medals and stuck them down his pants. Fucking stupid.

[Guest Luke Argyle]

Makes you wonder if them pulling the trigger on a Horseman angle would have helped.  I'd say no, because the stable, on its past merit alone, would not get over today.  One reason being that the fans don't know/care about the Horsemen and two because it wasn't so much who the Horsemen were, but what they did and they would never be booked correctly in today's environment.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

"Chris Benoit- entered and used to make talentless hacks look good at his expense. Given the title twice only to be stripped twice. Entered into a feud with Austin only to have surgery the next month. When he returns, will probably enter with little fanfare to illustrate how he is not at HHH's level."

 

Which talentless hacks would those be? Chris Jericho (whose ass he kicked multiple times)? Kurt Angle (who Benoit had a highly competitive feud with)? The Rock (who also got his ass kicked plenty of times by Benoit, and only barely won their title matches)? Steve Austin (they had 2 great matches where Austin escaped by the skin of his teeth)? The only bad worker he's feuded with is Billy Gunn, and he tore his ass apart at every oppotunity.

 

"Dean Malenko- Brought the WWF cruiser title respectability. Made to look like Lita's bitch. Put into some extremely weak dating vignettes. Used on Heat/Jakked/Metal extensively. Now in semi-retirement"

 

Malenko got sort a bad shake, I'll admit. His James Bond character was really over with the crowd and probably could have earned him a bigger push. On the other hand, he did hold the CW title for about 250 days, and it's not like 40 year old CWs are in high demand in the WWF either. He's nicely positioned himself with the WWF in his post-wrestling career.

 

"Eddy Guerrero- Broke his arm in his first match in the WWF. Made into a stereotypical racist WWF gimmick. Made to be Chyna's love interest (Yuck). fired because of his drug and alcohol problems. Last seen in a trainwresck at the WWA PPV."

 

In addition to being injured several times, Eddy has brought plenty of problems on himself. He really has no one else to blame for his lack of success.

 

"Saturn- received little heat from the fans. Given Terry as a manager but also made to dress like someone on a bad acid trip. Fell in love with a mop. Worked stiff with some developmental jobbers. works Jakked/Metal extensively. Still has no heat"

 

I think wearing a dress during most of his WCW run killed Saturn's heat off pretty well. It's not like he's ever been that high up the card other than in ECW perhaps.

 

"Man, after writing this, I was even more depressed. The Radicalz really haven't achieved shit in the WWF. Some due to their own fault, others because of bad booking. Now, I'm wondering if it was such a great choice for them to have left WCW. At least there, they could have made WCW somewhat watchable. If the WWF bought WCW, then there contracts would have been probably picked up, strengthening the Invasion. This has been discussed before but what are your thoughts?"

 

Hmmm, well let's see. They made a whole lot of money by jumping to the WWF and appearing on PPVs that do +1.0 buyrates rather than PPVs that do +0.1 buyrates. They jumped whatever pecking order was created by the purchase of WCW, and they also avoided the hostility caused by the much larger locker room. Not to mention, they came to the WWF is a much stronger position (big free agent pick ups) than WCW guys did (jobless castoffs). Personally, I think they've made out pretty well, especially Benoit who is the most overprotected net cause in wrestling history. He's main evented PPVs, made tons of money, NEVER been made to look particularly bad, and yet people still act like he's back in WCW jobbing to Meng.

[Guest goodhelmet]

"Which talentless hacks would those be? "

 

Billy Gunn, Kane, Taker, Big Show

 

 

 

"Eddy has brought plenty of problems on himself. He really has no one else to blame for his lack of success."

 

I admitted as much in the original post but it dosn't make it any less depressing. And I don't recall Eddy ever being stereotyped in WCW to the degree he was in the WWF. Other Mexican wrestlers maybe. But not Eddy.

 

 

"Personally, I think they've made out pretty well, especially Benoit who is the most overprotected net cause in wrestling history. He's main evented PPVs, made tons of money, NEVER been made to look particularly bad, and yet people still act like he's back in WCW jobbing to Meng."

 

Once again, Benoit has never actually WON one of those main event PPV's. rock? Nope? Austin? nope? Trips? Nope.

[Guest Some Guy]

Benoit was almost immediatley put into a see saw feud with Jericho, then onto the Rock, then to HHH, then to Angle, then to Austin, then with neck surgery.  Doesn't sound like "Talentless hacks" to me.  I'm not saying he was treated even clopse to perfectly, them not capitalizing on the intial huge babyface reaction to the Rads was very stupid and killed Benoit's heat until after Backlash 2000.

 

Eddy's "Latino Heat" got over and he got a run with the IC before getting sent to rehab and then screwing up again aftera couple of house show matches against Funaki (I saw the one in Lowell, MA on 11/3)

 

Saturn just couldn't get over.

 

Malenko was mistreated after Backlash 2000, period.

[Guest Some Guy]

"I admitted as much in the original post but it dosn't make it any less depressing. And I don't recall Eddy ever being stereotyped in WCW to the degree he was in the WWF. Other Mexican wrestlers maybe. But not Eddy."

 

LWO was pretty stereotypical IMO, just as much as "Latino Heat".

[Guest teke184]

In the case of Benoit, I think the "talentless hacks" in question are probably Rikishi and Billy Gunn.

 

Eddy's career, IMHO, has mostly been shaped by getting injured at exactly the wrong time and his substance abuse.  There's not really much you can do about either of those factors, though.

 

Saturn was... sorta just there more than anything.  While he is/was a good worker, he was signed to the WWF from WCW and to WCW from ECW purely as a method to screw with his former employers.  Neither federation had any real plans for them, although WCW ended up using him in an imitation-Taz gimmick because the Oompa Loompa refused to abandon ECW around the same time.

 

 

Just about the only thing I can say about the Radicalz as a whole is that they were screwed either way.  Kevin Sullivan was setting Benoit up for a fall and the other three wouldn't have done much more in WCW than they did in the WWF.

[Guest goodhelmet]

Ok, maybe I should rename this thread "Dean Malenko: he was screwed!!!" Seriously, it's depressing to think of the potential and where they are now:

 

Benoit:Injured

Malenko: Retired

Eddy: Fired

Saturn: Jakked!!!!

 

OK, you guys have made me feel a little better about the situation BUT I still maintain that the wrestling possibilities went largely undiscovered.

[Guest Luke Argyle]

Malenko was mistreated after Backlash 2000, period.

 

No doubt.  Who the fuck did he piss off?  He dragged S2H to a damn good mach which the crowd was seriously digging and then did NOTHING after that.

[Guest The Masked Yodeler]

He got over via wrestling.  That's a big no-no in the WWF today.  (See: RVD, Tajiri)

[Guest Tony149]

They should of stayed in WCW, IMO. They were pissed Russo was out and Sullivan was in. They could of all gone home and still get paid because WCW rarely did anything to guys who went home after some hot moments with the higher ups.

 

They also took a pay cut to go to the WWF. I belive they all made a helluva lot more money in WCW.

[Guest Some Guy]

He was also cursed with being only about 5'6".  In Vince's mind even a Cruiser has to be 6', I guess.

[Guest teke184]

Tony, that only worked if it was a big name like Hogan or Nash.  WCW had language in the contracts that allowed them to cut a wrestlers's pay after a certain number of consecutive days out, then either another cut or an outright release after enough consecutive days had accumulated.

 

WCW used this to get rid of Bret when he was sitting out and attempting to heal after Goldberg scrambled his brains, as well as using it to get rid of a healing Shane Douglas at one point.  The only "WCW guy" to have been cut from one of these contracts was Hall, AFAIK, as Hogan, Lugar, and Goldberg were among the guys who took a HUGE amount of time off but were never punished or fired.

[Guest Tony149]

Thats true teke, but I think WCW really wanted the Radicalz to stay. I think they would of let them cool off at home for a while, but gave in when WCW wanted Sullivan in charge, and knew the Radicalz wouldn't be happy with that.

[Guest]

I have to disagree slightly that the Radicalz got such a bad break... considering that this is the WWF we're talking about.

 

Chris Benoit-  He had gotten feuds with Austin, Rock, Jericho, Angle, all the top guys in his time.  Yeah, he never became World Champion... but he got to headline 2 PPV's, and was always in the upper-midcard range.  That's pretty damn good for someone who shows no personality, and has no mic skills... which are the most important things in the Sportz Entertainment era.  To be honest, I'm surprised Benoit was pushed as much as he was before he got injured... and there's little doubt Benoit will be right back where he was when he returns.

 

Dean Malenko-  Well, they gave him the LH title for a while, and had that good string of matches with Scott Taylor, but then he was forgotten.  Again, in the land of Sportz Entertainment, Malenko was death.. he can't talk at all.  Add to the fact, that Malenko is 40 years old, and Vince hates Cruiserweights.  He just didn't fit in.

 

Eddy had been pushed well, and put on many good matches.   He fucked himself in the end.

 

Saturn... yeah, he's been treated like shit, but again some of the blame is due to his stupid actions.. like the Mike Bell incident.  I feel Saturn can be used much better though... he has that look of a psychotic heel, and can work decent matches with anyone, due to his wide array of wrestling skills.

 

In the long run though, for the WWF's style, they have more talented people than the Radicalz.  It has nothing to do with who they "pissed off" or any bullshit backstage rumors that the smarks always assume are true.

[Guest Human Fly]

Maybe Benoit will come back and feud with Jericho to start with. I know it won't be for a title or anything like that, but he can't go for the title right away. If Benoit comes back and can't tear it up like he used to then it would be really depressing considering he never got a run at the top while he was at his peak.

 

Dean is a road agent now, and even though he didn't get a really good chance (or even a good chance) hopefully now he'll be the booker of the cruiserweight division.

 

I thought at one point that Eddie was on his way to the main event, but he got injured it seemed like every few months. Then his substance abuse problems. If the rumors are true and he is coming back I hope he can make it back up towards the top but I wonder if he'll be in the cruiserweight division for good now.

 

Saturn just hasn't gotten over very well since he's been in the WWF. He would be a good candidate to be paired with Paul Heyman. Saturn and Lesnar would make a brutal tag team.

[Guest Some Guy]

I really think that the mani reason Vince wanted the Rads was to screw WCW and to get Benoit so he could use him as enhancement talent for teh ME guys.  Rock's match quality and moveset increased greatly after his feud with Benoit.  Eddy getting over was a plus for Vince and paying Saturn and Malenko for nothing is ok for him.  Malenko could always do Tough Enough 3 an dSaturn could stiff the shit out of the winner.  The Avg. height of all 4 of them is about 5'8" or less Vince doesn't push anyone that short, other than Jericho lately.  Benoit unfortunatley will get the same treatment as before as ME JTTS, which is better than his WCW role of JTTmid-carders.  Unless Heymen and Flair really get depp into Vince's ear he unfortunatley isn't going to get the strap.

[Guest Mystery Eskimo]

The Avg. height of all 4 of them is about 5'8"

I think that's a little low, I'd say more like 5'10 or 5'11.

 

Anyway, nit-picking aside I think Eddy and Saturn probably havn't helped themselves. Benoit has been magnificent ever since he came in, and I havn't given up hope of seeing him as WWF champion, although if he ever was I suspect he would be a transitional one.

 

If he dosn't, he will go down as probably the greatest wrestler in the WWF never to win the WWF title.

[Guest Risk]

Rock should have tapped to the Crossface...ugh, the WWF really sucks right now.

[Guest Mystery Eskimo]

I wonder how Benoit would have done as WWF champ if either of his two "wins" had stood...

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

Benoit was better off coming over to the wwf, Eddy was doomed in either federation as he was a ticking time bomb. Saturn and Dean would have been better off staying with wcw or returning to eCw, were the federation would have been centered around them (although if they did that they woulddn't be rolling in $$$)

[Guest Some Guy]

Sadly Benoit would have gotten a Jericho style title reign only he woul dbe playing 2nd fiddle to Shane.

 

Eskimo I think I'm pretty close on the 5'8" avg.  Benoit 5'9", Eddy 5"8", Satuen 5'9", Malenko 5'7" are what I think there real heights are.  i don't really care that they are short, Benoit and Eddy wrestle big so and should be pushed accordingly IMO.

[Guest bob_barron]

a lot of people think Deano got screwed but he did have a very hot feud with Lita and ended up getting injured. Everytime he faced her he basically kicked her ass.

 

Apparently Dean is very happy as a road agent so things worked out well for him.

[Guest Brian]

You can bet Dean would rather still be wrestling.

[Guest goodhelmet]

OK, this thread should be killed.

 

Deano is a happy road agent (Yeah, but he was feuding with Lita for chrissakes! )

 

Benoit is returning

 

Eddy is returning

 

And Saturn is well... Saturn is still on Jakked

 

Ok, thank you Smarks for allowing me to see the err of my ways even though I think the Radicalz were saddled with ridiculous gimmicks and not allowed to truly excel at what they do best...wrestle.

[Guest bob_barron]

Regarding the Lita feud-

It actually got Dean pretty over as a heel and I think if he hadn't gotten hurt it would've done great things for his career. The matches he had v. her were just hilarious. And it gave way to our version of Savage-Liz.

 

The RAW where Lita finally beat Dean in a really funny match thanks to Matt. Matt is so happy that he kisses Lita. He realises what he's done and starts to apologise but Lita grabs him and they kiss. What a great fucking moment.

 

Yea i guess it was a bit sad seeing Dean having to get over as a dirty old man pervert but it got him over and we got to learn Lita showers wearing a thong.

[Guest goodhelmet]

My point regarding the Lita Feud was that instead of Dean feuding with somebody with substance, he was beating up Lita every week. NOT the **** classics I was accustomed to from Dean.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I am now convinced.

 

Hogan made wrestling likes absolutely nothing but 80's style big man matches.

 

I bet he has a King Kong Bundy poster on his wall.