RWTL 96 and 97 Thoughts

[Guest XdojimeX]

"I personally don't understand why some people get so hyper defensive about their perferred style of wrestling. It's one thing to be like, "No sir, you are wrong" and another to be all "screw you chicken eating moron"."

 

Eh, Coffin's verbal punting may have been a little much. But Game came in criticising and comparing a subject he was obviously ignorant about at best, and downright obtuse at worst. Insulting the posters intelligence is going to cause a bit of backlash. Ahmed fucking Johnson?

 

"Personally, I don't particularly find All Japan to be to my taste after a few exposures to it. I can't see actively hunting down more to make it appear in context if I didn't like what I've already seen."

 

Id say more than any other style of wrestling sans Lucha does AJ (pre-'98) bear numerous viewings before making a judgement as a fan. A large part of that is context, and the whole culture barrier at work. Its not a seen it once seen it all type of deal. Its a heady brand of graps compared to most of what I've seen. Ive lost count of how many fans start outright hating the style and end up gigantic fanboys after really digging in. Of course not everyone is going to dig it. Id recommend giving it a good look though, read up on the match recommendations and backstories and give it another shot.

 

"To be more precise, I'm also not so much a fan of All Japan's selling either. Now I see Coffin Surfer's comparison to Steamboat-Flair but disagree with his application of the example. When Flair and Steamboat would exchange chops, they would still both scream out in pain, writhe against the ropes, stagger for a moment and then fire back. It seemed to me that Misawa and (especially) Kawada would be for likely to just absorb blows and fire back immediately."

 

Thats a pretty superficial comparison though. Chops are over like jabs in boxing in an AJ ring. In that sense Flair/Steamer we're certainly more theatrical performers than M/K. On the other hand Ive seen Kawada put over a simple punch as a major momentum changing transition and having the whole crowd buy he was out on his feet. Flair/Steamer played to their crowd while M/K built theirs up. Two different philosophies at work.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

"Thats a pretty superficial comparison though. Chops are over like jabs in boxing in an AJ ring. In that sense Flair/Steamer we're certainly more theatrical performers than M/K. On the other hand Ive seen Kawada put over a simple punch as a major momentum changing transition and having the whole crowd buy he was out on his feet. Flair/Steamer played to their crowd while M/K built theirs up. Two different philosophies at work."

 

You are very right, I was just trying to put in a context that the Game could understand. It had nothing to do with the overness of chops in All Japan, but how in all wrestling they will take turns hitting each other with strikes without putting the other guy's over.

 

Ejiro-Not all the time, watch WrestleWar 89. And I hope your not implying that Steamboat and Flair are better sellers than Kawada and Misawa. And I really don't get your (especially) part with Kawada, since he always put over strikes well in his prime.

 

And if you had seen 12/6/96 you would know that both guys put over the strikes they took after taking them, staggering, and Kawada even drops, and Misawa drops after taking the Gamengiri. It's a really dazzling sequence and I don't understand how anybody can hate it, unless they just don't like brawling.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Oh, and I don't think my verbal punting was that harsh. The guy directly goes against the grain of what other's suggested in the pinned threads, he watches two or three matches and comes here with a know it all attitude and by the end insults the intelligence of All Japan fans. I think I wasn't harsh enough.

 

And on a side note the first All Japan match I saw was Kobashi/Kawada Triple Crown 98 match, and I instantly became a fan. I know that wouldn't work for everybody, and at the time the only wrestling I seriously watching was 80s NWA stuff, I gave up on the WWF years ago.

[Guest Goodear]

I'm sure Misawa and Kawada are great sellers for their style of competition but I am not a big fan of that style based on what I have seen thus far. Like for instance, Kawada can take a major throw like a German suplex get right up to his feet and hit a mafia kick. Then, he'll sort of sell the punishment and go down to a knee or something. Now I can understand that as him having the spirit to overcome the punishment for a moment to throw something out in despiration, but it still bothers me and doesn't ring true in my mind.

 

And yes, based on what I've seen I would put Steamboat and Flair over Misawa and Kawada as far as selling is concerned. Mostly because, like I've said I enjoy their style more of reacting to punishment more since its more immediately readable. I have yet to discover how anyone can really tell that an All Japan wrestler is ripe for the picking other than they throw a strike with nothing behind it (like Kobashi vs Misawa in the tiger driver '91 match) but that is almost moments before the finish most of the time.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

And yes, based on what I've seen I would put Steamboat and Flair over Misawa and Kawada as far as selling is concerned.  Mostly because, like I've said I enjoy their style more of reacting to punishment more since its more immediately readable.  I have yet to discover how anyone can really tell that an All Japan wrestler is ripe for the picking other than they throw a strike with nothing behind it (like Kobashi vs Misawa in the tiger driver '91 match) but that is almost moments before the finish most of the time.

Once again, this goes way back to what you said on another thread. Your watching the post 96 stuff, when the style started to detoriate into odd ball selling and goofiness. This is like watching Flair now, and saying "well I don't see what the big deal is" The 97 Misawa/Kobashi matches are acclaimed, but yes the selling can be frustrating at times, and I wouldn't recommend them to a beginner.

 

If you to want to see incredible selling watch Kawada in 12/3/93.

[Guest J*ingus]

Personally, I would say that Steamboat in his prime was a better seller than Misawa (I sometimes get tired of the same old "shrug off the other guy's offense and throw lotsa elbows" spots), but Kawada is much more consistent than most guys with his selling. He seems a little hampered by his facial expressions sometimes, as he's a bit stone-faced and only seems to have "blank stare" and "cringing wince" settings, but his body language can tell some pretty interesting stories.

 

And yes, the AJPW style is very much a personal preference. I love it, but I've known several indy wrestlers, and good ones, who are quite literally bored to sleep by it. It's just not some people's cup of tea.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Any names?

 

Or at least a fed?

 

Tim, knowing that MOST US Indy workers today thrive on the BAD elements of AJPW.

[Guest J*ingus]

Nobody you've heard of, just a couple of my friends here in the Nashville area, younger guys who prefer old Southern-style wrestling.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Personally, I would say that Steamboat in his prime was a better seller than Misawa (I sometimes get tired of the same old "shrug off the other guy's offense and throw lotsa elbows" spots), but Kawada is much more consistent than most guys with his selling. He seems a little hampered by his facial expressions sometimes, as he's a bit stone-faced and only seems to have "blank stare" and "cringing wince" settings, but his body language can tell some pretty interesting stories.

Steamboat is a bit more dramatic with his selling than Misawa, o.k., waaaaaaaay more dramatic. However, I would say that Misawa at his best, was the smarter seller like for instance in 95 he did some amazing stuff that while isn't eye catching, really put over the other guy's offense (especially Taue's). I think overall at their very best, they may be equal in the selling department.

 

Kawada on the other hand is way more than consistent, he's probably the greatest seller I've ever witnessed. He he had the smarts, the emtion, and frightening realism. Dude, he was by now means hampered by his facial experissions, that was his greatest strength, look how threating he made Albright's offense with the use of facial experssions alone.

[Guest Evil Ash]

What does that say about the match if you need to watch 28 other matches involving the same guys to "get" the match. That's ridiculous and only shows that as a stand-alone it's average and it needs the fairy tale to make it a classic

 

This is an old debate, going back further than wrestling's existance. It has to do with art in general. If a piece of artwork is 'great', shouldn't it be great on it's own?

 

Personally, I'd have to ask whether or not you've ever read any good literature. The majority of books that I'd consider really great come off quite well on their own, but only become super out of this world fantastic when you've read a whole host of other great pieces of work. If you don't know your Bible stories especially you'll miss alot, but there's lots of other important reference material in the literary world.

 

On the match itself, I like it alot, but don't get it to the extent that others seem to. Probably because I haven't got all the background. The 95 tag between Misawa/Kobashi and Taue/Kawada seemed just as rich to me, and had a ton of extra drama. And Kobashi crying. Haha, what a puss.

[Guest TheGame2705]

maybe you just don't like japanese people?

 

Maybe you're just a retard?

 

goodhelmet translation: maybe ur just a retrd?

 

 

Anyway...I'm not gonna come into the folder anymore then if this is what happens when you try and debate something. Now I can see why so many people are frustrated and Jubuki's not even around so who's to blame? You can call me ignorant to the subject and insulting but I've already stated my opinions.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Do whatever you like. Tim asked you to list your favorite matches to get a better understanding of what you like, Dojime explained quite a bit, and so did Coffin Surfer, even if he was hard on you. You went against the reccomendations of everyone here, watched the match completely unfamiliar with the style, and then went off critisizing it and comparing to Ahmed Johnson. What the hell do you expect? A pat on the back for not listening? You can go and bail if you like, but it's your fault, not that of anyone here.

[Guest TheGame2705]

Do whatever you like. Tim asked you to list your favorite matches to get a better understanding of what you like, Dojime explained quite a bit, and so did Coffin Surfer, even if he was hard on you. You went against the reccomendations of everyone here, watched the match completely unfamiliar with the style, and then went off critisizing it and comparing to Ahmed Johnson. What the hell do you expect? A pat on the back for not listening? You can go and bail if you like, but it's your fault, not that of anyone here.

On the first account, Tim's doing it to be a prick. He's probably as smarmy as Jubuki. Even if he's not, I honestly can't list my ten faves. I go on a match by match basis and if I like it, I like it. If I had to do a rough sketch of my 10 faves in no particular order:

 

1. Barely Legal M-Pro Tag

2. Bret/Austin WM 13

3. Royal Rumble Match 1994

4. Royal Rumble Match 1993

5. Steiners vs. Sting/Luger- Superbrawl 3?

6. Starrcade 2000 3 Way Ladder Tag

7. Liger/Pillman- Superbrawl 2

8. HHH-Austin/Jericho-Benoit

9. Bret/Owen- WM 10

10. Lex Luger/Giant- Starrcade 96

 

xDojime I had no problem with.

 

Coffin Surfer just immediately brushed off what I was saying and just resorted to flaming.

 

I still don't see how it can't compare to an Ahmed match. The loud grunt, the stiff moves, the power moves, the no-selling, the lack of playing to the crowd, etc. The "Style" is the same thing people go gaga over MMA/Shoot for. Stiff hitting and fighting that looks real.

 

I watched NJPW Battle Formation up to Savage/Tenzan (2nd match) and I already am excited about the rest of it. Nagata/Ka Shin vs. Otani/Kanemoto was a pretty darn good match IMO. You didn't need a story spanning 8 years or 50 other matches to like it. KaShin and Kanemoto are juniors and through what I've seen in American wrestling, lightweight usually means a spot wrestler. I went into the match thinking I'd see some cool spots but I didn't see any of that but I still liked it alot so personally, I think that's a load of bs with the whole "of course you wouldn't like it, you don't know the style, you're ignorant".

 

I'll probably peruse the forum to see if any interesting topics pop up but I know better next time not to go against common opinion.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"On the first account, Tim's doing it to be a prick. He's probably as smarmy as Jubuki."

 

Yep, you caught me. I was just being a dick.

 

"Even if he's not, I honestly can't list my ten faves. I go on a match by match basis and if I like it, I like it."

 

Okay, there is nothing wrong with that but in wrestling, dividing the good between the bad goes a little farther than "Did I like it the first time" for me.

 

1. Barely Legal M-Pro Tag

- Good stand alone match. Though if you know their history, you would know that this match is FAR from the best these guys have done in a 6, 8, or 10 man setting. Also, their is much less heel/face interaction in the ECW match, partially due to the ECW crowd but also due to a lesser match.

 

2. Bret/Austin WM 13

- A match you need history for. If I didn't know that Bret left for 6 months and Austin was a brash youngster trying to pave his way by dethroning a legend like Hart, I wouldn't even begin to know why they hated each other so much.

 

3. Royal Rumble Match 1994

4. Royal Rumble Match 1993

- Rumble aren't my cup of tea.

 

5. Steiners vs. Sting/Luger- Superbrawl 3?

- Superbrawl I. Good match, but not the best tag team match for 1991.

 

6. Starrcade 2000 3 Way Ladder Tag

- Live, it was excellent. ***1/2ish. On tape, around 3 1/4ish.

 

7. Liger/Pillman- Superbrawl 2

- Excellent match. Not in Liger's top 10 matches of all time though.

 

8. HHH-Austin/Jericho-Benoit

- ***.

 

9. Bret/Owen- WM 10

- Excellent w/ backstory to fully get it all.

 

10. Lex Luger/Giant- Starrcade 96

- ok.

 

I'm at work so I don't have a lot of time but my main point is that for every good match, there is backstory. Whether you accept the work on a work level or not, the deeper story is what drives it.

 

Tim

[Guest Black Tiger]

My personal feeling is that a great match, is a great match on it's own, but a back story is supposed to add to the match. From this viewpoint I can totally see where TheGame is coming from. He doens't enjoy the match and gets his head bitten off because he hasn't seen all the matches that build it up first. He's getting the message that a match won't be great until you've seen the whole story. For an North American example look at the American Dragon vs Paul London ROH match from 4/12/03. On it's own the match is incredible, but if you know the backstory and saw the previous matches it just comes off as that much better.

 

Same bit goes for 6/3/94. Newbie's hear that it's supposedly the greatest match ever, but then they're told they shouldn't watch it unless they watch all these AJPW matches dating back as far as Choysu's invasion. The idea becomes "if the match is so damn great, why do I need to watch all these other tapes before I can enjoy it?"

[Guest Ace309]

You know, I'd like to be Captain Obvious for a moment.

 

People who grow up on American wrestling see excellent matches and think they stand on their own for one major reason - they speak English, and the commentators act as a Greek chorus to explain the important points to them. It's been a while since I watched Bret/Owen WMX, but it was, imho, one of the best the WWF ever put out. If you'd been living in a cave for six months prior to the match and turned it on, the commentators caught you right up on what had been happening. Sure, you might not have gotten little pieces like Owen playing possum the way Bret did (I don't believe they pointed this out on commentary), but it was certainly easier to catch on.

 

I don't speak Japanese, so I don't understand the commentary. If anyone on the board does speak the language and have the desire to explain things, I'd be interested to know whether they Japanese announcers do the same thing or whether they mostly stick to a more play-by-play approach... but either way, I'd say the lack of American-style commentary presents a major hurdle for people who think they expect a match to stand on its own, but don't really.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Coffin Surfer just immediately brushed off what I was saying and just resorted to flaming.

 

I still don't see how it can't compare to an Ahmed match. The loud grunt, the stiff moves, the power moves, the no-selling, the lack of playing to the crowd, etc. The "Style" is the same thing people go gaga over MMA/Shoot for. Stiff hitting and fighting that looks real.

Ugh......

 

I completely broke your posts down twice, that isn't brushing your points off. I went over everyone of your points, and made a counter argument, you just chose to ignore it.

 

 

No-Selling-I done explained this one over and over, yet your can't comphrened, that there is no no-selling in the match. Misawa does an out on his feet sell of a German, even though he staggered up, he still sold it.

 

stiff moves and powermoves-Oh my god, Benoit does a Powerbomb, Eddy used Powerbombs, Lyger uses Powerbombs, I guess that means there all like Ahmed Johnson.

 

Loud grunts-Now this is just plain silly. Every wrestler screams or something when they lift somebody up, have you ever lifted weights, it an't easy. It also creates the illusion that the guy their lifting isn't helping them out at all.

 

Lack of playing the crowd-They do involve crowd with their actions and the story, they don't need taunts(though they sometimes do it anyway). Taue doing the "Whoa!" arm raise in 12/6/96, which brings me to Jumbo and Hansen who always did taunts. Even than, I don't see how this makes you like Ahmed Johnson.

 

And no, All Japan is not shoot style it's pro style.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

From this viewpoint I can totally see where TheGame is coming from. He doens't enjoy the match and gets his head bitten off because he hasn't seen all the matches that build it up first. He's getting the message that a match won't be great until you've seen the whole story.

Black Tiger, we're not just talking about his neglect to get the backstory or even get used to the style first. His stuff about "no-selling" and "disregarding tag team rules" were poorly thought out at best, and when explained to him, largely disregarded. When responding to Surfer's remark about "knowing each other's limit" he decided to make a sex joke instead of listening. It's the general attitude that prevented things from moving forward in the discusion. Even from a "stand alone" stance, his arguements against the match were poor.