United States of Europe

[Guest DeputyHawk]

No matter how much the British government is trying to play this down, the fact is that come June (when the proposal will be made) and then October (when it will be ratified) this USE is going to become a reality. It's a momentous development in the history of the world and, barring any further wars, will be THE story of 2004.

 

Valery Giscard d'Estaing, former French President & current chairman of the Convention on the Future of Europe, is the man who proposed the term 'United States of Europe', so it's no mere soundbite, it's a statement of intent. Here's another quote from him made last October:

 

"The [European] Union has reached a major turning point in its history, and it must therefore rethink, readjust and - in part - reinvent the system and propose a new Europe ... a union of European states closely co-ordinating their policies and administering certain common competencies along federal lines."

 

While keeping fairly quiet about these developments, Tony Blair seems all for this but the British public (led, it must be said, by the rampantly anti-European British tabloid press) are firmly opposed - the legislation will greatly reduce British sovereignty (and that of the other nation states), including plans to create a public prosecutor with jurisdiction right across Europe, qualified majority voting (the major bone of contention), and standardised foreign, defense, economic and employment policies.

 

Now, Europe's been quietly building towards something like this for quite some time now (going back through the Rome & Maastricht treaties), but the process has accelerated greatly following France, Germany & Russia's objections to the USA's decision to ignore the UN over Iraq. It's no secret that many Eurocrats want to see a united EU as a superpower capable of standing up to America's 'bully-boy' tactics as regards the Middle East and elsewhere.

 

Action and reaction, as time passes it's amazing just how pivotal a moment in the history of Planet Earth two planes flying into two towers is proving to be.

 

What are people's thoughts on this inevitable occurrence - an exciting move towards a more unified mankind, or a cyncical ploy to reduce the powers of NATO (and therefore America) by pulling the 25 new EU member countries into an all-encompassing European Supersate?

Edited May 29, 2003 by DeputyHawk

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

What are people's thoughts on this inevitable occurrence - an exciting move towards a more unified mankind, or a cyncical ploy to reduce the powers of NATO (and therefore America) by pulling the 15 new EU member countries into an all-encompassing European Supersate?

Don't think they have that much in common. NATO operates in such a strange way that it doesn't matter what terms its member countries are on, when it comes down to doing things through NATO the agreement is usually there. I think it's because NATO is mainly a military organisation rather than a political one. I've never seen an official NATO mission where all the member countries were not behind it. I guess what I'm saying is this: NATO's job is to protect the common security of all the Western countries, and so disputes like this current US/Britain vs. France/Germany stuff don't factor into its decision making process.

[Guest WhenDanSaysJump]

As a British Citizen, I'm... long past caring.

[Guest MrRant]

Wooo.... as long as it means Cold War II.

[Guest DrTom]

It's no secret that many Eurocrats want to see a united EU as a superpower capable of standing up to America's 'bully-boy' tactics as regards the Middle East and elsewhere.

It won't help. If we want to do something badly enough, we're just going to do it. The fact that the European countries can't decide now who's side their on is only going to make things more comical when they have to reach an official, USE decision.

 

Of course, if this leads to the demise of the UN, I'm all for it.

[Guest cartman]

I was gonna post something about this a few months ago when I first learned of the possibilities, but people would have probably just laughed at me because i'm Liberal

 

President Tony Blair on the way!

[Guest DeputyHawk]

I've never seen an official NATO mission where all the member countries were not behind it. I guess what I'm saying is this: NATO's job is to protect the common security of all the Western countries, and so disputes like this current US/Britain vs. France/Germany stuff don't factor into its decision making process.

I think the perceived threat to NATO from the emerging USE lies in this mutual defense clause, which is one of the most likely proposals to be ratified by the EU countries come October. While NATO's job is indeed to protect the common security of all the Western countries, a mutual defense clause within the USE would essentially override that due to the qualified majority voting which will become law. And when that's the case, current disputes such as US/Britain vs. France/Germany become of tantamount importance because it will create a conflict of interest within Europe as regards defense and military policy between disparate NATO and USE interests. Which, one would have to assume, is exactly what certain member states are looking to have happen by drawing up the plans for this new European constitution in the first place.

[Guest DeputyHawk]

President Tony Blair on the way!

Not a chance in hell unfortunately, the Frenchies are rowing this boat!

 

Peter Hain, however, is lurking ambitiously in the shadows...

[Guest MrRant]

I wouldn't do business with anything that includes the French.

 

This includes Canada because of Quebec.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

I was gonna post something about this a few months ago when I first learned of the possibilities, but people would have probably just laughed at me because i'm Liberal

 

President Tony Blair on the way!

We wouldn't laughed at you, Europe is full of socialist countries and this shouldn't come as a suprise to anyone.

 

What I don't understand is don't these countries have any sense of national pride in their country. Why do you more or less wanna become the United States of Europe.

Edited May 29, 2003 by Vern Gagne

[Guest DeputyHawk]

We wouldn't laughed at you, Europe is a socialist country

God Bless America

[Guest Cover of Darkness]

Wooo.... as long as it means Cold War II.

As much as the thought of a second Cold War is intriguing, it isn't an accurate description. This seems like a desperation move because Europe can't handle the fact that since WWII- Am,erica has been running the show. Now they want to be the Big Guys again.

 

There is one wild card: Russia. The fledgling USE might not have the resources after restructurization to offer Russia a competitive aid package. The US could use this opportunity to rebuild solid economic and military ties to Russia (and by proxy- Eastern Europe), then if Russia ever gets it's act together you have the interesting conflict of the US and the Former Warsaw Pact competing with the former NATO.

 

By how will we counter James Bond?

[Guest cartman]

I was gonna post something about this a few months ago when I first learned of the possibilities, but people would have probably just laughed at me because i'm Liberal

 

President Tony Blair on the way!

We wouldn't laughed at you, Europe is full of socialist countries and this shouldn't come as a suprise to anyone.

 

What I don't understand is don't these countries have any sense of national pride in their country. Why do you more or less wanna become the United States of Europe.

It all comes down to Money in the long run anyways, Money rules the world ya know.

[Guest Vyce]

I think Dr. Tom has it right.

 

The Euros will try and use their power to cockblock us on some stuff we really want to do, but in the end we'll still get our way, because the EU (or USE, or whatever their initials will be) is mainly composed of moderate powers like France and small, tiny Eastern-European countries.

 

If we want to do something bad enough, we'll still get it done, but we'll likely have a lot more arguing about it. It'll be just like the UN mess with the war. And it'll give everyone another excuse to bitch that we Americans are "destroying the goodwill of the world."