Kim to Boston, Shea to Arizona

[Guest Kingpk]

BOSTON -- The Red Sox traded All-Star third baseman Shea Hillenbrand to Arizona for Byung-Hyun Kim on Thursday, cashing in their most tradable player for a former reliever who will join their rotation.

 

Kim is best known for his Yankee Stadium meltdown in Games 4 and 5 of the 2001 World Series, but has had a solid career with Arizona.

 

He reluctantly filled the closer's role after Matt Mantei injured an elbow in 2001 and holds the club record with 70 saves, including a team-record 36 last season. He was 8-3 last year with a 2.04 ERA and 92 strikeouts in 84 innings.

 

But he never hid his desire to be a starter, and he was given a chance this year. He is 1-5 with a 3.56 ERA, but he has been hurt by a lack of run support.

 

Although Boston's plan to employ a closer by committee has been undermined by the shaky performance of its relievers, Kim fills a more immediate need for someone to start while ace Pedro Martinez is on the disabled list. He is eligible to come off the DL this weekend.

 

"After some discussion and inquiry on their part as to BK's preference, Theo assured us that BK would slot into their rotation," said Kim's agent, Jeff Moorad.

 

Moorad said Kim did not rule out a return to the bullpen "but BK made it clear through me that his preference was to start, and Theo's position was that the team would honor that request."

 

Hillenbrand, who is from Mesa, Ariz., jumped from Double-A to the major leagues in spring training two years ago and made the AL All-Star team last year.

 

But his lack of patience at the plate made him the frequent subject of trade talks as Boston general manager Theo Epstein stressed on-base percentage and working pitchers deep into the count.

 

For most of the winter, Hillenbrand was discussed as bait for Expos starter Bartolo Colon. That deal fell through when the Red Sox refused to include pitcher Casey Fossum along with Hillenbrand, and Colon was traded to the Chicago White Sox instead.

 

Even so, the Red Sox worked Hillenbrand out at first base and gathered infielders in case he was eventually dealt.

 

Hillenbrand has batted .303 with 38 RBI, playing 49 of Boston's 52 games in all. He has shared third base with Bill Mueller, who leads the Red Sox with a .382 batting average in 44 games; at first base, sharing the duties with David Ortiz and Kevin Millar, Hillenbrand has been the team's best fielder.

 

Hillenbrand was considered even more valuable because he makes just $407,500 and isn't eligible for free agency until after the 2006 season. Kim makes $3.25 million and is eligible for free agency after the '05 season.

 

Despite his limited service time, Hillenbrand is 27 and has been with the Red Sox organization since he was drafted in the 10th round in 1996. He was one of four players on the Boston roster that came up through the system.

 

Although Kim is just 24, the South Korean is in his fifth season in the majors. Kim has been in the rotation now that Mantei is back, but one potential hitch to the trade came when Mantei and rookie starter Brandon Webb returned to Phoenix for MRI exams.

 

Mantei had stiffness in his shoulder, and Webb is on the disabled list with elbow tendinitis.

 

Kim was placed on the 15-day DL on April 30 with a bruised right ankle, an injury caused when he was hit with part of a broken bat.

 

He came off the DL and allowed just one run in seven innings at San Francisco Tuesday night but got no decision when the Diamondbacks couldn't hold a 2-1 lead and lost 4-3 in 13 innings.

 

There were two Red Sox scouts to watch.

 

Now, while this does alleviate the Sox pitching woes a bit, I'm just sad to see a guy like Shea (who probably would have been a big asset for the next 5 years) go so soon. Plus, it just gives Yankees fans more ammo ("All they could get was a guy who folded like a poorly pitched tent when it mattered.")

[Guest DawnBTVS]

Damn...I like Kim a lot but I also dug Shea a helluva lot two years ago when he first came up till now.

[Guest HartFan86]

WHAT THE FUCK OF A TRADE IS THAT?

 

They got rid of Shea F'n Hillenbrand who is....WAS going to be a big part of this ballclub for some fucking halfass reliever?

 

Fuck that. Great job, Theo. You REALLY are earning your colors.

[Guest MaxPower27]

Maybe they offered Theo a box of animal crackers.

 

Bad trade. Hillenbrand has somewhat proven himself as a good hitter, while Kim is known as a failed relief pitcher that gets no runs support.

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

Kim's not going to be helped any by the Boston 'attitude' towards minorities (Black players in particular). But then again, we'll have to see if they jump on Kim.

 

Then again, Boston's ineptness since 1918 can be blamed on idiocy and racism from their front offices.

[Bored 0]

Hillenbrand hits for average but doesn't reach base enough (.303 avg but only a .335 obp) and that is why they traded him.

[Guest cartman]

I have been telling everyone I know about this trade for weeks now and everyone thinks it's a GREAT deal for Boston because it "takes from a strenght to fill a weakness".

 

Well I promise you this is Jeff Bagwell all over again folks. Kim is Larry Anderson.

 

Kim is going to START for the sox, not close, or relieve. Which means either Burkett or Wakefield is going to the bullpen...yea THAT is gonna help us.

 

Kim is going to FAIL miserably in Boston, mark my words here and now. While Shea burns it up playing first base for Arizona for years to come. Stupid trade in every way. Kim sucks, plain and simple, and Shea will go on to bat .300 or better every year while putting up Nomar like numbers. Why you ask? Because He learned from Nomar's hitting style. He hits everything, but never walks...just like Nomar. Who wouldnt want two Nomar's on their team?

 

Oh yea that's right...Theo.

[Guest DawnBTVS]

Bill Mueller can't replace the production that was offered by Hillenbrand quite obviously and what's the purpose of Kim? Our SP's were doing solid/decent and while our bullpen is suspect...doesn't look like Kim's going there. So WTF was the purpose of this trade?

[Guest alkeiper]

What the hell are you guys smoking? Hillenbrand SUCKS. At best, he's an average third baseman. He's already 27. His OBP is lackluster, as is his Slugging. As for Mueller, have you looked at his stats this year? Unbelieveable. And he gets on base too. Plus he's a top notch defender.

 

Kim, on the other hand, has an unbelieveable strike-out rate, which is a good predictor of future success. I love this trade for the Red Sox.

[Guest HartFan86]

Weren't they saving positive things about Mendoza too?

 

Yeah, that turned out great.

 

I think the Bagwell/Anderson comparsion is pretty much right on the money.

[Guest alkeiper]

Except for the small issue that Andersen was 37, and Kim is 24. As for Mendoza, he didn't even reach the majors until he was 24.

 

As for Bagwell, he had 92 home runs at Hillenbrand's age. If Hillenbrand becomes anywhere near as good as Bagwell, I'll swear off sex forever.

[Guest DrTom]

What the hell are you guys smoking? Hillenbrand SUCKS.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's rushing to suck Shea's cock. While I won't say he sucks, he's certainly overrated: he had one good season after proving for several years that he could neither walk nor get on base, and he was annointed as a messiah. His average was down this year, as was his power. Kim is a young pitcher with a devastating arsenal of pitches... he can make a lot of good hitters look STUPID at the plate. Yeah, he's had some problems in the past, but he had a good year last year, and he's pitched a lot better this year than you'll see in the W column.

 

Good trade for the Sox.

[Guest DrTom]

Bill Mueller can't replace the production that was offered by Hillenbrand quite obviously...

Well, let's see. This year's stats:

AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS/HR/RBI

Hillenbrand: .303/.335/.443/.778/3/38 (185 AB)

Mueller: .382/.441/.625/1.066/3/22 (136 AB)

 

Mueller leads the team in the statistical categories listed. He's blowing guys like Manny Ramirez and Nomar away in OBP, SLG, and OPS. Mueller has also proven quite versatile in the field, as he's started several games at second base, and subbed for Nomar at short on occasion.

 

Hillenbrand's stats last year, when everyone started creaming their Underoos over him:

.293 BA, 18 HR, 83 RBI, .330/.459/.789

 

Mueller's career numbers:

.291/.373/.410/.783

 

He's comparable in OPS, has hit at least .290 six times, and has thrice had his OBA over .400. He doesn't hit for the power Hillenbrand does, so he won't drive in as many runs, but he does get on base and create scoring chances more often (he's no slouch on the bases, either). He also has a lot of doubles this year, since his natural swing causes line drives in the gaps -- an excellent strategy for success in Boston, with the Green Monster to bang the ball off of in left, and the spacious power alley in right-center.

 

Basically, Mueller's played circles around Hillenbrand this year, and even Shea's best year was simply good, not great in any way.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

I'm not a fan of either guy. I like Hillenbrands RBI numbers, but the Red Sox have guys who can drive in runs.

 

The Red Sox needed a starter. They could give up an everyday player and Hillenbrand was going to be the guy.

[Guest cartman]

Numbers don't really mean everything though. Mueller has had this incredible start to the season, and that's all fine and dandy, but he sure as hell isnt going to keep this up all year.

 

If Mueller keep this up all year, and Kim turns out to being useful, and Hillenbrand turns out to suck it up in Arizons, I will eat those words. I just don't think all of that will happen. With a pitching staff like Boston has right now they needed all the offensive depth they could get. They just grew a bit weaker that's all.

[Guest alkeiper]

Numbers don't really mean everything though. Mueller has had this incredible start to the season, and that's all fine and dandy, but he sure as hell isnt going to keep this up all year.

 

Probably not, but he's got over 50 points of career OBP over Hillenbrand. That's significant.

 

With a pitching staff like Boston has right now they needed all the offensive depth they could get.

 

Huh? They're 2nd in the league in runs scored, but 11th in runs allowed. They clearly need pitching more than hitting.

 

The thing that's overlooked is that this move allows for the promotion of Freddy Sanchez, who is absolutely ripping the cover off the ball in Pawtucket (.384/.476/.566). He'll be able to replace Hillenbrand's bat, and Kim will take the place of the worst Red Sox pitcher, so this move improves the Sox.

[Guest DrTom]

Mueller has had this incredible start to the season, and that's all fine and dandy, but he sure as hell isnt going to keep this up all year.

Maybe not, but he's hit over .300 with an OBP over .400 before, so there's no reason he can't do it again. A .300 average and .400 OBP, along with 8-10 homers and 60 RBI is certainly possible. Besides, his swing is perfect for Fenway, so I'd expect him to continue hitting a lot of doubles, which puts him in good scoring position, drives in almost anyone from first base, and boosts his SLG. The guy's been a quality hitter his whole career, so there's no reason to expect him to go into the tank anytime soon.

 

If Mueller keep this up all year, and Kim turns out to being useful, and Hillenbrand turns out to suck it up in Arizons, I will eat those words.

That's not really a fair way to evaluate the trade. You said a paragraph before that Mueller won't keep this up the whole year, then said you'd like the trade only if he did. Que? Mueller's going to have a productive year for the Sox, Kim will be a nice addition to their rotation (and they need more help with pitching than with hitting at this point), and Hillenbrand will be reasonably productive for Arizona. I've never thought he was a scrub, but he IS overrated. Still, he can hit a dozen homers and drive in 65 runs for Arizona the rest of the way, which I'm sure they'll take over their other 1B options.

[Guest Some Guy]

Kim's not going to be helped any by the Boston 'attitude' towards minorities (Black players in particular). But then again, we'll have to see if they jump on Kim.

 

Then again, Boston's ineptness since 1918 can be blamed on idiocy and racism from their front offices.

That's possibly the most ignorant statement I've ever read on this forum.

 

The Red Sox had a hystory of racism that has been largely erased in the last 25 years. Save Carl Everett's bullshit. Ask Jim Rice, Mo Vaugn, Pedro, Nomar, Manny, Darren Lewis, etc... How they've been treated racially in Boston and you'll here no complaints.

 

Ask Jackie Robinson, if he were still alive and there was a problem. The only other semi-recent guy that I've heard complain is Ellis Burks.

 

This is a different club than it was whern Tom Yawkey was running things, why is it that a lot of people can't seem to grasp that?

 

This town is tough on it's players, sometimes unfairly and that has caused guys to crumble when they aren't going well, NY is similar in that respect.

 

But since the Sox have only Damian Jackson and Rober Person on the team this year we're racist again. Despite having many hispanic players and just trading for a Korean anmd dropping a white guy and the Sox are bringing up Freddie Sanchez and guess what? He ain't white either. I've had more than enough of this Boston and the Red Sox are racist bullshit.

 

As far as the trade goes: I'm a big fan of Shea and I don't wet my pants about OBP, unless you're a #1 or #2 hitter is is very overrated. Shea was hitting for a good avg and driving in runs form the 6 and 7th spot. That's was his job, he was also playing good 3rd and very good 1B. His arm is eratic and 1B is is better postion. I've been sayign all year that that Mueller should be the everyday 3B and Shea the 1B. Millar can't field grounders to his right and Ortiz is pretty horrible defensively, Giambi is abismal at any defensive position.

 

I don't hate this deal but I'm a little concerned about Kim's performance in Game 4 and 5 of the 2001 WS and the All Star game last year. If this trade was about winning a WS as Theo said why geta guy who blew his chances in the WS?

 

Obviously if Kim goes on to have a great year out of the pen, which is the plan accoridng to Grady Little after Pedro comes off the DL and then starts well for the next couple years and we make it deep into the post-season then I'll eat my words as well.

 

Has anybody noticed that people shitting on Shea are not the Boston fans? The people who just read his stats and don't se him play everyday (apparently Theo is one of you, I'll egt back to this) I don't think this is another Bagwell/Anderson deal but it could come back to bite us.

 

Theo Epstein has been gung ho about OBP and "Closer by Committee" The latter has failed miserbly and the former is overrated. Look at Giambi, "This guy is an on base machine" so says Theo maybe so but what the fuck can the guy do once he's there? Nothing, he's slower than constipated bowels and a bad baserunner, on top of that he can't hit his weight.

 

I think we have an example of a young GM having to eat crow about "Closer by commitee" and not wanting to admit that he could have been wrong about Shea and OBP. All we heard all winter was how they were going to trade Shea because of his suspect defense and relativly low OBP. Well they solved the defense by putting him at the position he played in the minors. BTW, so any of you know that that the first time he played 3B everyday was when he made it to teh big leagues? Theo can stay on his OBP Jihad but is that mens we end up with more Giambis and no Sheas then fine, I'll stop paying attention.

 

Baseball is not played in a stat book, the A's for all their regualr season succes haven't made it out the 1st round of the playoffs, because you can't walk your way to a WS. We've had enough regular season success, we want a WS here.

[Guest DrTom]

I don't wet my pants about OBP, unless you're a #1 or #2 hitter is is very overrated.

Scoring runs is never overrated. And the fact remains that, even if you have a bunch of mashers on your team, you're not going to be very successful if they drive themselves in more than anyone else.

 

OBP is a very useful stat, more useful than batting average, IMO. Guys who can get on base create scoring chances for their team. If the leadoff batter in an inning gets on base, then the team's chances of scoring a run go up from about 25% to 49%. That's doubling your chance to score, just because someone was able to work the count and get a walk. I generally dislike making lists, but here are a few reasons why OBP is anything but overrated:

 

1. You need men on base to score runs. Getting one or two runners on means a single brings someone home, and a double probably scores them all. The team that can mash its way to all of its runs consistently and still win is rare indeed.

2. Getting men on base forces the defense to adjust. Their positioning will change based on baserunners and how late in the game it is. Good hitters can exploit a defense that leaves a hole to try and get out of a jam.

3. Working the count and getting walks wears pitchers out. Exceptional starting pitchers tend to be accurate, but if they're having an off day, you can get them out of the game faster. Seeing more pitches allows everyone on the team to see what the pitcher can do, how he pitches from the stretch, how quick or slow he is to first base, etc -- all very useful pieces of information for an offense, and much better to see live than read in a scouting report. Getting starters out of the game early exposes most teams' bullpen, since thw quality of middle and long relief in the majors isn't exactly good.

4. Having men on base a lot puts pressure on the pitcher to throw strikes. If he does throw strikes, then your hitters will have better pitches to hit. If he succumbs to the pressure and is wild, then you get more men on base. It's a win-win scenario.

5. Defenses feel the pressure, too. How many certain double-play balls have we seen botched because one of the infielders tried to throw the ball before he had it? Or rushed a throw to try and clear the bases? Pressure inevitably leads to mistakes, and the more pressure an offense can create, the more chances they have to force the defense into making a mistake.

 

I could probably list a few more, but those will work for now.

 

... the A's for all their regualr season succes haven't made it out the 1st round of the playoffs, because you can't walk your way to a WS.

The Oakland A's have had a good run preaching the good word of OBP to their hitters. Their losses have come from playoff inexperience and pitching that failed them on the big stage. Look at the Yankees of the past 5-6 years, though: except for last year (when they turned into the Bash Brothers Redux), their offense was built around patient hitting, working counts, and getting on base. Last year, they turned into a mashing team. Guess which year they didn't win the World Series? I know that's not the only reason (aging starters and poor overall team D helped), but don't delude yourself into thinking it didn't play a part. When your team is down by a few runs, all you need is a couple men on base to threaten the defense. At that point, a seeing-eye single can change the game, and a bad-hop grounder down the line can change the lead. If all your team does is mash, then you need three balls to go over the fence, which is a lot harder to pull off.

 

I'll acknowledge your point about chaps like Jeremy Giambi, though, SG: it does help to be able to do something on the bases once you get there. Even a chap with average speed scores from second on most singles, and from first on almost all doubles. Slow-footed guys force you to play station-to-station, which can still be done with OBP, just not as easily. For my money, if you're going to use OBP as a criterion for building a team, that's great. But you need guys who can consistently hit the ball in addition to walking (I'd rather have a .280 AVG and .390 OBP than .260 and .400), and who have at least average speed. Your one big masher can be slow, but everyone else should be able to capitalize on their ability to get on base.

[Guest Some Guy]

But Fenway is a little different than any other park. A single to left with a runner on second doesn't always mean a run and a walk certainly doesn't. As I'm sure you know the left field line is 310 feet and there is a huge wall there, so left fielders play shallow because vitually anythign over there head will hit the wall fora double or long single and they can rob base hits in front them and throw out guys at the plate trying to score from second on a single. A double does does mean a run when a guy is on second. That's where Shea is valuable, he hits singles the other way and hits a lot of doubles, 40 or so last year. A lot has been made of his lack of HRs on the local sports station, but that doesn't mean anything. He isn't a flyball hitter, he hits a lot of hard grounders and linedrives. Those don't get over the Monster. He's been robbed of many HRs because of that wal, as has Nomar.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/1560894.html

 

That's a column by Rob Neyer and I see his point but he is greatly underestimating Shea's importance to the club.

 

Honestly I hope the deal works out and I hope they trade to get Shea back at some point.

 

BTW, I've heard the arguments for OBP and OPS and I understand them, but what irritates me is that certain guys are held to different standards. Nomar swings at the first pitch way more often than Shea and management says nothing about it, Shea takes pitches and gets shit on. I know Nomar is a way better hitter in the long run but Shea's no slouch.

[Bored 0]

Baseball is not played in a stat book, the A's for all their regualr season succes haven't made it out the 1st round of the playoffs, because you can't walk your way to a WS.  We've had enough regular season success, we want a WS here.

Well if you don't have regular season success you aren't even going to get to the playoffs. The Red Sox haven't had THAT much regular season success as they haven't been to the postseason in the last three years. Also the postseason is different from the regular season as anyone can beat anyone especially in a five game series as even the worst team could take three out of five from the best team at any point.

[Guest alkeiper]

Tom, great points, but you missed the most important thing about On Base Percentage. Its also an out percentage. In baseball, there's two basic outcomes, reaching safely, or making an out. A hitter with a high OBP is quite simply making outs less often. And when you get a limited amount of outs each inning or game, that's very important. Earl Weaver's first law of baseball stated that your most important offensive weapon is your 27 outs. I believe that's true.

 

I don't hate this deal but I'm a little concerned about Kim's performance in Game 4 and 5 of the 2001 WS and the All Star game last year. If this trade was about winning a WS as Theo said why geta guy who blew his chances in the WS?

 

Because its unwise to make a player evaluation based on a few bad games. Look up Kim's most similar players on baseball-reference.com. Goose Gossage is on the list. He's struck out 347 batters in 280 innings, and his ERA has been under 3.00 the last two years. Sure Hillenbrand might turn out ok, but I think Kim could be even better.

 

Theo Epstein has been gung ho about OBP and "Closer by Committee" The latter has failed miserbly and the former is overrated. Look at Giambi, "This guy is an on base machine" so says Theo maybe so but what the fuck can the guy do once he's there? Nothing, he's slower than constipated bowels and a bad baserunner, on top of that he can't hit his weight.

 

How has the committee failed? The Red Sox are in first place. Theo simply decided to focus the Sox efforts on more important areas. Look what he got in the offseason.....

 

Todd Walker (.326/.368/.430)

Kevin Millar (.290/.346/.475)

Bill Muellar (.382/.441/.625)

David Ortiz (.273/.354/.444)

Brandon Lyon (3.28 ERA)

 

So the bullpen's not the greatest. Big deal. Lots of teams have good bullpens, but it doesn't mean a damn unless you have a lead. I'll take Theo and his .596 winning percentage anyday.

 

think we have an example of a young GM having to eat crow about "Closer by commitee" and not wanting to admit that he could have been wrong about Shea and OBP. All we heard all winter was how they were going to trade Shea because of his suspect defense and relativly low OBP. Well they solved the defense by putting him at the position he played in the minors. BTW, so any of you know that that the first time he played 3B everyday was when he made it to teh big leagues? Theo can stay on his OBP Jihad but is that mens we end up with more Giambis and no Sheas then fine, I'll stop paying attention.

 

Hillenbrand's bat is worthless at first. At third, he's productive. At first, he's eating outs when his slot in the batting order could be filled by a much more productive hitter.

 

Baseball is not played in a stat book, the A's for all their regualr season succes haven't made it out the 1st round of the playoffs, because you can't walk your way to a WS. We've had enough regular season success, we want a WS here.

 

This is what kill me. Your "fuck stats, we'll play Jose Offerman" front office-men tried to win a World Series for over 80 years. It didn't work. Maybe its time for a new approach.

[Guest DrTom]

A single to left with a runner on second doesn't always mean a run and a walk certainly doesn't.

So maybe it just loads the bases instead. Is that a bad thing? A hitter who's not as disciplined might strike out or pop up on a pitch a smarter hitter would take -- or worse, end the inning in one swing with an at'em ball. Besides, an aggressive third-base coach, while not sending runners to certain doom, will force the left fielder to make a good throw. At many points in the game, that's an acceptable risk. A few feet up the line can mean a run, and you don't put that pressure on the left fielder unless you had men on base.

 

As I'm sure you know the left field line is 310 feet and there is a huge wall there, so left fielders play shallow...

Actually, from what I've seen, visiting teams' left fielders play shallower, while the Sox left fielders tend to play several paces deeper. I've noticed that a lot of balls hit off the Monster tend to be long singles if the left fielder is right there to play the carom. Boston left fielders are used to the wall and can practice on it often, so they know how to play the angles better. Visiting left fielders, IMO, compensate for the height of the wall by playing shallower than they should, which results in better chances to get an extra base from a ball off the wall.

 

That's where Shea is valuable, he hits singles the other way and hits a lot of doubles, 40 or so last year.

Mueller hits balls into right and the right-center field gap a lot. He also has over 20 doubles this year. He's a great hitter for a park like Fenway, which rewards people who don't have tremendous power by allowing them to hit doubles.

 

He's been robbed of many HRs because of that wal, as has Nomar.

No way. It's 310 down the line, for chrissakes. I don't care that the wall's 37 feet hight: it's *310 feet* to hit one over the fence. As long as you elevate the ball, you're golden. It's much easier to hit a ball out there than in a place where the wall's 10 feet high and 335 feet away. Yeah, it'll take away the line-drive homer you might get somewhere else, but other parks make your 330 flyball down the line into a long out. At worst, I think it's a wash.

 

Smart hitters use the Monster to their advantage anyway, and don't try to hit everything over it. Visiting players and sluggers new to Boston see that 310 figure and start to salivate, then try to elevate everything over the monster. Hitters are more successful letting the homers fall where they may, and just drive the ball to left to capitalize on the big target for doubles.

 

Nomar swings at the first pitch way more often than Shea and management says nothing about it...

Nomar has a track record of success, also. He also rarely swings at a bad ball on the first pitch, and tends to murder any first-pitch fastballs pitchers are stupid enough to still be throwing him. It's hard to argue with a guy who hits .320, knocks 30 homers and drives in 110 runs. Hillenbrand, however, has never approached those levels of productivity. If he had, I'm sure he wouldn't have gotten the criticism he did. It's not that Nomar's a management darling or anything, but there's no point in trying to change an approach that's clearly as successful as his.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

Why did Arizona trade Kim? While they needed a bat in the lineup. They don't have great starting pitching after Johnson and Schilling. Does Arizona think they can make a run this year, or is this for the future, maybe it saves some money although how could Kim be making.

[Guest Bosstones Fan]

Why did Arizona trade Kim? While they needed a bat in the lineup. They don't have great starting pitching after Johnson and Schilling. Does Arizona think they can make a run this year, or is this for the future, maybe it saves some money although how could Kim be making.

Arizona is going to save about $2 million this year. Next year, Kim is due for arbitration and could potentially get up to $5 million. Then in 2005, he'd be eligible for free agency.

 

Hillenbrand, on the other hand, is only making around $400,000 and isn't eligible for free agency until 2006. So it's very possible that there were some financial considerations behind the Diamonbacks' move.

[Guest alkeiper]

Vern, Arizona saves a few million dollars in the deal. They have a decent amount of pitching prospects, so the way I see it they're trading a surplus product to shore up a weekness.

[Guest Some Guy]

A single to left with a runner on second doesn't always mean a run and a walk certainly doesn't.

So maybe it just loads the bases instead. Is that a bad thing? A hitter who's not as disciplined might strike out or pop up on a pitch a smarter hitter would take -- or worse, end the inning in one swing with an at'em ball. Besides, an aggressive third-base coach, while not sending runners to certain doom, will force the left fielder to make a good throw. At many points in the game, that's an acceptable risk. A few feet up the line can mean a run, and you don't put that pressure on the left fielder unless you had men on base.

 

Shea hits about .300 with the basesloaded. OBP darling Jeremy Giambi hits considerbly less and is a less productive hitter overall.

 

QUOTE 

As I'm sure you know the left field line is 310 feet and there is a huge wall there, so left fielders play shallow...

 

Actually, from what I've seen, visiting teams' left fielders play shallower, while the Sox left fielders tend to play several paces deeper. I've noticed that a lot of balls hit off the Monster tend to be long singles if the left fielder is right there to play the carom. Boston left fielders are used to the wall and can practice on it often, so they know how to play the angles better. Visiting left fielders, IMO, compensate for the height of the wall by playing shallower than they should, which results in better chances to get an extra base from a ball off the wall.

 

Not true. Manny plays very shallow in left and many opposing teams play seeper, as if it's their park. You rob more doubles by playing shallow because you are going back to the wall play the carom, not back to the ball. The ball doesn't carom over your head and you can play it faster and get the throw into second more quickly.

 

QUOTE  QUOTE 

He's been robbed of many HRs because of that wal, as has Nomar. 

 

No way. It's 310 down the line, for chrissakes. I don't care that the wall's 37 feet hight: it's *310 feet* to hit one over the fence. As long as you elevate the ball, you're golden. It's much easier to hit a ball out there than in a place where the wall's 10 feet high and 335 feet away. Yeah, it'll take away the line-drive homer you might get somewhere else, but other parks make your 330 flyball down the line into a long out. At worst, I think it's a wash.

 

Smart hitters use the Monster to their advantage anyway, and don't try to hit everything over it. Visiting players and sluggers new to Boston see that 310 figure and start to salivate, then try to elevate everything over the monster. Hitters are more successful letting the homers fall where they may, and just drive the ball to left to capitalize on the big target for doubles.

 

Also not entirely true. Thw wall giveth and taketh away. Given Shea's HR numbers at Fenway vs. the road it's hard to argue with it taking more away from him, plus I've seen him hit a lot of screeming liners off the top part of the wall that would be out of any other park. The only HR I've seen him hit to left that would have been a fly out was an 18th inning walk off against the Tigers a few years ago. He does hit a lot of doubles at Fenway, but one knock on him is that he doesn't hit enough HRs. He'd have to dramatically change his swing to hit the ball over the Monster.

 

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That's where Shea is valuable, he hits singles the other way and hits a lot of doubles, 40 or so last year.

 

Mueller hits balls into right and the right-center field gap a lot. He also has over 20 doubles this year. He's a great hitter for a park like Fenway, which rewards people who don't have tremendous power by allowing them to hit doubles.

 

That's why you play Mueller at 3B and Shea at first and platoon Millar and Ortiz at DH.

 

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Nomar swings at the first pitch way more often than Shea and management says nothing about it... 

 

Nomar has a track record of success, also. He also rarely swings at a bad ball on the first pitch, and tends to murder any first-pitch fastballs pitchers are stupid enough to still be throwing him. It's hard to argue with a guy who hits .320, knocks 30 homers and drives in 110 runs. Hillenbrand, however, has never approached those levels of productivity. If he had, I'm sure he wouldn't have gotten the criticism he did. It's not that Nomar's a management darling or anything, but there's no point in trying to change an approach that's clearly as successful as his.

 

Again not really true. I'm sure I've watched Nomar play a lot more than you considering I watch almost every Sox game and I doubt you have NESN in Maryland. I;ve seen Nomar swing at some horrible first pitches and continue to do so. Where as Shea has learned to lay off sliders away and other trouble pitches for him. They're actually very similar hitters in that they have similar approaches and weaknesses (beign aggresive and sliders and Splitters)

[Guest Some Guy]

I don't hate this deal but I'm a little concerned about Kim's performance in Game 4 and 5 of the 2001 WS and the All Star game last year. If this trade was about winning a WS as Theo said why geta guy who blew his chances in the WS?

 

1Because its unwise to make a player evaluation based on a few bad games. Look up Kim's most similar players on baseball-reference.com. Goose Gossage is on the list. He's struck out 347 batters in 280 innings, and his ERA has been under 3.00 the last two years. Sure Hillenbrand might turn out ok, but I think Kim could be even better.

 

Theo Epstein has been gung ho about OBP and "Closer by Committee" The latter has failed miserbly and the former is overrated. Look at Giambi, "This guy is an on base machine" so says Theo maybe so but what the fuck can the guy do once he's there? Nothing, he's slower than constipated bowels and a bad baserunner, on top of that he can't hit his weight.

 

2How has the committee failed? The Red Sox are in first place. Theo simply decided to focus the Sox efforts on more important areas. Look what he got in the offseason.....

 

Todd Walker (.326/.368/.430)

Kevin Millar (.290/.346/.475)

Bill Muellar (.382/.441/.625)

David Ortiz (.273/.354/.444)

Brandon Lyon (3.28 ERA)

 

So the bullpen's not the greatest. Big deal. Lots of teams have good bullpens, but it doesn't mean a damn unless you have a lead. I'll take Theo and his .596 winning percentage anyday.

 

think we have an example of a young GM having to eat crow about "Closer by commitee" and not wanting to admit that he could have been wrong about Shea and OBP. All we heard all winter was how they were going to trade Shea because of his suspect defense and relativly low OBP. Well they solved the defense by putting him at the position he played in the minors. BTW, so any of you know that that the first time he played 3B everyday was when he made it to teh big leagues? Theo can stay on his OBP Jihad but is that mens we end up with more Giambis and no Sheas then fine, I'll stop paying attention.

 

3Hillenbrand's bat is worthless at first. At third, he's productive. At first, he's eating outs when his slot in the batting order could be filled by a much more productive hitter.

 

Baseball is not played in a stat book, the A's for all their regualr season succes haven't made it out the 1st round of the playoffs, because you can't walk your way to a WS. We've had enough regular season success, we want a WS here.

 

4This is what kill me. Your "fuck stats, we'll play Jose Offerman" front office-men tried to win a World Series for over 80 years. It didn't work. Maybe its time for a new approach.

1They weren't just a few games, they were huge games and he failed badly. I know he was only 22 in the WS and 23 at the All Star game but still. Hell Jeter is considered to be great because he has played well in the WS, relatively few games. I'm worried about hos he seems to react to big presure.

 

2So you say that closer by commitee hasn't failed and cite the offense as your reason. That makes absolutely no sense. The offense has been great. The bullpen has cost them games.

 

 

3So why would his bat be worthless at first and not at third? Both postions are historically for productive hitters and Mueller and Shea are. Millar and Ortiz at DH compensates power wise and you have a better defense.

 

 

4You're comparing an older over-the-hill poor fielding 2B to a young, ebtering his prime, improving good fielding 1B. Apples and Oranges.

[Guest alkeiper]

Both have about 40 ABs total with the bases loaded the last three years. You can't get any conclusions from that.

 

I got to watch Jeremy last year in Philly, and what I saw was a guy who fought for every pitch in every at bat. Amazing batting eye. He'll turn it around this year.

[Guest alkeiper]

1They weren't just a few games, they were huge games and he failed badly. I know he was only 22 in the WS and 23 at the All Star game but still. Hell Jeter is considered to be great because he has played well in the WS, relatively few games. I'm worried about hos he seems to react to big presure.

 

First off, I'm the first person to reject that argument for Jeter. Second, look at those games. Kim was left in way too long in game 4 (61 pitches), and was thrown back in for game 5. It escalated because he was fatigued. Besides, I'm not a big proponent of mental make-up.

 

2So you say that closer by commitee hasn't failed and cite the offense as your reason. That makes absolutely no sense. The offense has been great. The bullpen has cost them games.

 

Yes it has. There's no denying that. But the offense has won them more games then they would have won had they aquired a "proven closer" instead. Besides, there really weren't any top-notch closers available worth the money.

 

3So why would his bat be worthless at first and not at third? Both postions are historically for productive hitters and Mueller and Shea are. Millar and Ortiz at DH compensates power wise and you have a better defense.

 

Because there are better hitters around at first. First is the easiest position to play, and hence you can stick most hitters there with minimal damage to your defense. Even a Jeremy Giambi or Jack Cust works in a pinch. But imagine putting those guys at third. The reason they aren't productive at first is that the talent level of the hitters is higher.

 

4You're comparing an older over-the-hill poor fielding 2B to a young, ebtering his prime, improving good fielding 1B. Apples and Oranges.

 

Hillenbrand isn't entering his prime, he's in his prime. As for Offerman, I was simply illustrating the poor roster management of the old Red Sox regime.