Superman

[Guest DrTom]

I haven't bought a regular issue comic in 8-10 years, so my knowledge of what's currently happening is pretty limited. A friend told me recently that Superman is older in the comics now... gray hair at the temples and all that, like he were in his mid-40s. He said they'd powered him down a little as a result. I remember the Earth-2 Superman (last seen in Crisis. AFAIK) who was older and not quite as powerful, and who was more human and interesting as a result.

 

My questions are: is this the case, and if it is, when and why did they bring it about?

 

I've always thought the idea of Superman weakening as he gets older was silly, anyway. Presuming he has the same life span and stages as a human man, there's still no reason for him to lose physical capability as he ages. I like the way Luthor explained it in Kingdom Come: Kryptonite didn't work well anymore because Supes had been storing solar energy for so long, he was at the height of his invulnerability. None of his other powers seemed to suffer, either, in contrast to the Earth-2 Superman and Frank Miller's silly portrayal of Superman in The Dark Knight Strikes Again.

 

What's everyone else think of the differing portrayals of the older Superman?

[Guest Cover of Darkness]

Miller's portrayal wasn't based on age, but rather a symbol of the jignostic patriotic crap thrown at voters during the Reagan era. In that respect, it was dead-on. During the quiet moments with Bruce before the finale, Clark seems a little more like usual, but when he puts on the uniform - he's a joke. Just like Batman said at the end.

[Guest DrTom]

I'm talking about the second series, Zsasz. TDKR obviously has some Reagan backlash in it, using Superman as the symbol you mentioned. But in TDKSA, Superman is referred to several times as being weaker than before. When he helps the plane land, he says, "This used to be... so easy." The Flash says, "You're slowing down, old bean. Here, let me show you faster than a speeding bullet." Braniac refers to it twice: "Even in your dotage, you're tough," and referring to his heat vision as "Kryptonian incontinence" that has lost a lot of its power. (Lara's, of course, obliterates the Braniac body.) THAT's the portrayal I'm talking about: Superman getting weaker as he gets older, like we'd expect a human to do.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I'm talking about the second series, Zsasz. TDKR obviously has some Reagan backlash in it, using Superman as the symbol you mentioned. But in TDKSA, Superman is referred to several times as being weaker than before. When he helps the plane land, he says, "This used to be... so easy." The Flash says, "You're slowing down, old bean. Here, let me show you faster than a speeding bullet." Braniac refers to it twice: "Even in your dotage, you're tough," and referring to his heat vision as "Kryptonian incontinence" that has lost a lot of its power. (Lara's, of course, obliterates the Braniac body.) THAT's the portrayal I'm talking about: Superman getting weaker as he gets older, like we'd expect a human to do.

I never finished TDKSA out of disgust.

 

 

I actually like that idea. Despite his planet of origin, Superman is one of the most "human" characters in comic books. (This can be used for great ironic effect such as in the first Superman movie.) I think thta de powering him makes him a much better character. (It did for Wolverine when he lost the Adamantium.)

[Guest TheMadmanGreg]

Wolverine was already pretty underpowered. Against humans, he was on top of his game, but it seemed like any mutant was walking along and throwing Logan around like he was a little girl. Then, after he lost his adamantium, he couldn't even fight Sabertooth anymore without being squashed. As an X-man, he became about as useful as Jubilee. I was really glad when Apocolypse gave him the adamantium back... well, really glad until the new X-men comics started. The new ones are retarded... but that's a different thread for a different time.

[Guest DrTom]

So, does anyone know the answer to my original question?

[Guest SP-1]

Personally, I liked the KINGDOM COME portrayal the best. He was strong in mind, heart, spirit, and physically, and I can't help but smile when he makes the big return towards the beginning.

 

And the fight with Marvel is sweet.

[Guest Vyce]

My questions are: is this the case, and if it is, when and why did they bring it about?

 

I don't know, I don't read Superman comics.

 

If they have powered him down, I would imagine it being because there's pretty much two thing in the entire world that can harm him, and frankly, it kind of cuts down on the drama and tension when you know that the bad guys pretty much don't have a shot in hell of stopping Supes, because he's a fucking GOD toiling down here with us mortals.

 

You know, someone once wrote a really great editorial upon why Marvel's comic characters are so much better than those of DC comics, and I must agree. The crux of the author's argument (the author being someone whose name I have forgetten [and now that I think about it, it may or may not have been someone any of us would know as being part of the industry] ) was that while DC comics character were more iconic - resembling ideals or heralding back to the ancient myths, such as the Greeks - Marvel's characters were always infinitely better because they were flat out more HUMAN. People like Spider-Man had real problems, real personalities, real shortcomings. They could be felled with a single bullet, instead of being virtually unstopplable juggernauts of destructive force EXCEPT on the off-chance that someone had a hunk of green space rock lying around.

 

Anyway, I've gone far off track.

 

To give you a half-assed answer: making Superman LESS powerful makes sense due to the laws of entropy, which actually still have a place even in the world of comic books (although other laws of physics are bent or broken at will). If you want to go with the battery analogy - all batteries, even super-powered solar ones, eventually lose their charge, and cannot be recharged.

[Guest TheMadmanGreg]

...was that while DC comics character were more iconic - resembling ideals or heralding back to the ancient myths, such as the Greeks - Marvel's characters were always infinitely better because they were flat out more HUMAN.

Which is why Batman is the greatest superhero ever. Human, and iconic. And cool.

[Guest DrTom]

Personally, I liked the KINGDOM COME portrayal the best. He was strong in mind, heart, spirit, and physically, and I can't help but smile when he makes the big return towards the beginning.

Yeah, that return was hella well-done.

 

I like Superman in Kingdom Come, certainly more than I like him in general. I don't think he's that strong spiritually though, SP: he's very resentful toward humanity, both at the beginning and near-end of the book, and only gets talked out of something unforgiveable by the preacher. Norman McKay, btw, intermittently irritated me, and not because he was a preacher: it was obvious the author wanted to tell a story with his father as an important character. I liked him at times, but he was too sanctimonious at others. I've always liked The Spectre, though.

 

And yes, the fight with Captain Marvel was tremendous. As was the immediate aftermath of it.

[Guest JMA]

I never finished TDKSA out of disgust.

Same here. I put the book down once Green Lantern held the Earth in his hand. Now that was pure cheese. It's a shame too, DKR was such a good story. DKSA will tarnish the original for a while to come.

[Guest JMA]

Your friend has got it all wrong. As a hardcore comic fan (both of DC and Marvel) I can tell you that Clark is not getting older or being depowered. Clark is still in his thirties thanks to the asinine ten year rule (don't get me started on that). Since his death at the hands of Doomsday (a pretty crappy villain and story, IMO) and rebirth he has gotten signifigantly MORE powerful. He's not Silver Age powerful, but he's a lot stronger. He even took a dip in the sun to gain enough power to topple Imperiex (another lame story).

 

For more detailed info you can visit the DC forums at DC comics.com.

[Guest Vyce]

Personally, I liked the KINGDOM COME portrayal the best. He was strong in mind, heart, spirit, and physically, and I can't help but smile when he makes the big return towards the beginning.

Yeah, that return was hella well-done.

 

I like Superman in Kingdom Come, certainly more than I like him in general. I don't think he's that strong spiritually though, SP: he's very resentful toward humanity, both at the beginning and near-end of the book, and only gets talked out of something unforgiveable by the preacher. Norman McKay, btw, intermittently irritated me, and not because he was a preacher: it was obvious the author wanted to tell a story with his father as an important character. I liked him at times, but he was too sanctimonious at others. I've always liked The Spectre, though.

 

And yes, the fight with Captain Marvel was tremendous. As was the immediate aftermath of it.

McKay: "They won't forgive you for this, Clark. Forgive yourself."

Superman: "Who are....why are you here?"

McKay: "To bear witness. Listen to me, Clark. Of all the things you can do.....all your powers....the greatest has always been your instinctive knowledge....of right and wrong. It was a gift of your own humanity. You never had to question your choices. In any situation....any crisis....you knew what to do. But the minute you made the super more important than the man...the day you decided to turn your back on mankind...that completely cost you your instinct. That took your judgment away. Take it back."

 

 

Superman: "Years ago, I let those I swore to protect drive me away. We all did. And that was the day all of this began."

Wormwood: "We....we saw you as gods...."

Superman: "As we saw ourselves. And we were both wrong."

 

 

Kingdom Come owns.

 

There is one thing that has always disturbed me about Superman, though. It's a phenomenon that occurs a lot with adopted kids, but in a more extreme case with Superman.

 

The guy grows up on Earth. Believes he's a human. Is raised with conventional human morality. For YEARS, he is indoctrinated and bombarded with everything in the scope of human knowledge from the scholastic (science, art, etc.) to the mundane (pop culture), but the MINUTE he learns he's a Krpytonian, it's like - "Oh....well, screw that being human shit, I'm an alien! Man, I sure miss my mom and dad.....you know, the people who I knew for like a day before they shot me into the great unknown in a space crib before I was found by these two country bumpkins who have raised me with the utmost love and devotion these past 10+ years....."

 

It always struck me as unrealistic. I know, I know, it's a story about an alien dude who FLIES, and I am unable to suspend belief for this one small thing but still.......he always associated with his alien side WAY too much for a guy who was always raised a human.

[Guest WrestlingDeacon]

In my mind, Superman is a huge fan of old country music. Hank Williams, Johnny Cash, George Jones, guys like that. He's a farm boy from Kansas at heart, that's what he was raised on and I would like to see more touches like that with him.

[Guest JMA]

The guy grows up on Earth. Believes he's a human. Is raised with conventional human morality. For YEARS, he is indoctrinated and bombarded with everything in the scope of human knowledge from the scholastic (science, art, etc.) to the mundane (pop culture), but the MINUTE he learns he's a Krpytonian, it's like - "Oh....well, screw that being human shit, I'm an alien! Man, I sure miss my mom and dad.....you know, the people who I knew for like a day before they shot me into the great unknown in a space crib before I was found by these two country bumpkins who have raised me with the utmost love and devotion these past 10+ years....."

Actually, the current Superman sees himself as more Clark Kent than Kal-El. You see, after the Crisis Superman was given a reboot (and was depowered because of it). In the reboot, Krypton is a cold and sterile world. The inhabitants are very xenophobic and genetically linked to their planet (if they leave, they die). Marriages are chosen for genetic compatibility and reproduction occurs through non-sexual means. Hell, no one even touches anyone else. Once someone died on Krypton a couple was chosen and married. Then, robots would take cells from their DNA and combine them, a birthing matrix was used to hold the embryo.

 

Jor-El (Kal-El's father) was differant than other Kryptonians. He was actually in love with the wife chosen for him. Anyways, radiation from Krypton's core had caused all the elements on Krypton to fuse together. Soon the planet would explode. Jor-El was determined to save his son. He found a planet 50 light years away with a bright yellow star. FYI: Kryptonians don't need to eat. They absorb energy from stars like a plant. Krypton had a red sun. Exposure to Earth's yellow sun for an extended period of time would give a Kryptonian great powers.

 

Anyway, Jor-El attached the birthing matrix (containing the fetus of Kal-El) to a star-drive unit and sent it toward Earth. Krypton exploded soon after and a large chunk of the planet was lodged onto the ship. It's important to note that Kal-El was still a fetus here. It took the star-drive fifty years to get to Earth. It landed in Smallville, Kansas. Once it landed, Kal-El was born into Martha Kent's arms. The boy was adopted by the Kents (although everyone thought the child was the Kent's biological son).

 

Clark (Kal) was raised to be a human. He didn't develop his powers right away, it took years for him to absorb enough solar rays. Eventually he was told about the ship -although he still didn't know where he was from. It's important to note that he became Superman BEFORE he discovered his Kryptonian heritage. When he did discover it, he didn't care. He said he was born in Kansas and his parents were Martha and Jonathan Kent. He was Clark Kent, not Kal-El. He considered himself human.

 

I hope this clears up things.

Edited June 27, 2003 by JMA

[Guest JMA]

If anyone wants to learn more about the post-Crisis Supes they should check out John Byrne's "Man of Steel" mini-series. It is available in trade paper back format.

Edited June 27, 2003 by JMA

[Guest DrTom]

Byrne's "Man of Steel" miniseries is excellent, and is definitely recommended to anyone who hasn't yet read it. It's a tremendous retelling of the story of Superman, which manages to renew and reinvent him as a character, while still preserving all of the important details fans have come to know over the years.

[Guest MaskedDanger]

Superman is weaker than one would expect in TDKSA because of the nuke blast he took (full on) in Dark Knight Returns. This is mentioned several times in DKR (most noticibly by Batman in their final fight). However, he seems to be a little stronger in TDKSA than he was in DKR, so maybe some of his power is supposed to be returning.

 

Oh, and TDKSA was a good series, I don't care what anyone says. And post-Crisis Superman is intensely dull compared to his old school pre-Crisis counterpart (either slightly less powerful but more human Golden Age / Earth-2 Superman, or planet smashing, star-igniting Silver Age / Earth-1 Superman). That's why DC's been quietly slipping tiny bits of pre-Crisis continuity back into current Superman titles for years now.

 

And Bryne didn't preserve even half of Superman's important details. And what he did keep, he only "technically" preserved, as in "at least Krypton's still a planet." Byrne's reboot sucked all the magic out of the character and made him just another quarterback with laser vision and a cape.

[Guest JMA]

Oh, and TDKSA was a good series, I don't care what anyone says. And post-Crisis Superman is intensely dull compared to his old school pre-Crisis counterpart (either slightly less powerful but more human Golden Age / Earth-2 Superman, or planet smashing, star-igniting Silver Age / Earth-1 Superman). That's why DC's been quietly slipping tiny bits of pre-Crisis continuity back into current Superman titles for years now.

 

And Byrne didn't preserve even half of Superman's important details. And what he did keep, he only "technically" preserved, as in "at least Krypton's still a planet." Byrne's reboot sucked all the magic out of the character and made him just another quarterback with laser vision and a cape.

I have to disagree. TDSA was pretty lame, IMO. I also think that Byrne did a great job with the reboot. Things were going great until the Supergirl/pocket universe saga.

[Guest DrTom]

Superman is weaker than one would expect in TDKSA because of the nuke blast he took (full on) in Dark Knight Returns.

That's the only reason that's suggested, other than the references to him getting old ("Even in your dotage, you're tough."). Still, he had three years to recover from that nuclear blast, and should have been able to absorb enough rays to power himself back up sufficiently.

 

Oh, and TDKSA was a good series, I don't care what anyone says.

I have to disagree. The first book was good, but then the series went into the shitter quickly. None of the strong storytelling and character understanding that TDKR had was present. TDKSA seemed to be a way for Miller to continue his Batman story, but he peppered it with a bunch of other heroes to hide the fact that the story itself was weak. Rating the three issues, I'd give them: #1: ****, #2: **1/2, #3: 1/2*

 

And post-Crisis Superman is intensely dull compared to his old school pre-Crisis counterpart...

I like it better now that he's not as powerful anymore. There's more risk, more danger, in everything he does. No more endless forays into space, no more tossing planets around, etc. I liked the "new" Superman from the Byrne relaunch until they made him into that silly energy being, which was about the time I stopped buying comics.

 

Byrne's reboot sucked all the magic out of the character and made him just another quarterback with laser vision and a cape.

On a semi-related note, I've never been a fan of the vision powers as presented. X-Ray vision should just be the strength of Superman's eyes, not actual X-rays. I know that would allow him to see thru lead, but that's a restriction that's only important when they need it for a plot coupon, so who cares? Heat vision shouldn't be laser rays, but a wave of heat that burns everything in Supes' field of vision. It's much harder to control that way, and would probably cause him to use it less, and certainly not like some kind of ray gun. Telescopic is fine, but microscopic is starting to push it, IMO, as are the spectrum-based vision powers like he used in JLA: Tower of Babel.

 

Oh...

 

However, he seems to be a little stronger in TDKSA than he was in DKR, so maybe some of his power is supposed to be returning.

At the end of TDKR, yes. But earlier in that book, he was able to do things while remaining virtually invisible because of his super-speed, and had little trouble tossing tanks around and splitting the ocean floor wide open. It's only after the nuke that he's on a level Batman can deal with. Interestingly, in the 10th Anniversary edition, Miller gives his original draft for part 4 of TDKR. The ending was a little different: the sun started to return during the final fight in Crime Alley, closing Superman's wounds and re-energizing him. I'm glad he used the ending he did, in retrospect.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Pre-Crisis Superman had one of the worst Rogue's Galleries in the DC Universe. (Darkseid was the only one worth shit, and HE was written for the New Gods)

 

Its since been improved, its passable but I'll be damned if Supes doesn't deserve better.