WHAT THE FUCK? Seriously Joe,

[Guest Vern Gagne]

Ventura hasn't been a bad signing. He's played well. Also he's only supposed to be around until Henson is ready. But, the way he's hit in the minors who knows when that will happen.

[Guest Ghettoman]

Henson should be ready by the time Jeter retires....

[Guest Some Guy]

Gap fillers, the core of the Yankee ball club has been brought up through the farm system, and nobody likes to take note of it but the best and most consistent players came up through the farm system.

 

And oh no, they have an owner who spends more money on his team then anyone else! Someone make this guy stop caring about his ballclub! It's obvious a small market team is never going to be good again as evident with last years playoffs.

 

And I love how you generalize the entire Yankees staff as prideless monkeys driven by greed, from boston are you? There's no way even a fourth of those guys would go to a team like Detroit for as much as they make now, or even a bit more, which is impossible though because they don't have an owner who cares enough to see them do well.

 

So yeah, go ahead and blame it on bad calls, thats whats made the Yankees so succesful, oh wait, money right, yeah money, no wait, money and bad calls, because they use there money to bribes the umps right? Man your so smart....

I didn't dispute that some good players were brought up throught the system. I helped your point by naming more.

 

I also don't have a problem with signing free agents, although a $160-$180 million payroll is a bit much.

 

I have a feeling that 1/4 of the Sox will be in Detroit next year or should be. The bullpen sucks major ass. I think the majority of MLB players are driven by greed. I doubt the Yanks first offer to Jeter was for 10 $180 million, he got it bumped up or presumably he would have left for a better offer. A-Rod did, Manny did, hundreds of others have.

 

Apparently the Sox owner cares just as much as Georgie Boy as he has fielded a team that's just a good for considerably less money.

 

My problem is that George tends to overpay for guys and that skews the system and fucks over smaler clubs who can't afford or won't pay for that type of money. Has Jeter earned his contract or even come close since he signed it? If you say he has then you need to watch a little more and look at his numbers. has Giambi earned his? Probably not. Has Karsay earned his? No. So that's three guys who have been way overpaid and have skewed the salarie structure. They paid $5 mil a year for a set up man for Christ's sake.

 

I didn't say that the Yanks bribe the Umps, althoguh I wouldn't put it past Georgie to try. But there is an inherant favortism towards the Yanks. They're "The Yankees, they muct have been right, after al they've won 26 titles." SO they tend to get the benifit of the doubt. I challenge you to dispute that a number of shit calls got the Yanks way over their opponents. I think it works the same way with the Sox probably getting the benifit of the doubt over the D-Rays. Should it be that way, no.

 

BTW, you mentioned Henson who has been such a bust that even Georgie wants to cut his losses and send him to Football. But Gammons said he is hitting .281 in the last few months. Wow, .281 on AA what a signing!

[Guest Ghettoman]

I have a feeling that 1/4 of the Sox will be in Detroit next year or should be. The bullpen sucks major ass. I think the majority of MLB players are driven by greed. I doubt the Yanks first offer to Jeter was for 10 $180 million, he got it bumped up or presumably he would have left for a better offer. A-Rod did, Manny did, hundreds of others have.

 

Your pessimism isn't fact. You can doubt all you want, it isn't helping your arguement.

 

Apparently the Sox owner cares just as much as Georgie Boy as he has fielded a team that's just a good for considerably less money.

 

Dont get too ahead of yourself now, I mean according to you the Yankees are in there downfall, and right now in that downfall a half game ahead of Boston in the Al East, so is it just as good, just as bad, or just a little worse?

 

My problem is that George tends to overpay for guys and that skews the system and fucks over smaler clubs who can't afford or won't pay for that type of money. Has Jeter earned his contract or even come close since he signed it? If you say he has then you need to watch a little more and look at his numbers. has Giambi earned his? Probably not. Has Karsay earned his? No. So that's three guys who have been way overpaid and have skewed the salarie structure. They paid $5 mil a year for a set up man for Christ's sake.

 

Oh yeah man that Jeter, going and getting himself injured, how dare him hustle. Giambi had what kind of numbers last year? And considering he's so off this year and still has better numbers than some "good" players how bad is he this year?

 

Skewed the salary structure? Is every player not playing there best ball skewing the salary structure? Your talking about good players not doing there best which happens quite often in baseball, even to your precious Sox.....obviously....

 

I didn't say that the Yanks bribe the Umps, althoguh I wouldn't put it past Georgie to try. But there is an inherant favortism towards the Yanks. They're "The Yankees, they muct have been right, after al they've won 26 titles." SO they tend to get the benifit of the doubt. I challenge you to dispute that a number of shit calls got the Yanks way over their opponents. I think it works the same way with the Sox probably getting the benifit of the doubt over the D-Rays. Should it be that way, no.

 

Good god your jaded. Your talking about denying greatness in a time when baseball was completely different. Are you telling me if the refs were always fair the Yankees would have a lot less Championships? Are you serious? Do you know what kind of whiny little baby you sound like!? Hell you don't even have logic to your case, I can go ahead and say "The yankees are doing bad because there not getting good calls, because a lot of people think its bad for business if they keep winning so they do what they can". Damn I just made a better paranoid, jealous rant then you did!

 

BTW, you mentioned Henson who has been such a bust that even Georgie wants to cut his losses and send him to Football. But Gammons said he is hitting .281 in the last few months. Wow, .281 on AA what a signing!

 

Uh oh, someone's not playing up to there full potential, baseballs heading towards the apocolypse....

[Guest Anglesault]

My problem is that George tends to overpay for guys and that skews the system and fucks over smaler clubs who can't afford or won't pay for that type of money.

 

The half assed owners who either can't, or worse yet, won't spend the money are fucking the team over worse by refusing to spend fucking money or sell the team to someone who will.

 

An owner (George) who can afford to pay top dollar for his best players voluntarily not doing that so another team can become a larger threat to his team is the most absurd and bizarre thing I've ever heard. Is that what you are suggesting?

[Guest Some Guy]

I have a feeling that 1/4 of the Sox will be in Detroit next year or should be. The bullpen sucks major ass. I think the majority of MLB players are driven by greed. I doubt the Yanks first offer to Jeter was for 10 $180 million, he got it bumped up or presumably he would have left for a better offer. A-Rod did, Manny did, hundreds of others have.

 

Your pessimism isn't fact. You can doubt all you want, it isn't helping your arguement.

SO you're telling me that the majority of players aren't driven by greed? Giambi going to NY wasn't greed? Manny signing with Boston wasn't greed? A-Rod signing with Texas wasn't greed? I think you might be a little too optomistic or just so lost in your Yankke ball washing that you think they're different from any other players when it comes to greed.

 

Apparently the Sox owner cares just as much as Georgie Boy as he has fielded a team that's just a good for considerably less money.

 

Dont get too ahead of yourself now, I mean according to you the Yankees are in there downfall, and right now in that downfall a half game ahead of Boston in the Al East, so is it just as good, just as bad, or just a little worse?

 

The Yanks won 4 WS since '96 and the signs of their decline started to form in 2001, then they rebounded with a great regular season and bombed in the playoffs, they started off 18-3 and have played about .500 ball since. Their starters are old, their bullpen is bad, their offense is pretty 1 dimensional. Ask Torre what he thinks. I don't recall this conversation even being about the Sox, but they, bullpen not with satnding are on the upswing. If the pen was even decent the Sox would be a few games up on NY if NY was the same team they are now. Who knows maybe now that Roger got his win they'll go on a tear, who knows maybe now that Pedro is back and the Sox have 4 quality starters they will too.

 

My problem is that George tends to overpay for guys and that skews the system and fucks over smaler clubs who can't afford or won't pay for that type of money. Has Jeter earned his contract or even come close since he signed it? If you say he has then you need to watch a little more and look at his numbers. has Giambi earned his? Probably not. Has Karsay earned his? No. So that's three guys who have been way overpaid and have skewed the salarie structure. They paid $5 mil a year for a set up man for Christ's sake.

 

Oh yeah man that Jeter, going and getting himself injured, how dare him hustle. Giambi had what kind of numbers last year? And considering he's so off this year and still has better numbers than some "good" players how bad is he this year?

 

Skewed the salary structure? Is every player not playing there best ball skewing the salary structure? Your talking about good players not doing there best which happens quite often in baseball, even to your precious Sox.....obviously....

 

What does Jeter's injury have to do with anything? I never questioned his hustle. I question his skills. I won't deny that he is a very good player but he isn't in A-Rod or Nomar's class offensively. His numbers have been on the decline for 3 years and he's about to turn 29. Not good.

 

No, good players not playing up to skills is not messing it up, it's good players getting paid Hall of Famer salaries that are. Once again the Sox have nothign to do with this but your point is valid, their are several under performing members of the team, all but 2 are pitchers, the others are Johnny Damon and Jeremy Giambi, can you say that about the Yanks? Not honestly at least, considering Giambi, Jeter, Ventura, Weaver, Ziele, Matsui, Contreras, and much of the bullpen.

 

I didn't say that the Yanks bribe the Umps, althoguh I wouldn't put it past Georgie to try. But there is an inherant favortism towards the Yanks. They're "The Yankees, they muct have been right, after al they've won 26 titles." SO they tend to get the benifit of the doubt. I challenge you to dispute that a number of shit calls got the Yanks way over their opponents. I think it works the same way with the Sox probably getting the benifit of the doubt over the D-Rays. Should it be that way, no.

 

Good god your jaded. Your talking about denying greatness in a time when baseball was completely different. Are you telling me if the refs were always fair the Yankees would have a lot less Championships? Are you serious? Do you know what kind of whiny little baby you sound like!? Hell you don't even have logic to your case, I can go ahead and say "The yankees are doing bad because there not getting good calls, because a lot of people think its bad for business if they keep winning so they do what they can". Damn I just made a better paranoid, jealous rant then you did!

 

DO you ever watch the NBA? Their is a superstar bias witht eh refs, they let them get away with more than the lesser players, the same holds true for MLB. The Yanks are the superstars of the the game, whether I like it or not and as such they tend to get the benifit of the doubt. It happens. Greg Maddux benifited greatly from having a wider strike zone than anyone else for years, because he's Greg Maddux. It's just the way it is. I didn't say that they wouldn't have won without some of the gift calls, they probably would have but they're there. you chose to ignore them because you're a Yankees' fan.

 

BTW, you mentioned Henson who has been such a bust that even Georgie wants to cut his losses and send him to Football. But Gammons said he is hitting .281 in the last few months. Wow, .281 on AA what a signing!

 

Uh oh, someone's not playing up to there full potential, baseballs heading towards the apocolypse....

 

What the fuck is wrong with you? You're "Yankees can do no wrong" attitude is really annoying. You try to deny or cover up any bad decision they've made like you're a member of the team and not just a fan. They fucked up of the Henson signing, they've basically admitted as much. Teh Yanks aren't perfect, no one is. It might be time for you to wrap your little head around it. They fucked up, you shold admit it and move on rather than give me some foolish blabbering about the baseball apocolypse.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

I think the jury is still out on Henson. He could still develop into a good player.But so far he hasn't been worth the 4 million he signed to play Baseball. IMO..if your making that much money you should be on the major league roster.

[Guest Some Guy]

My problem is that George tends to overpay for guys and that skews the system and fucks over smaler clubs who can't afford or won't pay for that type of money.

 

The half assed owners who either can't, or worse yet, won't spend the money are fucking the team over worse by refusing to spend fucking money or sell the team to someone who will.

 

An owner (George) who can afford to pay top dollar for his best players voluntarily not doing that so another team can become a larger threat to his team is the most absurd and bizarre thing I've ever heard. Is that what you are suggesting?

No that's not what I'm saying. It' sthat he goes out and trumps other offers by tons of money. No way would Karasay have gooten a similar contract from anyone else, no way would Jeter have either (well teh Mets are pretty stupid, so I take that one back), I don't see Ventura getting $5 mil form anyone else. I don;t mind or begrudge him the money he's earned or the way he spends it. If that's what floats his boat then fine.

 

Most owners are business men and realize that they can't spend tons of money on payroll and still make a profit off the team. George can, he's the only one actually. The Sox are going to lose money again this year, so will the Mets and Dodgers. Steeinbrenner is lucky (or smart, take your pick) in many ways to have the most succesful team in sports history, which just so happens to be teh only successful team in town at this point, in a huge city. But he paid for it and can do what he likes with it.

I just wonder how far he'll go. His payroll is already tens of millions higher than the next team.

 

Just a question, if they cut their payroll by $80 mil, down to $100 or so million, and still won the WS would you be upset? If they did that and lost in the WS would you blame the players or the payroll cut?

[Guest Anglesault]

Just a question, if they cut their payroll by $80 mil, down to $100 or so million, and still won the WS would you be upset? If they did that and lost in the WS would you blame the players or the payroll cut?

Who do we lose?

[Guest Some Guy]

Doesn't matter. But all secondary players for teh sake of argument.

[Guest Ghettoman]

SO you're telling me that the majority of players aren't driven by greed? Giambi going to NY wasn't greed? Manny signing with Boston wasn't greed? A-Rod signing with Texas wasn't greed? I think you might be a little too optomistic or just so lost in your Yankke ball washing that you think they're different from any other players when it comes to greed.

 

Yeah that's what I said. Considering so much more is brought to the bargaining table then just money, I think it's a little retarded to say the majority of high paid ball players play for greed. Then again if you take pessimism over optimism with a side of logic, thats your problem.

 

The Yanks won 4 WS since '96 and the signs of their decline started to form in 2001, then they rebounded with a great regular season and bombed in the playoffs, they started off 18-3 and have played about .500 ball since. Their starters are old, their bullpen is bad, their offense is pretty 1 dimensional. Ask Torre what he thinks. I don't recall this conversation even being about the Sox, but they, bullpen not with satnding are on the upswing. If the pen was even decent the Sox would be a few games up on NY if NY was the same team they are now. Who knows maybe now that Roger got his win they'll go on a tear, who knows maybe now that Pedro is back and the Sox have 4 quality starters they will too.

 

Your relating decline with not winning a championship. Has every team thats won a championship one year, and not the next been in it's "demise"? If thats the case how long have the sox been declining? We have to have some point of comparison, unless of course you hold certain biases against the Yankees, but that can't be true....

 

Upswing? How can you be on an upswing when your behind a team thats been in decline for three years!? That just doesn't make sense now does it.

 

Your best examples of the Yankees demise have been a season where they lost the World Series at the last possible chance, a season where they were the best team in baseball and only lost in the playoffs to the world series champions, and the fact that Jeter and Rivera aren't what they used to be.

 

Jeter not what he used to be? What did he do again in 5 games in the postseason last year? I don't see any decline from Mr November.

 

What does Jeter's injury have to do with anything? I never questioned his hustle. I question his skills. I won't deny that he is a very good player but he isn't in A-Rod or Nomar's class offensively. His numbers have been on the decline for 3 years and he's about to turn 29. Not good.

 

Um, you were getting on him for his stats this year, which would imply skill, yet you forget the fact that he's yet to play 20 games all year. And your right he's not in there class offensively, he actually contributes when it's needed. Garci and A-rod can sock 70 a year if they can't do a damn thing when it comes time to who cares? I'll take Jeter over both any day, but then again I prefer to see teams win.

 

No, good players not playing up to skills is not messing it up, it's good players getting paid Hall of Famer salaries that are. Once again the Sox have nothign to do with this but your point is valid, their are several under performing members of the team, all but 2 are pitchers, the others are Johnny Damon and Jeremy Giambi, can you say that about the Yanks? Not honestly at least, considering Giambi, Jeter, Ventura, Weaver, Ziele, Matsui, Contreras, and much of the bullpen.

 

Hahaha, let me guess for them to be worth how much there paid they should be hitting 50 homeruns a year each right? I mean it's not like Matsui's deliverd, what he's already in his first year and he's not blasting 50 home runs!? How dare he take time to develope, let alone be a great defensive presence all while he improves on his hitting. Zeile had a slump to start the season and has been doing his job better than half of your sox ever since. Giambi's still producing good numbers, and no one disputes he's not playing up to his potential, Jeter's fresh off injury and he's still playing good ball. Tell me aside from Contreras and Weaver, who haven't been horrible, just haven't been good, how is Ventura and much of the bullpen not playing well considering one of the only two problems in our bullpen was gone and Ventura's never been expected to do anything more than hit in the clutch and play ok defense, which he does?

 

DO you ever watch the NBA? Their is a superstar bias witht eh refs, they let them get away with more than the lesser players, the same holds true for MLB. The Yanks are the superstars of the the game, whether I like it or not and as such they tend to get the benifit of the doubt. It happens. Greg Maddux benifited greatly from having a wider strike zone than anyone else for years, because he's Greg Maddux. It's just the way it is. I didn't say that they wouldn't have won without some of the gift calls, they probably would have but they're there. you chose to ignore them because you're a Yankees' fan.

 

Ah but your missing major logic here, many, many people considering it a good thing for the sport to see the Yankees lose, so if it were all about money and progressing the sport, the Yankees would be on the other end of those bad calls.

 

I choose to ignore bad calls because they happen, and I don't need them to make a case why my team has been cheated for a hundred years, whiner.

 

What the fuck is wrong with you? You're "Yankees can do no wrong" attitude is really annoying. You try to deny or cover up any bad decision they've made like you're a member of the team and not just a fan. They fucked up of the Henson signing, they've basically admitted as much. Teh Yanks aren't perfect, no one is. It might be time for you to wrap your little head around it. They fucked up, you shold admit it and move on rather than give me some foolish blabbering about the baseball apocolypse.

 

Yankees can do no wrong!? Coming from the man who's yet to say one positive thing about a team well above 500 and in first place in there division!?

 

I never said the Yankees were perfect, you said they were falling apart, coming to there end, in there demise. I said they weren't and why, so you jumped all over yourself trying to pin me as some fanboy when your on the other end of the spectrum just to a much higher degree. Bad decision signing Henson? Not like I implied that by joking he should be ready when Jeters done.

 

Admit it and move on!? Move on from what, your senseless bashing of a team you'd be quicker to say cheated there way or bought there way to 26 championships over a hundred years when your refering to baseball a century ago as if it were exactly the same as it is now!? I think I will.....

[Guest Kingpk]

SO you're telling me that the majority of players aren't driven by greed? Giambi going to NY wasn't greed? Manny signing with Boston wasn't greed? A-Rod signing with Texas wasn't greed? I think you might be a little too optomistic or just so lost in your Yankke ball washing that you think they're different from any other players when it comes to greed.

 

Yeah that's what I said. Considering so much more is brought to the bargaining table then just money, I think it's a little retarded to say the majority of high paid ball players play for greed. Then again if you take pessimism over optimism with a side of logic, thats your problem.

 

Alex Rodriguez.

 

The worst case of "greed over titles". He must REALLY like playing in 100 degree temperatures (115 on the field) for a perennial last place team, instead of a contender like Seattle, don't he?

 

And I'd be a LITTLE worried if my team started off on such a roll and are something like 5 games under .500 and playing very poorly since.

[Guest Ghettoman]

Then you don't have faith in there ability now do you.

 

 

And I never said A-rod wasn't greedy(although I think he's better by his agent), I was just implying it's a little foolish to think every players motivated by greed, even the majority, when it's well known there are so many other factors than money when it comes to signing with a team.

[Guest alkeiper]

Ah, A-Rod. He took the best offer? How is that greed? Forget the money. Its a 7 year guaranteed contract. Athletes don't last forever. That security is very important to a player. Also, give the Rangers time. They've got some damned good players in their farm system. Once they clear out the dead weight on their contracts, they'll be in good shape.

[Guest Some Guy]

SO you're telling me that the majority of players aren't driven by greed? Giambi going to NY wasn't greed? Manny signing with Boston wasn't greed? A-Rod signing with Texas wasn't greed? I think you might be a little too optomistic or just so lost in your Yankke ball washing that you think they're different from any other players when it comes to greed.

 

Yeah that's what I said. Considering so much more is brought to the bargaining table then just money, I think it's a little retarded to say the majority of high paid ball players play for greed. Then again if you take pessimism over optimism with a side of logic, thats your problem.

 

The Yanks won 4 WS since '96 and the signs of their decline started to form in 2001, then they rebounded with a great regular season and bombed in the playoffs, they started off 18-3 and have played about .500 ball since. Their starters are old, their bullpen is bad, their offense is pretty 1 dimensional. Ask Torre what he thinks. I don't recall this conversation even being about the Sox, but they, bullpen not with satnding are on the upswing. If the pen was even decent the Sox would be a few games up on NY if NY was the same team they are now. Who knows maybe now that Roger got his win they'll go on a tear, who knows maybe now that Pedro is back and the Sox have 4 quality starters they will too.

 

Your relating decline with not winning a championship. Has every team thats won a championship one year, and not the next been in it's "demise"? If thats the case how long have the sox been declining? We have to have some point of comparison, unless of course you hold certain biases against the Yankees, but that can't be true....

 

Upswing? How can you be on an upswing when your behind a team thats been in decline for three years!? That just doesn't make sense now does it.

 

Your best examples of the Yankees demise have been a season where they lost the World Series at the last possible chance, a season where they were the best team in baseball and only lost in the playoffs to the world series champions, and the fact that Jeter and Rivera aren't what they used to be.

 

Jeter not what he used to be? What did he do again in 5 games in the postseason last year? I don't see any decline from Mr November.

 

What does Jeter's injury have to do with anything? I never questioned his hustle. I question his skills. I won't deny that he is a very good player but he isn't in A-Rod or Nomar's class offensively. His numbers have been on the decline for 3 years and he's about to turn 29. Not good.

 

Um, you were getting on him for his stats this year, which would imply skill, yet you forget the fact that he's yet to play 20 games all year. And your right he's not in there class offensively, he actually contributes when it's needed. Garci and A-rod can sock 70 a year if they can't do a damn thing when it comes time to who cares? I'll take Jeter over both any day, but then again I prefer to see teams win.

 

No, good players not playing up to skills is not messing it up, it's good players getting paid Hall of Famer salaries that are. Once again the Sox have nothign to do with this but your point is valid, their are several under performing members of the team, all but 2 are pitchers, the others are Johnny Damon and Jeremy Giambi, can you say that about the Yanks? Not honestly at least, considering Giambi, Jeter, Ventura, Weaver, Ziele, Matsui, Contreras, and much of the bullpen.

 

Hahaha, let me guess for them to be worth how much there paid they should be hitting 50 homeruns a year each right? I mean it's not like Matsui's deliverd, what he's already in his first year and he's not blasting 50 home runs!? How dare he take time to develope, let alone be a great defensive presence all while he improves on his hitting. Zeile had a slump to start the season and has been doing his job better than half of your sox ever since. Giambi's still producing good numbers, and no one disputes he's not playing up to his potential, Jeter's fresh off injury and he's still playing good ball. Tell me aside from Contreras and Weaver, who haven't been horrible, just haven't been good, how is Ventura and much of the bullpen not playing well considering one of the only two problems in our bullpen was gone and Ventura's never been expected to do anything more than hit in the clutch and play ok defense, which he does?

 

DO you ever watch the NBA? Their is a superstar bias witht eh refs, they let them get away with more than the lesser players, the same holds true for MLB. The Yanks are the superstars of the the game, whether I like it or not and as such they tend to get the benifit of the doubt. It happens. Greg Maddux benifited greatly from having a wider strike zone than anyone else for years, because he's Greg Maddux. It's just the way it is. I didn't say that they wouldn't have won without some of the gift calls, they probably would have but they're there. you chose to ignore them because you're a Yankees' fan.

 

Ah but your missing major logic here, many, many people considering it a good thing for the sport to see the Yankees lose, so if it were all about money and progressing the sport, the Yankees would be on the other end of those bad calls.

 

I choose to ignore bad calls because they happen, and I don't need them to make a case why my team has been cheated for a hundred years, whiner.

 

What the fuck is wrong with you? You're "Yankees can do no wrong" attitude is really annoying. You try to deny or cover up any bad decision they've made like you're a member of the team and not just a fan. They fucked up of the Henson signing, they've basically admitted as much. Teh Yanks aren't perfect, no one is. It might be time for you to wrap your little head around it. They fucked up, you shold admit it and move on rather than give me some foolish blabbering about the baseball apocolypse.

 

Yankees can do no wrong!? Coming from the man who's yet to say one positive thing about a team well above 500 and in first place in there division!?

 

I never said the Yankees were perfect, you said they were falling apart, coming to there end, in there demise. I said they weren't and why, so you jumped all over yourself trying to pin me as some fanboy when your on the other end of the spectrum just to a much higher degree. Bad decision signing Henson? Not like I implied that by joking he should be ready when Jeters done.

 

Admit it and move on!? Move on from what, your senseless bashing of a team you'd be quicker to say cheated there way or bought there way to 26 championships over a hundred years when your refering to baseball a century ago as if it were exactly the same as it is now!? I think I will.....

OK, so a player leaving the team that drafted and nutured him and was set to be great to go to a team that has been known for good offense and no pitching for years when teh team offered him pretty good money isn't greed? He could be on a winner right now and making say $14 million a year, instead he's on a loser and making $25 million.

 

I'm not goingto bother quoting every thing so I'll just respond in order. The owner of the New York Yankees, George Steinbrenner relates not winning a WS to failiure. Not me, they are held to a higher standard by their owner than any other team. They won 3 in a row and 4 out of 5 and haven't won in the last 2 years. they got beat by Arizona, when "Mr. November" hit poorly and got killed by the Angels in the playoffs. They have played poor ball for a team of their caliber and the manager and owner are pretty pissed about it. I'd say that is a sign of a decline, not demise. I never said they were at their demise.

 

How can the Sox be on an upswing? Let's see they have a much better club than the last few years and once the pitchign gets sorted out they'll be in the top 4 teams in the league and possibly win the division, if the Yanks continue to play as they have over the last month. I know they've won 5 in a row since the no-hitter, BTW.

 

Let's see Nomar has been in the playoffs twice, ALDS in 98, ALDS and ALCS in 99 and has batted well over .400 with 4 or 5 HRs and a bunch of RBI (oh yeah he has an injured wrist for the 99 playoffs too, the same one that caused him to miss vitually a whole season in 2001). He's hit countless game winning hits, is batting .330 with 12 triples and over 40 RBI, Jeter can't holda candle to Nomar's bat. And the only reason that Jeter gets the cute little nickname is because he's been there more. there is no reason to believe that is given the oppurtunity that Nomar wouldn't have even better offensive numbers than Jeter in playoffs as well.

 

I wasn't reall ytalking about this year with Jeter because I know he's hurt. Go look at his numbers form teh last few years and tell me that there hasn't been a sharp decline since his '99 career year.

 

Matsui is getting paid $8 million this year, he went form 50 HRs in Japan to hitting the most ground balls in the majors this year. he is a good outfielder though and rakes breaking balls, too bad he can't hit a two-seam fastball anywhere but 2B or SS.

 

Name two Red Sox player that Zeile has out played. Gimabi is the only one. If you honestly thingk he has outproduced have of teh Sox then you should stop now, go watch some games and look at some numbers so that you won't continue to argue out of Yankee fan boy ignorance.

 

OK, I haev to quote this next one because it's too good.

 

What I wrote:

 

DO you ever watch the NBA? Their is a superstar bias witht eh refs, they let them get away with more than the lesser players, the same holds true for MLB. The Yanks are the superstars of the the game, whether I like it or not and as such they tend to get the benifit of the doubt. It happens. Greg Maddux benifited greatly from having a wider strike zone than anyone else for years, because he's Greg Maddux. It's just the way it is. I didn't say that they wouldn't have won without some of the gift calls, they probably would have but they're there. you chose to ignore them because you're a Yankees' fan.

 

 

This kid's reply:

 

Ah but your missing major logic here, many, many people considering it a good thing for the sport to see the Yankees lose, so if it were all about money and progressing the sport, the Yankees would be on the other end of those bad calls.

 

I choose to ignore bad calls because they happen, and I don't need them to make a case why my team has been cheated for a hundred years, whiner.

 

What the fuck does the fact that many people think it's good for the Yanks to lose have to do with anything? The umpires make calls, not "many people". My contention is that the the umpires believe that through theri history the Yanks have "earned" the benifit of the doubt on calls, just as most of them have decided that Maddux has earned an extra few inches on the outside corner or that Jordon earned the right to take an extra step or two withotu being called for traveling. So yo didn't even reply to my post you just spouted off a bunch of nonsense.

 

I didn't say that bad calls were teh reason my team has been "cheated" out a WS since 1918, now was I whining about it. The Sox haven't won because they haven't been the best team and they've had a lot of bad breaks, Bucky Dent's HR, Buckner's error, etc... Shit happens, life goes on and they'll win one of these years if they don't I'll still be able die a happy and content man if they do I'll be very happy and probably rub it into a bunch of yankees fan's faces.

 

Once again, I sadi tehy're were signs of a decline. I never said they were done or that it couldn't be fixed.

 

You've admitted that the Yanks have made one mistake in the Henson signing, if thsi were a thread abotu teh Red Sox, I would run a laudry list of mistakes the Sox have made. I can actually look at my team objectively and admit it when they fuck up, you obviously can't.

 

Admit it and move on!? Move on from what, your senseless bashing of a team you'd be quicker to say cheated there way or bought there way to 26 championships over a hundred years when your refering to baseball a century ago as if it were exactly the same as it is now!? I think I will.....

 

I haven't senslessly bashed the Yanks once in this thread. Do you see me saying "Yankees Suck and Jeter Swallows" or anything like that? No, because the Yanks don't suck and as far as I know Jeter doesn't swallow. I have been perhaps overly critical of the team because I hate them but it certainly hasn't been sensless bashing. I also never said that they bought one championship let alone all 26 of them. I mentioned their very high payroll and questioned how they spend some of their money and also said that I don't care that Geargie does that and I don't begrudge him fo doing it or his ability to do it. This is America, a capitalist society and that's the way life is.

 

I haven't refered to baseball froma century agao other than to say it was 1918 when teh Sox last won a WS, which you brought up.

 

Why don't you try arguing points, rather than putting words in my mouth in a poor attempt to make me look stupid?

 

As much as I hate the Yankees i give them credit where it's deserved and critise them where I see the oppurtunity. I'm sure I critise more than I compliment them, but that's to be expected from anyone who doesn't like a given team.

[Guest Ghettoman]

OK, so a player leaving the team that drafted and nutured him and was set to be great to go to a team that has been known for good offense and no pitching for years when teh team offered him pretty good money isn't greed? He could be on a winner right now and making say $14 million a year, instead he's on a loser and making $25 million.

 

Job security, greed, conditions, location, possibly more greed. I don't even entirely disagree with you on Arod so whats the point?

 

I'm not goingto bother quoting every thing so I'll just respond in order. The owner of the New York Yankees, George Steinbrenner relates not winning a WS to failiure. Not me, they are held to a higher standard by their owner than any other team. They won 3 in a row and 4 out of 5 and haven't won in the last 2 years. they got beat by Arizona, when "Mr. November" hit poorly and got killed by the Angels in the playoffs. They have played poor ball for a team of their caliber and the manager and owner are pretty pissed about it. I'd say that is a sign of a decline, not demise. I never said they were at their demise.

 

Not winning a world series is failing, for that season. If your goal at the start of every season isn't to win a World Series ring then why play? But that doesn't mean he acts as if the apocolypse is upon us, certainly not the way you make it sound. Why are they held to a higher standard!? Because there the best team in baseball, there the best franchise in the history of sports, when you play for the Yankees, your only standard better be winning. Of course I can't expect you to understand that....

 

Decline can't be used when there leading there division, there accomplishing all they should at this point, and the fact that there not entirely on top of there game just goes to show how good of the team they really are. Try discrediting them for something that happens on the field, it makes your arguement sound less whiny.

 

How can the Sox be on an upswing? Let's see they have a much better club than the last few years and once the pitchign gets sorted out they'll be in the top 4 teams in the league and possibly win the division, if the Yanks continue to play as they have over the last month. I know they've won 5 in a row since the no-hitter, BTW.

 

But come on, all those years back when they won it all, that set the standard, they must be in decline since they haven't won since right? When's and if's don't make a club on the upswing, good ball playing does. And BTW, I think that says something.

 

Let's see Nomar has been in the playoffs twice, ALDS in 98, ALDS and ALCS in 99 and has batted well over .400 with 4 or 5 HRs and a bunch of RBI (oh yeah he has an injured wrist for the 99 playoffs too, the same one that caused him to miss vitually a whole season in 2001). He's hit countless game winning hits, is batting .330 with 12 triples and over 40 RBI, Jeter can't holda candle to Nomar's bat. And the only reason that Jeter gets the cute little nickname is because he's been there more. there is no reason to believe that is given the oppurtunity that Nomar wouldn't have even better offensive numbers than Jeter in playoffs as well.

 

Haha, first off lets get downt to the real numbers:

 

Jeter's career post-season hits: 101(30 in WS play)

 

Batting Average: .314

 

On Base Percentage: .381

 

Slugging %: 469

 

Nomars played about a fifth the games Jeter has, his stats are equal if not lesser when not given the benefit of the doubt. If you'd pick possibility over reliabity then yeah, Nomars the better one to go to. Thats not too bright though is it....

 

Jeter has that "cute little nickname" because he's undoubtedly the most prolific post-season hitter in the game today. Go ahead and debate the "would be's", the "is" and "are"'s happen to be undisputable.

 

 

Can't hold a candle to Nomars bat!? That statement alone takes away the merit of your arguement as countless professionals debate over who's better. To put such clear definition between there abilities is just stupid and fanboyish.

 

I wasn't reall ytalking about this year with Jeter because I know he's hurt. Go look at his numbers form teh last few years and tell me that there hasn't been a sharp decline since his '99 career year.

 

Oh no, he's stop blasting home runs, he's still a damn good hitter and a great defensive presence, and his abilities in the post season are unquestionable. And yeah, you can say sharp decline if you expect him to bat .340 consistently over his career, coming off his best two seasons ever though I guess it would be just as fair to say there was a sharp decline from his 96 season in 97, and a sharp decline when he hit damn near .350 and only .339 the next season. I guess careers just decline and come back like that huh....What happens when he ends the season around 315, does that mean the decline is over?

 

Matsui is getting paid $8 million this year, he went form 50 HRs in Japan to hitting the most ground balls in the majors this year. he is a good outfielder though and rakes breaking balls, too bad he can't hit a two-seam fastball anywhere but 2B or SS.

 

FIRST YEAR IN THE MLB. Grasp the term Rookie, then get to know Rookie of the Year, thats what your gonna be calling him soon. His numbers for someone in there first year are astounding, and over the last ten or 11 games or so there's maybe ONE or TWO better players in the entire league. Guess he can just work around the old two seamer huh?...

 

Name two Red Sox player that Zeile has out played. Gimabi is the only one. If you honestly thingk he has outproduced have of teh Sox then you should stop now, go watch some games and look at some numbers so that you won't continue to argue out of Yankee fan boy ignorance.

 

Mueller, Giambi, Ortiz, arguably Hillenbrand.

 

What the fuck does the fact that many people think it's good for the Yanks to lose have to do with anything? The umpires make calls, not "many people". My contention is that the the umpires believe that through theri history the Yanks have "earned" the benifit of the doubt on calls, just as most of them have decided that Maddux has earned an extra few inches on the outside corner or that Jordon earned the right to take an extra step or two withotu being called for traveling. So yo didn't even reply to my post you just spouted off a bunch of nonsense.

 

The only logical reason to purposely make bad calls would be higher-up influence which comes from money, or money, I'm not even gonna dwelve into your "earning it " conspiracy yet.... Now when its well known many feel the Yankees winning is bad for business, why would calls go in favor of the Yanks when there possibly bringing down pay checks?

 

And hell, if it's about 'earning' it how come they didn't give the Cards a thousand good calls after they had that rough spell? I mean losing team mates and icons of your franchise certainly earns them something right? Or wait, don't you think the Red Sox have earned a lot of good calls in there favor since they've been down on there luck for so long? I mean isn't the life of hard-knocks the most earning you can do?

 

Jordan got away with so much traveling because the refs were too busy watching what he would do with the ball, but thats another story of incompitence.

 

The Sox haven't won because they haven't been the best team and they've had a lot of bad breaks, Bucky Dent's HR, Buckner's error, etc... Shit happens, life goes on and they'll win one of these years if they don't I'll still be able die a happy and content man if they do I'll be very happy and probably rub it into a bunch of yankees fan's faces.

 

So what is it more, the bad breaks or the having a bad team? Come on, don't be afraid to show your bias, I know it's there. The sox haven't won because the sox haven't won, simple as that. Trivializing it with "bad breaks" is just whining.

 

I haven't senslessly bashed the Yanks once in this thread. Do you see me saying "Yankees Suck and Jeter Swallows" or anything like that? No, because the Yanks don't suck and as far as I know Jeter doesn't swallow. I have been perhaps overly critical of the team because I hate them but it certainly hasn't been sensless bashing. I also never said that they bought one championship let alone all 26 of them. I mentioned their very high payroll and questioned how they spend some of their money and also said that I don't care that Geargie does that and I don't begrudge him fo doing it or his ability to do it. This is America, a capitalist society and that's the way life is.

 

"Jeter can hold a candle to nomars bat" "because I hate them" Whatever you want to call that I call it senseless bashing, or at least the cause of.

 

And if it's all hunky dorry why are you complaining so much? You talk about payroll and overblown contracts, and then your saying it's a free country and you don't hold anything against him!? Come on...

 

I haven't refered to baseball froma century agao other than to say it was 1918 when teh Sox last won a WS, which you brought up.

 

Why don't you try arguing points, rather than putting words in my mouth in a poor attempt to make me look stupid?

 

I'd say talking about the inner workings of baseball from decades ago as if it were just like today is what I was getting at, maybe if you read my posts twice you'll understand the difference between logic and putting words in your mouth.

 

As much as I hate the Yankees i give them credit where it's deserved and critise them where I see the oppurtunity. I'm sure I critise more than I compliment them, but that's to be expected from anyone who doesn't like a given team.

 

And yet you have no sensible reason not to like them other then "they win a lot and your team don't". Where have you given credit where credit is due!? Calling them all "ok"? I wouldn't call that credit.

[Guest alkeiper]

FIRST YEAR IN THE MLB. Grasp the term Rookie, then get to know Rookie of the Year, thats what your gonna be calling him soon. His numbers for someone in there first year are astounding, and over the last ten or 11 games or so there's maybe ONE or TWO better players in the entire league. Guess he can just work around the old two seamer huh?...

 

Gotta nip this one. Its not MLB Experience that matters, its age. Matsui is 29. He's not your average rookie.

[Guest Ghettoman]

First year in the MLB, japanese baseball is a completely different animal then the MLB. To say it doesn't matter because he's older is unfair.

[Guest alkeiper]

True, but Ichiro chewed up the league his first time out. And guys come up from AAA and do well in the majors, and I would think that Japan is at least more challenging than AAA.

[Guest DrTom]

 

Name two Red Sox player that Zeile has out played. Gimabi is the only one. If you honestly thingk he has outproduced have of teh Sox then you should stop now, go watch some games and look at some numbers so that you won't continue to argue out of Yankee fan boy ignorance.

 

 

Mueller, Giambi, Ortiz, arguably Hillenbrand.

You must not have looked at many numbers there. Zeile is barely hitting above the Mendoza line this year. There is absolutely NO WAY he's outperforming Bill Mueller, who's hitting over .340 and has a .400 OBP. With a .206 average, it's hard to say Zeile has outplayed anyone except Giambi, since he's been miserable and shitty all year for Boston.

 

Before you accuse me of bias one way or another, I'm completely indifferent to the whole Yankees-Red Sox thing.

[Guest Ghettoman]

Better average, thats about it. Only four homeruns, 25 rbi's, Zeiles got 6 and 20, his have been more clutch. If you wanna give it to him for average go ahead, being more productive in there roll I say Zeile.

[Guest alkeiper]

Ho. Ly. Shit. I never thought I'd see the day when a .206 hitter beat a .337 hitter because of "clutch hitting." Not only does Mueller have 100 points of batting average on Zeile, but he has 100 points of OBP (.394 to .282), and almost 150 points of slugging (.538 to .382). The HR and RBI are similar, but that's it. Look at doubles. Mueller has 24, Zeile has 5.

 

You know what though? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe Zeile is a better clutch hitter. Lets take a look at his numbers, shall we?

 

With runners on, he hits .197. Not good. Worse than his season total. Still, that's not necessarily clutch. Maybe he hits better when the runners are in scoring position.

 

With runners in scoring position, he hits .176. Still not very good. In fact, downright awful. Well, maybe he hits better when the bases are juiced.

 

With bases loaded, he hits .167. Hmm. Well, its only 6 at bats, so it could just be a fluke. Hmm, maybe I'm not thinking clearly. Hitting clutch isn't about baserunners, its about hitting late in the game.

 

Zeile from the 7th inning on hits .115. Ouch. With a .135[/b slugging percentage. Ah, but sometimes the Yankees have the game well in hand, and they let up. So maybe Zeile hits better when the game is close and late.....

 

In close and late situations, Zeile is hitting .048. 1-21, with a single and a walk. In other words, late in close games, Zeile has made an out 20 out of 22 times. Clutch hitting my ass.

 

Is Zeile more productive in his roll? Well if his roll is to absolutely suck, then yes he is.

[Guest nl5xsk1]

Oh, well, maybe Zeile is just a more liked guy in the clubhouse ... there's got to be something now that actual stats have been included. (that sound you hear is Ghettoman grasping for straws)

[Guest treble charged]

Zeile is a cooler name.

[Guest Ghettoman]

Yes it is.

 

And if you take away his slump at the start of the season the comparisons there, but I'll give it to ya.

[Guest DrTom]

Better average, thats about it. Only four homeruns, 25 rbi's, Zeiles got 6 and 20, his have been more clutch. If you wanna give it to him for average go ahead, being more productive in there roll I say Zeile.

For someone who cast a blight on power numbers when talking about Ichiro, you seem to like them now. What happened to having nine guys who can put the ball in play a lot? Mueller has 130 points of BA on Zeile, over 100 points of OBP, and has a career average over .290. The only thing Zeile has every done better is hit for power, which you weren't too interested in in the Ichiro thread.

 

Mueller, btw, can play every infield position and still deliver good defense. He's been far better in his role than Zeile, and because of that, has seen his role expanded. If Zeile is excelling in his role, then his role must be making Robin Ventura (who's having a legit good year) look like a future Hall of Famer.

[Guest Some Guy]

BTW, Ortiz is batting over .300 now after a very slow start, Hillenbrand was like 5th in the AL in RBI and he's not on the Red Sox any more, and Mueller's defense is superior to Zeile's. Ghettoman, in another post I told you that you should actually watch and learn about things before you spout off. I think this whole Todd Zeille has out-produced 1/2 the Red Sox shit has proved you are totally ignorant about the game and nothing more than a typical Yankee fan boy. Zeille has barely outproduced the worst hitter on the Red Sox, he has just nipped 1/13 of the Sox, but because he's a Yankee in your mind he must be clutch or bring some other intangible to make an aging, over-the-hill player better than 1/2 of those lowly Red Sox, who by the way are oout producing the Yanks in almost every offensive catergory except for HRs and maybe one or two others.

 

I looked it up. The Yanks have more HRs (104-83), more BB (308-252), more SOs (463-378), and more SBs (46-37). So that's 3 positives and 1 negative offensive category they have over the Sox. Many of the other categories aren't even that close that the Sox lead in.