News from the observer

[Guest The Masked Yodeler]

Now I think Masked Yodeller said it best. He suddenly became undisputed champion and people were like what the hell. I mean I can't remember exactly, but didn't Austin thrash him on television during a match on RAW before Vengence? Jericho was looking like a bitch before he won the title. I agree with the poster who said Jericho was NEVER mega-over. Best buy's argument is pretty sound.

As much as I like it when people agree with me, I think that your misunderstanding what I'm saying.

 

Jericho wasn't over enough through no fault of his own.  He was as over as a heel as his charcter would allow him.  Since his character was portrayed as an incompetent boob that the fans could and should look down on as a fraudulent champion, that's what the fans did.  If he had won some matches clean, and been portrayed as an asshole who the fans should hate, but an asshole that is a *credible* champion, he would have gotten tons more heat, and his reign wouldn't have been the disaster that it was.

 

This goes the same for Angle's first heel run with the title.  He had the same problems as Jericho.

[Guest Mystery Eskimo]

Jericho was badly booked and made Stephanie's bitch. He not only didn't look strong, he looked pathetic. The Rock feud had a ton of heat, why couldn't they just have followed that pattern with HHH? Well, Stephanie had to be involved, didn't she.

 

As someone earlier in this thread said, the wrestlemania match wasn't Jericho/HHH, it was Steph/HHH.

[Guest]

I have a big problem when they announce them as Stephanie Mcmahon and Chris Jericho, like he's some after thought. It's just really sad. Nobody cared about triple h after the first 3 months of his world title Then he got married to the bosses daughter, part of the "McMahon Helmsley era" Every opening 20 minute interview, Mauled every babyface with a sledgehammer, had Dx as his personal bitches, Got a 100,000 dollar bus called the DX express, Became the first heel to win the main event at wrestlemania, and beat Cactus Jack twice it was THEN that HHH got over.

 

All Jericho got was a fluke win over Rakishi, and getting stephanie hand lotion. Oh yeah and walking Lucy.

 

And then HHH goes on "Off the Record" and says Jericho is missing something. The guy makes me sick. If Jericho had 1/10 of the push HHH had he'd be the biggest star right now.

[Guest]

Oh yeah HHH's "accomplishments" were in no particular order

[Guest mastermind]

As much as I like it when people agree with me, I think that your misunderstanding what I'm saying. Jericho wasn't over enough through no fault of his own.  He was as over as a heel as his charcter would allow him.

I know that's what you meant as Jericho was booked like a fluke before Vengence with his win over Rock. The storyline before was actually good about Jericho not winning the big one and then beating Rock. The problem is he wasn't mega-over before the push as he was just "there" or had any reason for the fans to take him seriously(more the latter than anything else). He was damaged long before last fall. I think he was going somewhere with the I-C title when he was feuding with Benoit and had that classic ladder match. He was over, but still kind of proving himself as a top challenger for main eventers and casual fans.

 

Then as soon as that was happening guess what? I think people forgot he got squashed the week after Mania last year to guess who? TRIPLE H. I can't agree with the wwf's thoughts on this situation when they messed up Jericho as a jobbing boy and then expect all of a sudden for fans to take him seriously. I even forgot his match with Maven. I understand it COULD have been the storyline that Maven wasn't eliminated from the Rumble and could be given a match, but that wasn't implied. It was a simple non-title match I think. Anyways, more ammo showing they made Jericho look like a champion of jobbers.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Look at that.

 

The Hulkster and I come to an understanding and make peace...and Hogan Made Wrestling comes in and attacks me anyway.

 

Strike two.

 

The next time you decide to just jump on me unprovoked there will be consequences that are...quite frankly...out of my hands.

 

That's called flaming.

 

And you will get banned for it.

 

Just a warning.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

TheHulkster, I would basically just ignore most of BPS's childish insults. If you've spent any time here you will quickly come to the conclusion he's just some dork with no life who tries to act like he "runs" this board, as if he has some sort of standing here because he wastes a lot of time posting. This is obvious from the fact that because I don't drink his "RVD rulz HHH sux" kool-aid, he now starts throwing my name into topics where I haven't even replied. In fact, I'm sure you'll find soon that he just replies to your posts by bashing Hogan rather than actually trying to argue what you are saying.

I almost get the feeling that hogan made wrestling doesn't like bps21.

 

so bps is a loser because he spends alot of time here? well then what about someone who takes every chance he gets to take pot shots at him? and besides bps21 makes intelligant posts normally (nobody is always perfect) can you say the same?

 

hell frankly your name Hogan made Wrestling is enough to make me severly doubt your sanity.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

And I don't post to bash Hogan.

 

You'd figure that someone who spends so much time studying my every move would not have missed my posts about how I was enjoying the current Hogan stuff more than most of what is going on in the WWF.

 

I said good for him, I'm glad he got such a great moment at Mania, and the next night on Raw, and said that the WWF should ride him as long as they can, and get as much money out of him as possible.

 

I even admitted I was wrong about Hogan in a thread started by RickyB.

 

My RVD comments were all made at a time when he was being grossly misused.  But he's not anymore...and thus my RVD posts are less, and more focused on his day to day matches/push/what have you.  I beleive that RVD is exactly where he should be.  The most over man in the midcard...with the midcard belt.

 

And HHH does suck.  If he weren't positioned at the top of the company...it wouldn't be as big of an issue.  But he is.

 

Since when do I act like I "run" the board?  Anybody?  I get along with everyone who has something usefull to say.  I ended up getting along with The Hulkster...because he was able to make a point and back it up.  I even get along with Best Buy Team Memeber 2000...Hell I defended him in the General Chat forum because I LIKE opinionated posters who back up what they say.  He does.  The Hulkster does.

 

You do not, Hogan Made Wrestling.

 

You are the problem here.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<Quote (mastermind @ Mar. 27 2002,11:06)

Now I think Masked Yodeller said it best. He suddenly became undisputed champion and people were like what the hell. I mean I can't remember exactly, but didn't Austin thrash him on television during a match on RAW before Vengence? Jericho was looking like a bitch before he won the title. I agree with the poster who said Jericho was NEVER mega-over. Best buy's argument is pretty sound.

 

As much as I like it when people agree with me, I think that your misunderstanding what I'm saying.

 

Jericho wasn't over enough through no fault of his own.  He was as over as a heel as his charcter would allow him.  Since his character was portrayed as an incompetent boob that the fans could and should look down on as a fraudulent champion, that's what the fans did.  If he had won some matches clean, and been portrayed as an asshole who the fans should hate, but an asshole that is a *credible* champion, he would have gotten tons more heat, and his reign wouldn't have been the disaster that it was.>>>

 

 

Well, there were a lot of small things. Ross basically portraying Jericho as not wanting to give Maven a World Title shot right after Royal Rumble (rather than the more intelligent booking of having Chris grant a title shot to a horribly overmatched opponent) hurt. Jericho basically getting totally ignored after the NWO PPV on TV killed him. Chris having to play toadie to Steph killed him.

 

I'd love to see Hunter (whom I actually like in the ring for the most part) try and get over with the exact same push Jericho had. Let's have Jericho beat Hunter consistently, have Hunter almost never beat a big name (and cleanly? Not a chance), have Hunter not get MENTIONED for almost entire TV shows, and have Hunter play Steph's gofer.

 

Let's see how over HHH would be.

 

 

<<<This goes the same for Angle's first heel run with the title.  He had the same problems as Jericho. >>>

 

 

Now the question is---will HHH (or any WWF ME'er) do for Jericho what Austin did for Angle? Will anybody wish to portray Jericho as a somewhat dorky badass? Angle had the benefit of the Benoit feud and then Steve making him look like a total monster to FINALLY give him credibility.

                                  -=Mike

 

...Who kinda misses the Angle v Austin feud

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

ahem...

 

HELL YEAH ON THE ANGLE vs. AUSTIN FEUD.

 

That is all.

[Guest]

this all sounds like doom and gloom and baby it is: people got 2 face facts, steph is in the business for life and if her a triple h stay together then he will be around forever as well and something tells me things are going to get worse before they get better. as for jericho he could have been a bona fide top guy by now if it wasnt for for triple h and steph the big boned bitch, i was watching the video the wwf released on him last year and his match with triple h at fully loaded was great, that is why steph and triple h fucked this angle up so much- because bottom line is triple h is that damn afraid of people with more talent, and the glass ceiling is getting thicker all the time i just feel sorry for the likes of rvd, give it a few weeks and he will be doing the job to spike dudley on heat

[Guest The Masked Yodeler]

Angle had the benefit of the Benoit feud and then Steve making him look like a total monster to FINALLY give him credibility.

 

Angle doesn't have credibility.  While Austin put him over perfectly, and made him look like a million bucks, he's no better off today than he was before the feud.

 

First, the fans weren't behind him.  Angle was pushed as the number one babyface, but the fans wanted The Rock and RVD.  This was because of Angle's "geeky" gimmick.  The fans want to cheer cool people, and Angle wasn't cool by any stretch.  If they had taken Angle's "Olympic Badass" heel gimick and made that a face, it would have worked a lot better than taking Angle's "Olympic Crybaby Dork" heel gimmick and making it a face.

 

Secondly, Angle lost all the credibility he had gained the second he turned heel and joined the Alliance.  At the time, the turn made no sense, and it made Kurt look like a moron, and fans don't respect morons.  But even worse than that, he went back to his dorky chickenshit heel gimmick, which may be entertaining, but it doesn't work on a main event level, because it's a midcard gimmick, not a main event gimmick.  If Angle had turned heel and taken his "Olympic Badass" gimmick and made the Big Shows and Kanes of the WWF tap out clean, he would stayed credible.  And everytime Kurt starts to channel the badass gimmick, which is a main event gimmick and would get over huge, the next week he's out there doing spinaroonies and talking jive, which makes him look like a complete goof.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Angle had the benefit of the Benoit feud and then Steve making him look like a total monster to FINALLY give him credibility.

 

Angle doesn't have credibility.  While Austin put him over perfectly, and made him look like a million bucks, he's no better off today than he was before the feud.

 

First, the fans weren't behind him.  Angle was pushed as the number one babyface, but the fans wanted The Rock and RVD.  This was because of Angle's "geeky" gimmick.  The fans want to cheer cool people, and Angle wasn't cool by any stretch.  If they had taken Angle's "Olympic Badass" heel gimick and made that a face, it would have worked a lot better than taking Angle's "Olympic Crybaby Dork" hell gimmick and making it a face.

 

Secondly, Angle lost all the credibility he had gained the second he turned heel and joined the Alliance.  At the time, the turn made no sense, and it made Kurt look like a moron, and fans don't respect morons.  But even worse than that, he went back to his dorky chickenshit heel gimmick, which may be entertaining, but it doesn't work on a main event level, because it's a midcard gimmick, not a main event gimmick.  If Angle had turned heel and taken his "Olympic Badass" gimmick and made the Big Shows and Kanes of the WWF tap out clean, he would stayed credible.  And everytime Kurt starts to channel the badass gimmick, which is a main event gimmick and would get over huge, the next week he's out there doing spinaroonies and talking jive, which makes him look like a complete goof.

A-FUCKING-Men!

 

I had much of the same problem with Austin's heel turn last year. He started out as crybaby pussy in the mold of your average chickenshit heel and feuded with Hosstaker. After that abomination of a feud, they started getting on track with the psychotic, paranoid Austin which is when the crowds FINALLY started to accept the heel turn.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<Quote  

Angle had the benefit of the Benoit feud and then Steve making him look like a total monster to FINALLY give him credibility.

 

 

Angle doesn't have credibility.  While Austin put him over perfectly, and made him look like a million bucks, he's no better off today than he was before the feud.>>>

 

 

I disagree honestly. If they slapped the World Title around his waist tomorrow, he'd not suffer at all for it. The WWF still occasionally has him go "Olympic" on people and beat the crap out of them. He's also the most over heel in the promotion.

 

 

<<<First, the fans weren't behind him.  Angle was pushed as the number one babyface, but the fans wanted The Rock and RVD.  This was because of Angle's "geeky" gimmick.  The fans want to cheer cool people, and Angle wasn't cool by any stretch.  If they had taken Angle's "Olympic Badass" heel gimick and made that a face, it would have worked a lot better than taking Angle's "Olympic Crybaby Dork" heel gimmick and making it a face.>>>

 

 

Well, he didn't revert to dorky "Bob Backlund" face until after 9/11---and that completely killed his heat. Before that, he was mega-over and he basically mocked Steve incessantly.

 

 

<<<Secondly, Angle lost all the credibility he had gained the second he turned heel and joined the Alliance.  At the time, the turn made no sense, and it made Kurt look like a moron, and fans don't respect morons.  But even worse than that, he went back to his dorky chickenshit heel gimmick, which may be entertaining, but it doesn't work on a main event level, because it's a midcard gimmick, not a main event gimmick.>>>

 

 

I agree that he plays dork too often---but he is still allowed to occasionally look dominant. Heck, Kane didn't just steamroll him.

 

 

<<<If Angle had turned heel and taken his "Olympic Badass" gimmick and made the Big Shows and Kanes of the WWF tap out clean, he would stayed credible.  And everytime Kurt starts to channel the badass gimmick, which is a main event gimmick and would get over huge, the next week he's out there doing spinaroonies and talking jive, which makes him look like a complete goof. >>>

 

 

I agree---but if they stopped the talking jive stuff, he'd be legit inside of a week, honestly. His problems are easily fixed, IMHO.

                            -=Mike

[Guest Loss4Words]

See, regardless of how weak a champ is portrayed as, he usually goes on a rampage right after he loses the titles destroying everyone and everything in sight and ends up a little more over because of it. Jericho got to beat up a security guard in a canned segment then leave the show, before bumping for HHH and jobbing to him and his woman in an interview segment. The WWF DOES NOT WANT Jericho to be a success because he's everything that their booking philosophy says SHOULDN'T get over.

[Guest The Masked Yodeler]

I think that Angle's constant flipping from Dork to Badass has hurt him more than if he was always a dork.  The inconsistancy in his character really hurts him.  For example, Kurt plays the badass for a week and destroys The Big Show, for example.  The fans "hate" him because he's a jerk who mauled a "beloved" babyface.  Then the next week, he comes out and cuts a comical promo on The Big Show and does a bunch of spinaroonies with Booker T.  The fans don't "hate" him anymore because he's no longer threatening, and that heat disappates and is replaced with the heat that annoying mid-card heels get.  After a couple of weeks of dorking it up, Angle "goes Olympic" on Edge.  Because he's no longer the annoying dork, that heat disapates and is replaced by the heat that threatening heels get.

 

As you can see, while Angle gets heat either way, it doesn't accumulate the way that it would if he had a consistent character.

 

I disagree honestly. If they slapped the World Title around his waist tomorrow, he'd not suffer at all for it. The WWF still occasionally has him go "Olympic" on people and beat the crap out of them. He's also the most over heel in the promotion

 

And if Angle won the WWF Title on Smackdown next week, he would only be in a slightly better postion then he was when he won the title for the first time.  He's not presented as a guy at the same level as HHH, The Rock, Austin, or Hogan.  And if he won the WWF Title, in the eyes of the fans, he'd be an unworthy champion, and would have to prove himself all over again.

 

Well, he didn't revert to dorky "Bob Backlund" face until after 9/11---and that completely killed his heat. Before that, he was mega-over and he basically mocked Steve incessantly.

 

That's not true.  The night after InVasion he did a goofy skit with the aPa in which he drank beer for the very first time.  He switched from Badass to Dork every five minutes, and it didn't work at all.

 

I agree---but if they stopped the talking jive stuff, he'd be legit inside of a week, honestly. His problems are easily fixed, IMHO.

 

It would take longer than a week.  And it would take more than just giving him the "Olympic Badass" character.  He would have to be presented on the shows as being a tip-top heel, with the corresponding amount of TV time and the corresponding positioning of his feuds.

 

You can't curtain-jerk the show and be on for a total of 10 minutes and be the top heel.  Just ask Jericho.

[Guest]

Regarding Angle, I feel that he suffers tremendously from a lack of a defining character. Since the beginning of 2001, he went from a lame-duck champ to a badass (breaking S2H's ankle), to a whiner (Benoit steals his medals), to a badass again (feuding with Shane, beating up Spike & Tajiri), to a go-fer (sibling rivalry with Austin & Vince), to a PC Stone Cold clone (post-InVasion, Milk-a-mania), to a Del Wilkes/Lex Luger (post-9/11), to a turncoat (joining the Alliance), to a goof ("I learned this on the street, Lance" & "To quote Shakira, 'Wherever, whenever'"), to a badass again (suplexing Kane on a table, slamming a door on Kane) and now a wigger with the recent stuff with Booker T. I don't know what Angle will be like next week, but I don't think all these character changes are really helpul, although, if not for anything else, it shows versatility.