Guest Downhome Posted June 10, 2003 Report Posted June 10, 2003 I've always wondered this, that's all. If some ARE predetermined, then how do the guys in the ring go at it? Are they STILL trying to inflict pain simply holding enough back to make sure who is supposed to win wins, or what? Yes, this is a totally newbie question, but like most of you know, I'm totally in the dark on this on. Sincerely, ...Downhome...
Guest Kid Kablam Posted June 10, 2003 Report Posted June 10, 2003 I remember hearing that Pancrase had some pre-determined fights. I think they had Shamrock win because he was their most marketable asset. I could be wrong. Anyway, as far as I know, all MMA competitions are legit competitions.
Guest razazteca Posted June 10, 2003 Report Posted June 10, 2003 I think some early UFCs are suspect especially the Pete Williams vs TK match.
Guest RavishingRickRudo Posted June 10, 2003 Report Posted June 10, 2003 I am 99.9999999% sure that the UFC has never done a work. However, they have been able to manipulate things. Like Ken Shamrock - pushed mainly because of his look. He didn't deserve to be in the first 'Superfight' with 3 time tournament champion Royce Gracie - but he was there anyways. Royce's role was manipulated as well - one of the creators of the UFC was his brother Rorion Gracie. The UFC was mainly created to showcase Brazilian/Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Pride is known to work some matches, usually with Naoya Ogawa in them. The Nobuhiko Takada/Mark Coleman fight was said to be worked (though Coleman has denied this) because Takada beating Coleman is absurd, and Takada/Otsuka was said to be worked because they used a freakin snap vertical suplex in it. But nowadays, Pride fights aren't worked. How is a worked shoot done? Yeah, they hit each other hard, make it look competitive, but one fighter takes a dive.
Guest Downhome Posted June 10, 2003 Report Posted June 10, 2003 How is a worked shoot done? Yeah, they hit each other hard, make it look competitive, but one fighter takes a dive. So it's like boxing? Thanks a lot, it's just one of those questions ya know, heh.
Guest Bannable Offense Posted June 10, 2003 Report Posted June 10, 2003 Like RRR said, Pride has had worked shoot fights in the past, with Naoya Ogawa being a notable contender in alot of them. However, they haven't had any worked shoots in long time. Feel free to correct my errors if I'm wrong here, but I think part of the reason comes from Pride's desire to come stateside and that you can't have worked matches if you want to hold an MMA event in the US.
Guest RavishingRickRudo Posted June 10, 2003 Report Posted June 10, 2003 I'd just say that it's because in the past they needed to do some works, but now they don't. Fighters have gotten so good that any potential match up is worth seeing.
Guest Lei Tong Posted June 10, 2003 Report Posted June 10, 2003 Pancrase had a lot of works in their first 3 years. Around 1996, they started to go with more shoots, and by 1999, when they started going to full MMA rules, they prettty much did away with them.
Guest Devin Posted June 11, 2003 Report Posted June 11, 2003 The last PRIDE fight that was a work (to my knowledge) was Shamrock/Frye.
Guest Devin Posted June 12, 2003 Report Posted June 12, 2003 Shamrock vs Frye wasent a work. Yes it was.
Guest Jimmy Saint Posted June 12, 2003 Report Posted June 12, 2003 There is noway you could possibly prove it was. I would like to see you try and explain exactly why and how it was a worked match though. Someone told someone who told someone else who posted it on Sherdog forum ain't exatcly gonna cut it either.
Guest Devin Posted June 12, 2003 Report Posted June 12, 2003 There is noway you could possibly prove it was. I would like to see you try and explain exactly why and how it was a worked match though. Someone told someone who told someone else who posted it on Sherdog forum ain't exatcly gonna cut it either. And there's no way you can "prove" it wasn't, but I'll bite... First off, Pride spent a good amount of money on Frye, and were afraid they weren't going to get their money's worth. Even though he beat Yvel by DQ, he was far from impressive in the match. So they decide to put him in a fight with Shamrock, hoping it will draw big numbers, obviously. Secondly, the whole "tension" between the two was bullshit. I was *in* the resturaunt in West Hollywood, three blocks from the Gracie Dojo, where they were about to brawl. They were sitting two tables apart for thirty minutes and had no problem, even flashing each other a slight grin. Then once the cameras and everything are there, all the sudden they have a problem with each other??? Bullshit. Third, it was reported that Shamrock recieved $200,000 to take the fall, which I obviously can't confirm. But it would certainly explain Shamrock's wife looking happy as can be after he husband just lost one of the biggest fights in his career, wouldn't it? Don't you think she'd be upset that her husband just lost such a big fight, when he comes up to her after the fight? Finally, just watch the fucking fight. It was practically Hogan vs. Warrior II, with the way it played out. They sit there and hold each other's shoulders while trading (obviously pulled) punches. Shamrock's supposed to be the best ankle lock specialist in the world, yet Frye can sit there and take it all that time? Not only that, but they put the ankle lock on each other, like it's straight out of a movie, or something. Basically, my ultimate prove is the fight itself. Watch the match again, and there's no way you can tell me it wasn't fixed. I was expecting to see the ref start calling spots at any time.
Guest BionicRedneck Posted June 13, 2003 Report Posted June 13, 2003 It wasn't a work. If they wanted to make Frye look impressive wouldn't he have won by KO, or submission? not a dubious points decision. And Kenny was pretty badly marked for a guy who had just been in a worked fight. Considering both have Pro-wrestling experience they would know how to pull punches, and they certainly weren't.
Guest NoSelfWorth Posted June 13, 2003 Report Posted June 13, 2003 If Frye v Shamrock was a work, it would have come out by now. It wasn't a work, deal with it.
Guest Jimmy Saint Posted June 13, 2003 Report Posted June 13, 2003 The whole Ortiz vs ken press conference was probably set up as well. Its to help sell the fight. Boxers have been doing it for years doesent mean the resulting fight is fixed. dubious argument. I would hazard a guess Shammy's wife was happy that her husband had'nt got twated and had put up a good fight and had'nt had to quit at the end of a round or had a heart attack. I would also guess he got paid around that figure for taking part in the fight in the first place. another dubious arguement. I rewatched the match. Noway was that worked or the punchs pulled. Frye is legit hard nut he paid the cost after the fight with a visit to the hospital to get his ankles checked out as they had swollen up badly. Shamrock is also another legit hard nut who is very hard to ko infact people can question his greatness but not his chin. You were waiting for the ref to call spots ? me thinks you have been watching to much pro wrestling before watching this fight. Like Noselfworth above said it wasent a work, deal with it.
Guest NoSelfWorth Posted June 13, 2003 Report Posted June 13, 2003 The whole Ortiz vs ken press conference was probably set up as well. Its to help sell the fight. Boxers have been doing it for years doesent mean the resulting fight is fixed. dubious argument. Wasn't that press conference so great ? Tito was the greatest heel with his reaction to Shamrock standing up, and threatening to beat him 'into living death'.
Guest Jimmy Saint Posted June 13, 2003 Report Posted June 13, 2003 Yeah you would have though Ken would know how to cut a better promo by now. Tito just straight up laughed in his face. Tito is a fucking knobhead for ducking Chuck but I think MMA will miss him if he gives it up. btw NoSelfWorth there was a post on the ukff abit ago asking about your whereabouts.
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