To All Progressives, Dems...

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

From MoveOn.org's PAC...

 

Dear friend,

 

I'm writing to ask you to take part in MoveOn.org's

presidential primary. Too often, the real choices in

presidential nomination processes are made long before

the real primaries. Pundits, pollsters and big donors

shouldn't be the only voices that count at this early

and important stage of the process.

 

MoveOn's primary will give at least 1.4 million people

the opportunity to make their voices heard. You can be

one of them by registering to vote in the MoveOn Primary

here:

 

  http://www.moveon.org/pac/reg/

 

 

Thank you.

 

It would be a good idea for anyone that is concerned with to whom the nomination should go. MoveOn.org's PAC has, historically, given a LOT of money to Democratic candidates running for various offices. They're holding this primary to determine who will recieve their funding; this will make the job much easier for the prospective candidate, especially with the massive amount of funds they tend to generate.

 

In addition, I know we've had this type of a thread before, but who would you (that means everyone, even conservatives... but give an honest opinion, and not just OMG BUSH RULZ LOL) prefer as the Democratic nominee for President? Subsequently, who do you think WILL win, and who do you think -- of the nine candidates -- would do the best job in the Oval Office?

 

Yes, I'm advertizing in this thread... but I'm also trying to start a conversation

 

For those who don't know who is running, the candidates are...

 

Ambassador Carol Moseley Braun

Governor Howard Dean

Senator John Edwards

Congressman Dick Gephardt

Senator Bob Graham

Senator John Kerry

Congressman Dennis Kucinich

Senator Joe Lieberman

Reverend Al Sharpton

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

 

Lieberman...

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

 

Lieberman...

You really ready to elect a guy who still wants to believe that wrestling is making kids kill each other on a regular basis? I mean no offense, maybe the ends justify the means, but being the nature of this board it's always worth asking.

 

This poll is, in effect, asking me who I'd vote for if the election was held today and I just don't know. I had an original opinion and I've changed it twice since then.

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

"You really ready to elect a guy who still wants to believe that wrestling is making kids kill each other on a regular basis?"

 

Sure, why not? Actually, I'm not going to vote for any of them, but if given the choice I'd take Joe. *shrugs*...

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

President Al Sharpton.

 

Think of that for a second.

 

Jesus.

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

We could have Tawana Brawley Day were we all roll around in poo and blame it all on the cops...

[Guest MD2020]

President Al Sharpton.

 

Think of that for a second.

 

Jesus.

Most. Entertaining. Four. Years. Ever.

 

 

I mean, man, if this ever came true....just imagine the stories you could tell your grandkids.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

and just to think..the fact that he's a Rev. is enough for me not to vote for him. That's not even CONSIDERING everything else.

[Guest Fallen Angel]

OMG BUSH RULZ LOL

 

I believe it was Gephardt I caught on the telly who seemed pretty decent and competent, but the smart money's on Joe-Joe getting the nod. Which is pretty sad, because as Jobber eluded to, he's not really with the rest of us, mentally.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

My money's on Kerry at this point getting the nomination. He seems to be the most recognizable of the major canidates.

[Guest JMA]

My money's on Kerry at this point getting the nomination. He seems to be the most recognizable of the major canidates.

He also has the whole "war hero" thing going on. He can't be accused of not being patriotic. In a perfect world I'd like to see Dean get nominated and win. But I think Gephardt will get the nod. Which is fine by me. He seems like a pretty cool guy.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

I think Gephardt's moderate status is rather overblown... he's still got the main planks of the new liberal platform down fairly well. He comes off to me as just a little bit malleable... as in, he's willing to do anything for enough money.

 

That being said, he has the most comprehensive plan for health care and seems to be fiscally conservative enough for my tastes.

 

By the way, has anyone signed up for the primary?

[Guest Cancer Marney]

He also has the whole "war hero" thing going on.

War heroes don't throw other people's medals on the steps of the Capitol. Kerry isn't a patriot or a hero; he's a liar and a hypocrite.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

By the way, has anyone signed up for the primary?

I can... since I have no affiliation. Maybe I'll vote for Sharpton.

[Guest Edwin MacPhisto]

When's the deadline? This is a good idea, but I've had so little opportunity to see anything of these candidates yet. I certainly can't make a decision at this point.

[Guest Vyce]

President Al Sharpton.

 

Think of that for a second.

 

Jesus.

Most. Entertaining. Four. Years. Ever.

 

 

I mean, man, if this ever came true....just imagine the stories you could tell your grandkids.

I think his first act in office would be to cancel the tax cuts and make those billions used for reparations.

[Guest MD2020]

That's what I'm talking about. Doing something like that right off the bat would get this nation riled up immediately. Can you imagine the discussions that would be going on...

 

Hell, by 2008, all the opposition would have to do is just say he or she will stay inside and out of the spotlight most of the time. We'd need some relaxation after 4 years of Sharpton.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

The primary is next Tuesday. Gotta register before that, though.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Marney, why do you consider him a liar?

 

You mentioned the medals incident, which would cover for "hypocrite"... however, if you want to bring up something as mundane as broken campaign promises, you could say that for anyone; your boss included.

[Guest JMA]

War heroes don't throw other people's medals on the steps of the Capitol. Kerry isn't a patriot or a hero; he's a liar and a hypocrite.

I don't know the real details on Kerry. I've just heard people saying he's a "war hero" and such (including right-wingers). This is the first time I've heard about what you are mentioning. Could you go into detail about it? I'm curious (and I'm not being sarcastic).

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

War heroes don't throw other people's medals on the steps of the Capitol. Kerry isn't a patriot or a hero; he's a liar and a hypocrite.

End of discussion. THE JUDGE AND JURY HAS SPOKEN.

 

 

Yeah, you've spent your time in enemy crosshairs, I bet. Your opinion on what constitutes a war hero is completely validated.

 

 

And yes, I recognize that the pot is calling the kettle black, but that post made my eyes roll up into my head.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

I don't know the real details on Kerry. I've just heard people saying he's a "war hero" and such (including right-wingers). This is the first time I've heard about what you are mentioning. Could you go into detail about it? I'm curious (and I'm not being sarcastic).

Marney, why do you consider him a liar?

 

Here you go, guys. Immediately relevant section from the US Veteran Dispatch article:

Kerry became even more of a press celebrity during a highly publicized "anti-war" protest when he threw medals the press reported were his over a barricade and onto the steps of the Capitol. Kerry never mentioned that the medals he so gloriously tossed were not his own.

The 1988 issue of Current Biography Yearbook explained: " . . . the ones he had discarded were not his own but had belonged to another veteran who asked him to make the gesture for him. When a 'Washington Post' reporter asked Kerry about the incident, he said: 'They're my medals. I'll do what I want with them. And there shouldn't be any expectations about them.'"

Kerry's medals have reappeared, today hanging in his Senate office, now that it is "politically correct" for a U.S. Senator to be portrayed as a Vietnam War hero.

 

you've spent your time in enemy crosshairs, I bet. Your opinion on what constitutes a war hero is completely validated.

Can the personal attacks, JotW. Either defend Kerry's record or shut your ignorant mouth. Whether or not I've been in a combat zone (which is none of your business, frankly) has no bearing whatsoever on my completely substantiated opinion of Kerry's mendacity and lack of honour.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

I did some research for the medal thing and boy, is there a lot of conflicting information. I can think we can all agree that article is intentionally spinning and he himself is probably spinning as he claims he never said he threw his own medals and always said he only threw his ribbons (which he did.) Since I can't find the full text of that Washington Post interview anywhere, God only knows what really happened. This is the third time I've tried to write a reply post but there's so much confliction it's hard to make a conclusion.

 

It's an interesting point, but I'd still vote for the guy over another 4 years of the Bush policy.

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

For anyone that cares, there's a series of articles regarding Kerry and this subject over at the Boston Globe. Here's the link to Part I. (First found out about this series via Drudge...)

 

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/package...ry/061503.shtml

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Just to put all my cards on the table, here's the Salon interview where he says he never told anybody he ditched his own medals:

 

http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/...erry/print.html

 

"There's Rusty Sachs," Kerry says. "Look at his face." Sachs is throwing one of his medals back on the steps of Congress; he's fighting back tears.

 

The moment has political ramifications, and not just because some -- like McCain -- found the spectacle of veterans tossing their medals distasteful and inappropriate. In 1984, the Wall Street Journal revealed that -- despite a speech Kerry gave in which he angrily claimed that "This administration forced us to return our medals ... These leaders denied us the integrity those symbols supposedly gave our lives" -- Kerry had actually kept his medals. The medals he threw that day belonged to others, it turned out. It was an example, the media alleged, of Kerry the phony.

 

From Kerry's perspective, of course, it was all pretty complicated and he never really understood what the brouhaha was all about. The medals were, after all, a highly personal matter. He'd ultimately decided to throw his also-important ribbons, and the medals he tossed were on behalf of some disabled vets. He never claimed to have thrown his own medals, and certainly the more important matter was that he had enlisted and fought bravely in the war, and had then come back to protest the atrocities he had participated in. And, it should be noted, in the "60 Minutes" interview with Kerry, which ran a mere four weeks after the 1971 demonstration on the Mall, Kerry refers to the "the emotion in the faces of those men who threw their medals back ... if you watch their faces, there was agony in them as they threw those things back," and so on, continuously referring to the medal-throwers in the third person, never including himself.

 

And of course, from the Extreme Spin Department, a Boston Phoenix (caution, lib paper) article reproduced on his own campaign site. The funny thing is they mention the quote that Kerry said he didn't make above:

 

http://www.johnkerry.com/site/PageServer?p...=news_2002_0420

 

As part of the VVAW protest staged on the steps of the Capitol the day following the hearings, Kerry publicly discarded the combat ribbons representing the medals he'd won. The incident would come back to haunt him. In 1984, Kerry acknowledged that on that day he threw away other people's medals as well as his ribbons. The issue came up in the 1985 Washington Post profile when Kerry was asked about the demonstration and why he hadn't thrown away his own medals -- as he certainly appeared to have done. "They're my medals. I'll do what I want with them," he said. "And there shouldn't be any expectations about them.... It's my business. I did not want to throw my medals away." Sennott reported in 1996 that Kerry discarded the ribbons of his Silver Star, along with medals given to him by other veterans in New York and Massachusetts. Kerry gave the same account to the Phoenix.

 

"I threw back my ribbons," Kerry says today. "Somebody tried to make a deal out of that and it's not a deal." The most important thing about a military award, after all, is not the physical medal or ribbon but the fact that it was awarded in the first place. People are rightly outraged if a veteran wears an unearned medal, but any Silver or Bronze Star or Purple Heart can be acquired and pinned to a uniform if a person actually won it.

 

What is a big deal, yet relatively little known, is that only months after being in the national spotlight for the VVAW, Kerry left the group. Although he kept the move relatively quiet at the time, he now says that he'd begun to have second thoughts about the group's polemical tilt. He had earlier raised concerns about others in the antiwar movement who, he thought, failed to serve the interests of veterans. (The best example of this is actress Jane Fonda, who appeared in a North Vietnamese photo inside an anti-aircraft gun turret.) "We were trying to talk to the heart of America, and some of those folks had overstayed their welcome in my judgment or been so abusive in their rhetoric that they lost the ability to communicate," says Kerry. "I resigned and left [the VVAW] because the agenda of some of the folks within the veterans' movement ultimately became confused and went way beyond just trying to end the war. There was a lot of rhetoric about every social ill and evil there was."

 

It should be noted the article Marney posted also comes with a lot of conjecture, making it sound almost traitorous that someone could participate in war and leave the battlefield thinking the war was unjust or unnecessary.

 

This doesn't mean I agree with everything Kerry did, it just means that you have choose what spin you want to believe, as there's no clear spin-free path here.