Hhh and jobbing

[Guest J*ingus]

Everyone's heard the endless arguments over whether or not HHH is a political player, and whether he uses his influence in the company to keep from getting beaten in his matches.  Well, I thought it would be informative to take a look at all of his PPV matches over the past three years, and list whether he won or lost them, and if he lost if it was clean or not.  Draw your own conclusions afterward.  

 

1999

Wrestlemania XV: lost the match via DQ

Backlash: won the match

Over the Edge: lost, DQ

Fully Loaded: won

Summerslam: lost 3-way match, but was not pinned

Unforgiven: won

No Mercy: won

Survivor Series: lost the match due to outside interference

Armageddon: won

 

2000

Royal Rumble: won

No Way Out: won

Wrestlemania XVI: won

Backlash: lost, outside interference

Judgement Day: won

King of the Ring: lost the 6-man, but was not pinned

Fully Loaded: won

Summerslam: lost due to sledgehammer shot

Unforgiven: won

No Mercy: won

Survivor Series: no contest, got dropped 40 feet in a car

Armageddon: lost the 6-way, put was not pinned

 

2001

Royal Rumble: lost, outside interference

No Way Out: won

Wrestlemania XVII: lost, CLEAN

Backlash: won

Judgement Day: lost, outside interference

 

2002

Royal Rumble: won the Rumble

No Way Out: lost due to biased referee

Wrestlemania XVIII: won

 

 

Wow.  All in all, that makes for 17 wins (8 of which were clean wins by the way), 12 losses either by screwjob or where he wasn't pinned, 1 no contest, and 1, count it, 1 clean loss, which by the way was to the Undertaker.  So you tell me, one clean loss in three years, does HHH not like jobbing or what?

[Guest]

Becides Undertaker, I don't think Triple H lost a Match clean since 96'. Unless you want to count pin falls in 2/3 falls and the Iron Man match.

[Guest muzanisa]

Intersting to see what will happen now. I expect him to get the job back from Taker at Backlash. If he's still not over then he'll have to lose the belt in the couple of months after that. If he's still a face he'll get cheated out of the belt (run in, crooked ref, weapon attack). If however he turns heel and still loses the belt in a screwy fashion like Rock pinning McMahon then point proved I think.

[Guest MARTYEWR]

Jingus, I'm glad you started this topic because I should also point out that HHH hasn't jobbed in consecutive PPVs since 1996:

- IYH Buried Alive: pinned by Steve Austin

- Survivor Series: pinned and eliminated by Marc Mero

- IYH It's Time: pinned by Marc Mero

And even the "consecutive" argument is questionable, since the Survivor Series one was in an elimination match. Draw your own conclusions. But also, feel free to add this to your study.

[Guest Brian]

I'd like to see Austin's record from the same time, a guy who didn't need to be established as a main eventer those first two years (1999 and 2000)

[Guest J*ingus]

Okey-dokey.  Austin's record:

 

1999

Wrestlemania XV: won

Backlash: won

Over the Edge: lost, biased referee

King of the Ring: lost, biased rope

Fully Loaded: won

Summerslam: lost, CLEAN

No Mercy: lost, outside interference

 

2000

No Mercy: no contest

Survivor Series:  no contest

Armageddon: lost 6-way, but was not pinned

 

2001

Royal Rumble: won the Rumble

No Way Out: lost, CLEAN

Wrestlemania XVII: won

Backlash: won

Judgement Day: won

King of the Ring: won

Invasion: lost, turned on his own team

Summerslam: won

Unforgiven: lost, CLEAN

No Mercy: won

Survivor Series: lost, outside interference

Vengeance: won one, lost one, outside interference

 

2001

Royal Rumble: eliminated from Rumble, CLEAN

No Way Out: lost, outside interference

Wrestlemania XVIII: won

 

That makes 12 wins, 8 screwjob or non-pin losses, 2 no contests, and 4 CLEAN losses.  That record suggests a helluva lot better team player than HHH, especially since Austin was a babyface for most of this time, while HHH has been a heel.

[Guest]

What's four clean losses for a guy that's been a ME player for the better part of four years? And how does that make Austin a better team player? Three out of four of those times he lost to already established guys (Foley and HHH). That's not really any better than losing to the Undertaker.

 

Also, you have to take into account that Austin was gone for a year. Had he been in the WWF main-eventing PPVs, is record would look a bit worse.

[Guest oldschoolwrestling]

What sucks about HHH's record is that as a heel, your losses against faces are usually clean.  The faces are the ones that are supposed to lose via screwjob.  Here's hoping his quad snaps again...

[Guest dreamer420]

Remember that a lot of his wins and losses come from the time when he was tight with Steph, Vince, and Shane-O and he had them at ringside with him.  All part of being a heel is cheating to win and cheating so much that you lose.

[Guest J*ingus]

Bestbuy, 4 losses is a helluva lot better than just 1 loss.  

 

Just for the sake of completeness (and with the Smarks tape review page down, this took a LONG damn time to tally up, so be thankful)  short results for other main eventers over the same time period (and remember that I'm counting Royal Rumble and Survivor Series eliminations as losses) in order from political machines to complete jobbers:

 

Undertaker: 13 wins, 9 screwjob/nonpin losses, 1 no contest, 4 CLEAN losses.  

 

The Rock: 17 wins, 11 screwjob/nonpin losses, 5 CLEAN losses.

 

Kurt Angle: 17 wins, 10 screwjob/nonpin losses, 7 CLEAN losses.  

 

Chris Jericho: 17 wins, 7 screwjob/nonpin losses, 9 CLEAN losses.  

 

Kane: 12 wins, 11 screwjob/nonpin losses, 1 no contest, 9 CLEAN losses.  

 

 

Yep, that's right, freakin' KANE has the worst win-loss record of the entire bunch, isn't that a shocker?  And "non-jobbing politician" 'Taker has the same record as "locker room leader" Austin.  The numbers don't lie, people.

[Guest godthedog]

will you people stop bitching about how few jobs he makes?  i can count the number of times bret jobbed cleanly in the wwf on one hand & nobody's bitching about that.

[Guest Some Guy]

Jingus could you tally the #'s on Benoit and Booker T and other Smark favorites.  Just for comparison's sake and to show another reason why we like those guys?  I'd do it myself but my PWI Almanac is at my Mom's house.

 

Booker hasn't evere won a ppv in WWF I think.  Those 2 are true company men IMO.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

Booker also sucks really bad, and I can't think of a single feud he's had where he should have gone over in a PPV match.

[Guest Some Guy]

HMW, I disagree.  Booker is a very solid worker and he should have gone over Taker at the very least.  But if they really wanted to make him a star he should have beaten Rock in a singles match to win back the WCW title at No Mercy and then returned the job in a hard fought match at Unforgiven.  As it is he got over as a face at the very beginning of his WWF run and then because of the WCW name he was forced to turn heel and got way over in that role and has stayed over despite not winning a singles match on PPV.  

I'm not flaming you here but do you think that Hogan is, or ever was a better in ring worker than Booker?  I'll give you the fact the Hogan is a bigger star than Booker ever will be and a better showman.

[Guest alfdogg]

a) don't forget HHH still kept his heat after WM15

 

b) Kurt Angle was not already established, IMO.  His reign was a month shorter than Jericho's, who was made to look like a total pussy until a week before WM

 

c) how did you come up with Rock having FIVE clean losses?

 

d) DON'T compare HHH to Bret Hart

 

e) Booker should have beat the Undertaker, but UT refused, and that's why Booker hasn't been as over since.  He should have gotten at least one win over the Rock, and he should have beaten hair boy, too.  Too bad Edge was at home

 

f) you mean win at Unforgiven and return at No Mercy?

 

g) hey oldschool, remember when he tore his quad, he STILL didn't do the jo to Jericho or Benoit, and the friggin' WORLD CHAMPION STEVE BY GAWD AUSTIN had to do it instead

[Guest J*ingus]

Since you asked so nicely (and these are just their numbers in the WWF, I'm not counting other promotions, and Dusty finishes aren't counted as clean) here are the 'net favorites:

 

Chris Benoit: 9 wins, 6 screwjob/nonpin losses, 5 CLEAN losses.  

 

Booker T: 1 win, 1 nonpin loss, 6 CLEAN losses.  

 

Rob Van Dam: 5 wins, 4 CLEAN losses.  

 

So yeah, Booker T had been made a bitch, but the others don't have too much to complain about.

 

And alfdogg, Rock's five clean jobs were at Wrestlemania XV, Backlash '99, Unforgiven '99, Armageddon 2000, and Royal Rumble 2001.

[Guest oldschoolwrestling]

hey oldschool, remember when he tore his quad, he STILL didn't do the jo to Jericho or Benoit, and the friggin' WORLD CHAMPION STEVE BY GAWD AUSTIN had to do it instead

Which of course he was able to turn into a huge angle to get himself over.  That should have been used to get Jericho over.  Jericho did use it to get himself over once or twice but not to the extent HHH used it.

[Guest godthedog]

my point in comparing bret & trips was that the federation is always very protective of their top guys.  from 1999 forward, trips has been a top guy.  you can't look at his record simply as the product of his own maneuvering.  if i remember correctly, bret did 3 clean jobs in the wwf as a singles wrestler: one to owen (which he won back), one to the bulldog (which he also won back years later), and one to shawn michaels (which he was supposed to win back).  and those 3 jobs were spread out over a period of 7 years.  trips will probably continue to evade clean jobs until his career winds down & he puts over the next big thing, because the wwf wants it that way.

[Guest J*ingus]

I see what you're saying, but still have two disagreements.  

 

1. Things move a lot faster now than they did in the mid-90's.  Titles change hands more rapidly, characters turn more often, and so on.  It follows that the top guys should job more often as well.  

 

2. Bret was a babyface for all but the last six months of his WWF run, while HHH has been a heel for all but six months combined over the past three years.  Babyfaces are supposed to be able to beat the heels cleanly, right?  So how come nobody ever got to beat HHH?

[Guest Mystery Eskimo]

Exactly. HHH has been unbeatable as face or heel. When Austin was heel during the Invasion, Kurt Angle made him his bitch.

 

Why the hell couldn't the Undertaker let Booker beat him? It wouldn't even have had to be clean. God, the ego of the man must be immense.

[Guest Risk]

I may be in the minority here, but I'm sick of heels and faces, and all the "rules" concerning them.  It is as simple as this, IMO, the better wrestler should usually get a win over the wrestler not as good.  Heels and faces should not apply to characters anymore, IMO.

 

If a wrestler fights "dirty" constantly, mention that.  If he rarely doesn't and suddenly does, mention that.  That is what commentators should do IMO.  

 

Booker T should be commended for putting so many people over the SHORT time he has been in the WWF.

[Guest Some Guy]

"Booker T should be commended for putting so many people over the SHORT time he has been in the WWF."

 

I agree, but what has it gotten him? The longest PPV loosing streak in the company.  The WWF should recognize that they have a real talent, who has the size and look to be a main eventer in the company.  He has already proven that he is willing to do jobs and doesn't have a huge ego problem so they should give him a push and see what happens.  BTW a push isn't a midcard feud over a shampoo comercial and then loosing in under ten minutes on the biggest show of the year.  He came out of that feud a double looser, he lost the match and the shampoo commercial.  That's a good way to make him look a little bit more worthless to the fans.

 

I can't believe no one had brought up that HHH "jobbed" to Booker on Raw in Jan or Feb. to defend HHH.

[Guest X-Factor Corperation]

g) hey oldschool, remember when he tore his quad, he STILL didn't do the jo to Jericho or Benoit, and the friggin' WORLD CHAMPION STEVE BY GAWD AUSTIN had to do it instead

That was the plan. They didn't know Triple H was going to be injured and havintg benoit and jericho get the pin on Austin made them more impressive. Don't you want them elevated?

[Guest Mystery Eskimo]

Well, it would be interesting to see how it would work, but I think heels and faces are such an integral part of the wrestling system that it would be hard for the "casual fan" to get into it.

[Guest J*ingus]

I find myself wondering about some other guys, like Test, Regal, Tazz, X-Pac, Edge, and a few others, but don't have the time to tally them up right now.  Anyone else is more than wlecome to take a crack at it.

[Guest alfdogg]

WM 15 had interference from Vince & Foley.

 

Backlash had interference from Shane-O-Mac.

 

Both of which were instrumental in the final result.

 

I'll let Unforgiven slide, even though Bulldog used a chair on him.

 

I didn't know you were counting Royal Rumble eliminations.

[Guest alfdogg]

"Also, you have to take into account that Austin was gone for a year. Had he been in the WWF main-eventing PPVs, is record would look a bit worse."

 

HHH was gone for eight months, too.

[Guest J*ingus]

"WM 15 had interference from Vince & Foley.

Backlash had interference from Shane-O-Mac.

Both of which were instrumental in the final result."

 

When I say "clean", I mean that there was no outside interference that directly affected the finish, or that the winner wouldn't have won without.  Vince & Shane both interfered on the behalf of the guy who lost, so they don't count.  Foley's interference didn't affect either competitor, he simply punked out the interfering McMahon, and the match went on to its clean finish.  

 

"I didn't know you were counting Royal Rumble eliminations."

 

Yeah, I said that in an earlier post.  Basically, as long as it wasn't something screwy like getting hit with a chair or thrown out by someone who's already been eliminated, I'd say that losing the Rumble counts as a clean job.  (The Rumble and Survivor Series are always goldmines for finding clean losses.)

[Guest]

"g) hey oldschool, remember when he tore his quad, he STILL didn't do the jo to Jericho or Benoit, and the friggin' WORLD CHAMPION STEVE BY GAWD AUSTIN had to do it instead "

 

I can hear Jericho whispering in Triple H's ear right now:

 

'I know you just tore your quad and everything, but after I let you out of the walls of me could you please crawl into the ring so that I can pin you?'

 

This is now officially the stupidest thing I have read on this board.

[Guest Dangerous A]

"Exactly. HHH has been unbeatable as face or heel. When Austin was heel during the Invasion, Kurt Angle made him his bitch."

 

I didn't see it that way. Even when Austin lost at Unforgiven, they still protected him with the controversial "hand on the rope when he tapped" ending. Plus who was the guy who even though he kicked out of 3 stunners at summerslam, was a bloody mess? Angle. How did Angle make Ausin look like his bitch when Austin is able to get 3 stunners on the man and bloody him to a pulp? To me that doesn't make Angle look any better.

 

The topic here could be brought up for just about any superstar, heel or face. The fact is the wwf is going to protect the ME talent, regardless of position. I could point out that Austin and Rock haven't done a clean job since forever and then comes "well they are faces, so they shouldn't have to". That to me seems like bullshit. Foley did it in 2000. Even if he wasn't going to retire, the jobbing wouldn't hurt him because he was so over. Again, if you don't like HHH going over so much, blame Vince. He is the end all in this whole scenario. Obviously he feels HHH shouldn't have to clean job all that much. Don't necessarily rush to judgements just because HHH pokes Steph the writer. Why don't people come down on Vince a little more? How about Pat Patterson? He is the one who usually comes up with the finishes. Why doesn't anyone lay anything on that man. I guess he just listens to the tv people and says fuck Vince's wishes, huh? Remember, Vince is a bigger part of the tv than anyone. The argument that he isn't there all the time to supervise is shit. The man watches his programs. If he wasn't there and saw something he didn't like, one phone call changes it.